What If questions about the end of the Second Chronicles

[Vexis Larseker]

I have a couple of What If questions I've been thinking about regarding the end of White Gold Wielder. I've developed some opinions over time, but I'm not married to them, and am interested in hearing the opinions of others. Also, I apologize if these questions have already been debated here long before, and I am just rehashing old arguments.

Near the end of WGW, Linden has been possessed by a Raver, and is watching as Thomas Covenant prepares to give his ring to Lord Foul. She breaks free from the will of the Raver and reaches out and possesses Covenant with her health sense, forcing him to withdraw his hand. She relents though when she realizes she should trust Covenant and Covenant then hands his ring to Foul. My first What If question is: What if Linden had instead tried to fight Lord Foul herself at this point? Could she have won?

I don't think she could have won. It seems to me to be continually hinted at that Lord Foul is an extension of Covenant (or a mirror image of some type), and that only he can face and defeat Lord Foul. Or, if she had won, I think her possession of Covenant would have tainted her later creation of the Staff of Law, and it would have been corrupt. The Sunbane could not have been defeated with it, and Lord Foul would regain his strength from it. Either way, I think Covenant would have been killed in the battle, so that he received the wound in his chest, mimicking his condition in the real world.

After Covenant has defeated Lord Foul, he urges Linden to take the Ring. She hesitates until Pitchwife and the First enter the room, almost allowing Findail to claim the ring. My second What If question is: What if Findail had claimed the Ring? Could he have healed the land? Made a new Staff of Law? If he had been given the ring initially, could he have defeated Lord Foul, for that matter?

Again, I think not. I think Lord Foul, originating from outside the Arch of Time, could only be defeated by outsiders like Covenant and Linden. I also think that the Elohim, being creatures of Earthpower, had been partially corrupted when Lord Foul had drawn strength from the Earthpower after his first defeat (also creating the Sunbane in the process). This corruption of the Elohim accounts for "the place of darkness" that Daphin talks of some of the Elohim (I think she was specifically speaking of Chant) had found in themselves. This might also account for Chant's arrogant attitude, and how the Elohim were unable to discern any path that did not balance hope and risk for both the Elohim and Covenant. So, I think he could not have defetaed Lord Foul, and if he had taken the ring after Covenant defeated Lord Foul, his healing of the Land would have been corrupt.

But if I'm wrong, it brings up some interesting points. Obviously Findail was not going to combine himself with Vain and forge a new Staff of Law. But perhaps he could have journeyed back to the One Tree and formed a new Staff of Law. Nom makes the trip from Bhrathairrealm to Revelstone in only a few moments; surely in that form Findail could have made the round trip in a half an hour tops. In his examination by the Elohim, Chant tries to convince Covenant to give him the ring. Findail, when explaining why they did not remove Covenant's venom, says that one of their hopes was that Covenant would recognize what a danger he was and give his ring to either Findail or Linden. Obviously, the Elohim seem to think that with the ring they would be more than a match for Lord Foul and the Sunbane. But were they correct? Covenant must not have thought so, or he would have had to have been the most stubborn person in the world (we know he is somewhat stubborn) not to give Findail his ring. Supposing that Findail with the ring could have defeated Lord Foul, think of all the deaths that would have been avoided. Surely Covenant was not just being stubborn.

Well, those are the arguments I've thought up so far on those questions. As I said, I'm interested in hearing the opinions of others. Many of you know the books better than I, and I'm hoping that you can help illuminate the series more clearly for me.

[amanibhavam]

ah, but Covenant did not defeat Lord Foul - LF is a god (or equivalent) - you cannot just defeat a god; that was the point - TC did not have to fight LF, all he had to do is accept himself for what he was: white gold impersonated, and absorb all the wrath, malice and energy LF put out
and this way Linden couldn't have won; maybe she would've succeeded in breaking the Arch, but that only would've unleash LF onto the outer Universe; I think then he would've destroyed the Earth verily

[Skyweir]

yes that is the subtle distinction .. but I do think LF was defeated .. but defeated by TC's surrendering himself entirely .. He definitely didn't destroy LF .. but I think defeat him he did .. LF the suedo-god outsmarted by the leper-man.

but the point about getting the ring is not really relevant .. The ring was just a token .. even if Findail or Linden did get the ring .. without TC they couldnt harness the power of the ring. Without TC the ring was less meaningful. TC was the white gold .. and thats why he gave LF the ring .. because the power was in him.

