This issue is being discussed by the New Zealand parliament and I was wondering what some of my friends from around the world thought.
xtramsn.co.nz/news/0,,3779-3370540,00.html
Now, I have always believed that information is power, and that being informed is one of the most important things when it comes to making wise decisions. And I have also always been the type of person who challenges what I believe to be unhealthy views on sex and sexuality. However, I know that I was not mature enough to start having sexual intercourse at 16 (the current age of consent in New Zealand), let alone 12! So what do you think?
Sum sui generis
Vs
Lowering the age of consent
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variol son
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Lowering the age of consent
You do not hear, and so you cannot be redeemed.
In the name of their ancient pride and humiliation, they had made commitments with no possible outcome except bereavement.
He knew only that they had never striven to reject the boundaries of themselves.
In the name of their ancient pride and humiliation, they had made commitments with no possible outcome except bereavement.
He knew only that they had never striven to reject the boundaries of themselves.
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duchess of malfi
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[Syl]
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Twelve is young, but I think it's only really a problem if the partner is older (and the proposal seems to clearly limit the gap to 2 years). When it comes down to how smart people are about sex, I don't think a 12 year-old virgin is any less messed up than a 22 year-old one.
A lot of it comes down to the effectiveness of law, as well. Will the number of 12 year-olds having sex increase if it's made legal? I doubt it.
A lot of it comes down to the effectiveness of law, as well. Will the number of 12 year-olds having sex increase if it's made legal? I doubt it.
"It is not the literal past that rules us, save, possibly, in a biological sense. It is images of the past. Each new historical era mirrors itself in the picture and active mythology of its past or of a past borrowed from other cultures. It tests its sense of identity, of regress or new achievement against that past.”
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duchess of malfi
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variol son
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And now for an update.
xtramsn.co.nz/news/0,,3882-3371674,00.html
New Zealand has a very large number of people under the age of 16 having sex already, so it is possible that with the law change people will start having sex even younger (10?).
Our sex education system is also pretty elementary, more of a gesture than anything else, although it is a good place from which to start. New Zealand is the type of country that likes solutions to come from the government, and doesn't seem to take too kindly to the suggestion that the people might need to be more educated about a particular topic.
Sum sui generis
Vs
xtramsn.co.nz/news/0,,3882-3371674,00.html
New Zealand has a very large number of people under the age of 16 having sex already, so it is possible that with the law change people will start having sex even younger (10?).
Our sex education system is also pretty elementary, more of a gesture than anything else, although it is a good place from which to start. New Zealand is the type of country that likes solutions to come from the government, and doesn't seem to take too kindly to the suggestion that the people might need to be more educated about a particular topic.
Sum sui generis
Vs
You do not hear, and so you cannot be redeemed.
In the name of their ancient pride and humiliation, they had made commitments with no possible outcome except bereavement.
He knew only that they had never striven to reject the boundaries of themselves.
In the name of their ancient pride and humiliation, they had made commitments with no possible outcome except bereavement.
He knew only that they had never striven to reject the boundaries of themselves.
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Oh, VS!!!!
This is so wrong!
First I don't agree with sex before marriage, but children making children creates a societal anarchy, where the parents of children raise thier children's children, and forfeits the possibility of a good strong and secure living environment.
TWELVE!!!!
May the lord forgive such depravity.....
-B
This is so wrong!
First I don't agree with sex before marriage, but children making children creates a societal anarchy, where the parents of children raise thier children's children, and forfeits the possibility of a good strong and secure living environment.
TWELVE!!!!
May the lord forgive such depravity.....
-B
"Fortunate circumstances do not equate to high ideals."
"Mostly muffins sir."- My answer in response to the question posed by the officer, "Son, do you have anything on you I should know about?"
His response: "Holy $&!^. He's not kidding! Look at all these muffins!"
"Mostly muffins sir."- My answer in response to the question posed by the officer, "Son, do you have anything on you I should know about?"
His response: "Holy $&!^. He's not kidding! Look at all these muffins!"
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A Gunslinger
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12 is way too young. I think there is a cse to made for 16, so long as their partners are not more than 18, perhaps 21....the problems are:
1) Enforcement. What a nigtmare that would be
2) Our school systems and social infrastructutre ought to teach kids the facts, and how to be responsible. If the ALL facts are made avaialble, consent is INFORMED rather than simply passively assured. This should be true no matter the age of consent. Preaching abstinence is not nearly enough.