So getting the ring is not really the point .. I agree they couldnt have defeated LF or the sunbane with the ring .. because it was just a token. And that also answers the question .. what was so special about TC's white gold ring?? doesnt it?? I mean there is a lot of white gold in our world that could have been summoned to The Land .. but the Creator chose TC .. not entirely for his possession of a white gold ring .. but moreso for who and what HE was .. white gold ..

my 2 cents.

[sparky]

It was in the first chronicle that Lord Mhoram himself said that TC was the white gold. Lord Foul could have, and would have riven the Arch of Time. And I believe that Findail would have done so as well, but unwittingly. Having read both chronicles numerous times (the covers are falling off), I believe that anyone could have used the ring. Hile Troy had possession for a moment before it was removed from him by the Forrestal of Garrotting Deep.
Linden also had possession of the ring. But she was able to use it without destroying the Arch of Time because she was creating, not destroying.
Yes, I know, TC used it to destroy the illeart stone. But after all, he is TC.
TC was the white gold from the very beginning. He is the paradox that will never be explained to the satisfaction of any within the land.
And now that the venom from Marid has been alloyed within his blood, he is even more like the white gold than any other. For white gold is an alloy to begin with (Platinum and gold).

[Bannor]

TC (I always think of Top Cat when I use those initials) was definitely THE white gold, and like Skyweir said, white gold could have been brought to The Land in any number of ways other than through TC. I don't think any all out battle would have defeated Lord Foul. Kevin certainly wasn't able to, and who knew the Staff better than he did? He had all the knowledge. Findail and the other Elohim wouldn't have fared any better. This is all conjecture of course (Hile Troy didn't really get a fair chance, but then he was destined for other matters).

[aliantha]

Second things first: Findail, that whiner, could not have defeated Lord Foul, ring or no ring. He knew his fate -- if he didn't know the details, he certainly knew it had something to do with sacrificing himself -- and I think that if Covenant had given him the ring, he (Findail) would've just thrown the damned thing into the nearest volcanic pit and gone home.

We discussed on the old boards whether the Elohim could have defeated Foul on their own, and I think the consensus was that they could not have. I don't think their possession of the ring would have made any difference. I suspect they had their own selfish reasons for trying to persuade Covenant to give the ring to Findail, mostly revolving around their burning desire to not be involved in the messy problems of the physical Land. Had Covenant given the ring to Findail, he might have tried using it and found he could not -- at which time the Elohim could've all shrugged and said, "Oh, well, we tried," and happily gone back to contemplating their own navels.

A side issue: How did Nom get there so fast?

Anyway...and getting back to your first What If: I think that while others had the ability to use the ring, Covenant was the only one who could've used it to defeat Foul. (He did so defeat him. Maybe not for all time, but Foul shrunk into nothingness and winked out -- that qualifies as a defeat in my book....)

I think this is all about acceptance. Covenant begins the chronicles as a guy who knows Despite in his own soul, but who is not comfortable with that knowledge. The battle with Foul -- whether it happens in a real, live Land or only in TC's head -- is (on a metaphoric level) all about Covenant accepting that his soul encompasses Despite as well as Good, and learning to be at peace with that. At the end of WGW, he is the only character in the series (except Covenant's Dead) who has come to that realization. That's what gives him the confidence to hand his ring over to Foul. At that point, Covenant knows intimately that Despite is part of him, and he accepts that. But he also knows that he is, on balance, a good man. That knowledge and that acceptance make him strong enough to defeat Despite.

Hmm. Which would explain why Linden, who has her own battle ahead with accepting the presence of Despite in her soul, ends up with the ring. She'll need it.

And it also explains why she could not have defeated Foul -- even by possessing Covenant. She has to come to terms with Despite before she can battle Foul directly. And she's coming from a worse place than Covenant came from. Covenant hated his disease, but Linden hates herself.

[danlo]

Proves my pet theory in the string I started on the Old Forum: What if the entire World in TCTC were connected: Nom ran like a rocket west across the desert across unknown lands with the Haruchai looking down from the far Westrons going "What in the Holy Hellfire is that!!!???"

[Bannor]

I really like the idea of the haruchai watching Nom speed across the world. If such a thing did happen, what would they think?