1) Enforcement. What a nigtmare that would be
2) Our school systems and social infrastructutre ought to teach kids the facts, and how to be responsible. If the ALL facts are made avaialble, consent is INFORMED rather than simply passively assured. This should be true no matter the age of consent. Preaching abstinence is not nearly enough.
"I use my gun whenever kindness fails"
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duchess of malfi
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I agree.Caer Sylvanus wrote:Twelve is young, but I think it's only really a problem if the partner is older (and the proposal seems to clearly limit the gap to 2 years). When it comes down to how smart people are about sex, I don't think a 12 year-old virgin is any less messed up than a 22 year-old one.
A lot of it comes down to the effectiveness of law, as well. Will the number of 12 year-olds having sex increase if it's made legal? I doubt it.
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variol son
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New Zealand rates of both teenage pregnancy and teenage STD's are rising steadily, which would indicate that we aren't teaching our children about sex sufficiently now, when the age of consent is 16. I'm not sure if this would change just because the law is changed.
Also, there are some inconsistancies. The government is proposing raising the drinking age back up to 20 (the lowered it to 18 3 years ago), and the age of consent only really applies to females, and males who have homosexual sex. A male between the age of 12 and 15 is pretty much disregarded by the law as far as sexual consent goes, as long as he has sex with a woman who is of legal age. Recently a 30-something year old woman had sex with a 11 or 12 year old boy and was not prosecuted because of a loop-hole in th law in regards to gender.
Sum sui generis
Vs
Also, there are some inconsistancies. The government is proposing raising the drinking age back up to 20 (the lowered it to 18 3 years ago), and the age of consent only really applies to females, and males who have homosexual sex. A male between the age of 12 and 15 is pretty much disregarded by the law as far as sexual consent goes, as long as he has sex with a woman who is of legal age. Recently a 30-something year old woman had sex with a 11 or 12 year old boy and was not prosecuted because of a loop-hole in th law in regards to gender.
Sum sui generis
Vs
You do not hear, and so you cannot be redeemed.
In the name of their ancient pride and humiliation, they had made commitments with no possible outcome except bereavement.
He knew only that they had never striven to reject the boundaries of themselves.
In the name of their ancient pride and humiliation, they had made commitments with no possible outcome except bereavement.
He knew only that they had never striven to reject the boundaries of themselves.
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Fist and Faith
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It's interesting that, until the last couple centuries, the human race always had sex at such young ages. Hormones go berserk in young teens, they have babies, then die 15-20 years later. That's how the species works.
But the average lifespan increased, cultural mores changed, and the age that was considered appropriate for sex went up. Now it's usually considered wrong, even without the consideration of pregnancy and std's.
Of course it must be consentual. Otherwise, it's rape, no matter what ages are involved.
As for the age, I'm with the camp that the only illegal aspect should be in regards to the age difference. Many males (I won't say men) in their 20's and older would talk girls of 12 into sex if they didn't think they'd go to jail for it. Or, rather, I should say many more males, since this kind of filth is already happening. Clearly, a 12 yo girl isn't able to fully understand all the ramifications of what she's about to do when she is baing manipulated by an "adult" who knows how to work people.
But I don't think it should be illegal if the two are nearly the same age. A sociology teacher discussed this. Two kids go under the bridge to watch the submarine races. The cops spot them, call the parents, and tell them not to do it again. The next day, on the boy's 18th birthday, they go back to watch more submarine races. The cops spot them again, and charge the boy with rape of a minor. He's bailed out of jail. Next day, on the girl's 18th birthday, these two are caught yet a third time (submarine afficionados), and they're both arrested for indecent exposure.
I don't think emotional damage from having sex at a young age is caused by the age, but by the ignorance. Having the idea that having sex with a boy is the ultimate, perfect act that will determine the rest of your life, is unrealistic. Going into sex with these stereotypical expectations, then having them shatter, is, I suspect, the cause of the pain. Perhaps girls should know that:
-boys don't have any freakin' idea what they're doing.
-it is nearly impossible for people of any age to figure out where lust ends and love begins, and that when a boy says he loves you and will spend the rest of his life with you, he may very well think he means it, even if he feels differently in the near future. And that saying you will give in only if he says either of these things might not give you a "happily ever after" ending.
-you might not love him tomorrow.
I'm going to tell my girls these things. Also, I'll tell them that, although I will love them absolutely and completely even if they are stupid enough to get pregnant at a young age, they are going to raise the child, not me! I won't kick them out of the house, because I want them to finish school, and that kind of thing. But I'm not babysitting while they go to the mall with friends. I'm not getting up in the middle of the night.
My son will know that I'll damned well make sure he does his share of the work of raising any child he fathers. (Although if he's got the charm of his father, this isn't an issue anyway. *whew*)
I'll also make sure they know all about std's. Along with listing nasty things that'll happen to their bodies, I'll make them sit through the episodes of Life Goes On that I taped, so they can watch how one night's pleasure can lead to a shortened lifetime of pain, turmoil, pain, regret, pain, loss, and pain.
However, I also want them to understand that sex is NOT an evil thing. It is not a weakness, or a punishment, or something shameful. It is natural, the very survival of the species, and can be an extraordinary experience! The fact that they will want it, badly, is not something I want them to fear, regret, or think is wrong. And although I want them to use their brains as much as possible when the time comes, I don't want them to feel any self-revulsion if they do end up doing the VERY most natural thing in life (Maybe second in natural acts only to dying) at the time of their lives that nature is most telling them to do it. And I surely can't see throwing anybody into a juvenile detention center for it.
But the average lifespan increased, cultural mores changed, and the age that was considered appropriate for sex went up. Now it's usually considered wrong, even without the consideration of pregnancy and std's.
Of course it must be consentual. Otherwise, it's rape, no matter what ages are involved.
As for the age, I'm with the camp that the only illegal aspect should be in regards to the age difference. Many males (I won't say men) in their 20's and older would talk girls of 12 into sex if they didn't think they'd go to jail for it. Or, rather, I should say many more males, since this kind of filth is already happening. Clearly, a 12 yo girl isn't able to fully understand all the ramifications of what she's about to do when she is baing manipulated by an "adult" who knows how to work people.
But I don't think it should be illegal if the two are nearly the same age. A sociology teacher discussed this. Two kids go under the bridge to watch the submarine races. The cops spot them, call the parents, and tell them not to do it again. The next day, on the boy's 18th birthday, they go back to watch more submarine races. The cops spot them again, and charge the boy with rape of a minor. He's bailed out of jail. Next day, on the girl's 18th birthday, these two are caught yet a third time (submarine afficionados), and they're both arrested for indecent exposure.
I don't think emotional damage from having sex at a young age is caused by the age, but by the ignorance. Having the idea that having sex with a boy is the ultimate, perfect act that will determine the rest of your life, is unrealistic. Going into sex with these stereotypical expectations, then having them shatter, is, I suspect, the cause of the pain. Perhaps girls should know that:
-boys don't have any freakin' idea what they're doing.
-it is nearly impossible for people of any age to figure out where lust ends and love begins, and that when a boy says he loves you and will spend the rest of his life with you, he may very well think he means it, even if he feels differently in the near future. And that saying you will give in only if he says either of these things might not give you a "happily ever after" ending.
-you might not love him tomorrow.
I'm going to tell my girls these things. Also, I'll tell them that, although I will love them absolutely and completely even if they are stupid enough to get pregnant at a young age, they are going to raise the child, not me! I won't kick them out of the house, because I want them to finish school, and that kind of thing. But I'm not babysitting while they go to the mall with friends. I'm not getting up in the middle of the night.
My son will know that I'll damned well make sure he does his share of the work of raising any child he fathers. (Although if he's got the charm of his father, this isn't an issue anyway. *whew*)
I'll also make sure they know all about std's. Along with listing nasty things that'll happen to their bodies, I'll make them sit through the episodes of Life Goes On that I taped, so they can watch how one night's pleasure can lead to a shortened lifetime of pain, turmoil, pain, regret, pain, loss, and pain.