[Tohrm]

I think that they would have just looked on with their dispassionate countenances, and just observed without any questioning at all. They seem to have reached the points in their racial existance to have almost no curiosity at all. At least when it comes to individual minor events. But the creation of the sunbane was enough to bring them out of their collective uncaring attitudes. They strike me somewhat as a lands' version of the legends of martial artists of the old times. That they do not normally get involved with things that are going on around them in the rest of the land. But rather stick to themselves except when there is an urgent need in the land.

[Skyweir]

I totally agree with you .. re:The bloodguard!

they probably wouldnt even blink an eyelid!!

.. I love that about them ..

Covenant hated his disease, but Linden hates herself.[Aliantha}

how true that is .. incredibly perceptive and totally nailed the distinction between the two .. if there is one to be made ..

[berencamlost7]

I think all the way through both Chronicles SRD shows us the limitations of power. In the first trilogy, for example, Elena is given what on the face of it is Ultimate Power. It avails her nothing. In the apotheosis of The Power that Preserves Foul is not defeated by power but love.

And in the second trilogy the ring becomes even more useless in the hands of the envenomed Covenant. It's Covenant himself, through sacrifice, who defeats Foul.

So the Ring, or any other source or ward of Power is a Red Herring. It's Covenants love and self sacrifice that is the White Gold. And he always had this in him if you believe the Creator when he says "be true".

[Skyweir]

wow!! well summised beren!

.. the qualities that TC exhibited where 'white gold qualities' .. and .. they unleashed power of miraculous proportions!

.. I guess you are right in that the Creator always said that very truth to TC .. when he said to him to "be true" ..

"be true" ..

wow! outstandingly perceptive and a fact that truly escaped me till now!

[berencamlost7]

Skyweir - Honoured you feel that way. Love redeems all though doesn't it ? There's a thread of that running through both Chronicles. Covenant himself knows, or suspects, that no amount of physical power will defeat Foul. He keeps teeling the Lords, Hile Troy, Elena etc that. In fact I would suggest that this is another instance where Covenant and Bannor are alike. The Bloodguard manifest this non-use of power extravegantly, not that it does them any good in the end. Perhaps its their lack of Love ?

[danlo]

most of what was said--and would def b the case with the Bloodguard--I still think that the Haruchai of the WGW would @ least b somewhat "collectively" shocked and instinctively put on guard 2 witness a creature of such strenght and speed. Mayb, instead of "hellfire", a telepathic equivalent of the Haruchai word 4 "cool" would b uttered...

[caamora]

Has anyone ever thought that - on another level - that LF is actually TC's leporsy. Despite = disease. Linden could not fight or cure a disease that has no cure. Maybe TC was really facing his own mortality when he finally faced LF. In actuality, he had to face his disease and succomb to it in order to win. Life after death. Is that too cerebral?

[Skyweir]

WOW!! thats interesting!! We have had discussions were we have pondered whether LF is in actuality TC's alter-ego .. but not his disease .. from memory ..

That is intriguing .. and highly possible!

Maybe TC was really facing his own mortality when he finally faced LF

And ofcourse in truth he was facing his own mortality when he faced LF .. infact he decidedly surrendered his mortality to LF to defeat him .. lets hope that does not mean he surrendered to his disease though .. that does not equate like a victory to me though .. a hollow victory at best. So on that point .. I kinda hope that LF is not a representation of TC's disease .. but in many ways I can see that this could be .. mmm .. very interesting Caamora ..

[danlo]

Caamora may have just found the lost treasure of the Incas! Everything u describe and Sky elaborates sounds like acceptance 2 me--4 all purposes: I think u may have just opened the door 2 the 3rd Chrons!!!!

[Droxine]

CAAMORA:

Having read both trilogies at least a dozen times (nothing -- and I mean nothing -- compares) -- I thought I'd thought I'd poured over just about every possibility concerning every character, but obviously not -- Lord Foul = despite = Covenant's leprosy? A very thought-provoking possibility and definitely not too cerebral -- never too cerebral with these series.

Thanks for posting the idea -- it'll give me so many pleasurable hours of contemplation -- I think I'll just have to re-read the books again -- oh well...!

[danlo]

Oh 2 bad! Welcome 2 KW, btw...

[Tohrm]

Enjoy the read. Every time I pick them up, I pick up a little something else. It might be just something that I glossed over the previous times, but each time I discover a little bit more, and more, and......