However, I also want them to understand that sex is NOT an evil thing. It is not a weakness, or a punishment, or something shameful. It is natural, the very survival of the species, and can be an extraordinary experience! The fact that they will want it, badly, is not something I want them to fear, regret, or think is wrong. And although I want them to use their brains as much as possible when the time comes, I don't want them to feel any self-revulsion if they do end up doing the VERY most natural thing in life (Maybe second in natural acts only to dying) at the time of their lives that nature is most telling them to do it. And I surely can't see throwing anybody into a juvenile detention center for it.
All lies and jest
Still a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest -Paul Simon
Still a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest -Paul Simon
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duchess of malfi
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A good friend just told me about a talk she had with her very beautiful nine year old daughter the other day.
Out of the mouths of babies.Mom: What would you do if a boy told you you're pretty?
Daughter: I would say thank you.
Mom: What if he said you're so pretty he wants a kiss on your cheek?
Daughter: I would tell him no, but he's welcome to kiss my be-hind.
Love as thou wilt.
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Fist and Faith
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Furls Fire
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this is idiocy...no child of 12 is mature enough for sex. Yes, there are many that do it. But making it legal for someone to have sex with a twelve year-old is just plain sick. A 12 year old is a CHILD. And just because people in other cultures were having sex with children or as children certainly doesn't make it right. What's next? Letting 5 year olds carry guns around because some kids are doing it anyway????
This world is growing more and more insane with each passing day...
This world is growing more and more insane with each passing day...
And I believe in you
altho you never asked me too
I will remember you
and what life put you thru.
~fly fly little wing, fly where only angels sing~
~this world was never meant for one as beautiful as you~
...for then I could fly away and be at rest. Sweet rest, Mom. We all love and miss you.
altho you never asked me too
I will remember you
and what life put you thru.
~fly fly little wing, fly where only angels sing~
~this world was never meant for one as beautiful as you~
...for then I could fly away and be at rest. Sweet rest, Mom. We all love and miss you.
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Most kids today that are 12 probably shouldn't be having sex. Most kids that age aren't mature enough. The key word is "most."
I could've handled sex when I was twelve, but I had a lot more life experience in those 12 years than many have in twice that number. If you go back several hundred years, you'll see that most people were no longer children by the time they turned 12. Chances are that any day they could be drafted into a war, bring in their portion of the harvest, or parenting a child. Things like that can make you grow up fast.
To me, though, the question is what right do we have to impose arbitrary standards on others? We can't (or shouldn't, at least) forbid by law all that with which we don't agree. There has to be a line that says, "beyond this, unless you're a ward of the state, we can't with any degree of certainty say it is detrimental to society." Yes, twelve is probably too young, but I think it's better to err on the side of liberty. If we're not going to legislate who can and cannot have kids, we shouldn't legislate how they raise them.
If it's legal to raise your kid to be a Klan member, how can we say it shouldn't be legal to raise them to be promiscuous?
I could've handled sex when I was twelve, but I had a lot more life experience in those 12 years than many have in twice that number. If you go back several hundred years, you'll see that most people were no longer children by the time they turned 12. Chances are that any day they could be drafted into a war, bring in their portion of the harvest, or parenting a child. Things like that can make you grow up fast.
To me, though, the question is what right do we have to impose arbitrary standards on others? We can't (or shouldn't, at least) forbid by law all that with which we don't agree. There has to be a line that says, "beyond this, unless you're a ward of the state, we can't with any degree of certainty say it is detrimental to society." Yes, twelve is probably too young, but I think it's better to err on the side of liberty. If we're not going to legislate who can and cannot have kids, we shouldn't legislate how they raise them.
If it's legal to raise your kid to be a Klan member, how can we say it shouldn't be legal to raise them to be promiscuous?
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variol son
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Due to huge public backlash, the clause has been removed from the proposed law change. We have just legalized prostitution in NZ, so we should probably tackle the big moral issues one at a time, and then take a moment to recover.
Sum sui generis
Vs
Sum sui generis
Vs
You do not hear, and so you cannot be redeemed.
In the name of their ancient pride and humiliation, they had made commitments with no possible outcome except bereavement.
He knew only that they had never striven to reject the boundaries of themselves.
In the name of their ancient pride and humiliation, they had made commitments with no possible outcome except bereavement.
He knew only that they had never striven to reject the boundaries of themselves.
-
Fist and Faith
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