The Big Question

Post by **finn** » Sat Dec 11, 2004 11:33 pm

With time appearing to be negotiable, in the sense that it can be traversed, a question that keeps coming back to me is how was there knowledge of White Gold prior to Covenants first visit to the Land.

Add to this the (surely more than coincidental) fact that Berek had a halfhand and my speculations tell me that we must be heading for the past.

Is Berek, TC or Jeremiah?

Post by **CovenantJr** » Sun Dec 12, 2004 1:04 am

I suppose Jeremiah could conceivably be Berek, but as I've said before, I don't see any way TC could be. 1) Berek lost his fingers in battle - TC lost his to leprosy and is no fighter anyway. 2) TC has seen Berek's ghost (PTP) and he would have noticed if they shared a face.

So not TC. I doubt Jeremiah too, since (as I said above) Berek lost his fingers in battle with the King's army, and Jeremiah has already lost his. We can overlook Jeremiah's lack of fighting skill since he's young enough to live in the past for a while and become a warrior, and TC had never seen Jeremiah (indeed, Jeremiah wasn't born) at the time he saw Berek's ghost, so that's not an issue.

To summarise: I don't buy TC as Berek, but I reluctantly concede that Jeremiah could be the man for the task.

Post by **finn** » Sun Dec 12, 2004 3:17 am

.......and the knowledge of White Gold?

Post by **CovenantJr** » Sun Dec 12, 2004 3:51 am

As far as I recall, knowledge of white gold was revealed to Berek when the Earthpower spoke to him.

Post by **finn** » Mon Dec 13, 2004 8:12 am

I don't actually recall that, however, the main point would still hold. The big question for me is how is there knowledge of White Gold prior to it coming to the land? It would seem that if Earthpower revealed knowledge to Berek (and I don't quarrel with your recollections CJ), how did IT know and is it then in a way sentient?

I don't think so, but as a store of power and accumulated Knowledge, where did 'Earthpower' get that knowledge? Prescience?

Again, I don't think so; despite evidence that Earthpower is in some way able to traverse time (Ranyhyn summonses, Bloodguard, laws of Life and Death and so on).

For knowledge to exist thousands of years before TC was summoned, surely White Gold had to have been in existence in the land at that, or an earlier stage.

So it seems likely to me, given such phenomenen as Caesures and their effects, that it was taken back to a time prior to the knowledge being revealed to Berek. The likely candidates are our main protagonists (and I'd include Foul), two of which have half hands like Berek.

Its circumstantial, but does seem to me at least, to stretch coincidence. Nonetheless, the half hand issue is potentially at least, an effect. The cause and the question in my mind is the White Gold existing in the past and how it got there.

Post by **amanibhavam** » Mon Dec 13, 2004 10:59 am

The question has been asked in the Gradual Interview, and SRD's answer was something like "myth, prophecy, lore?".

Post by **I'm Murrin** » Mon Dec 13, 2004 12:14 pm

Berek learned many things from Earthpower.
Consider the Elohim. The Elohim are pure Earthpower. They knew about White Gold, knew about the Sun-Sage, knew what caesures were and what they are caused by. The Earthpower, being the substance of the Earth itself, would know of "wild magic graven in every rock; contained for White Gold to unleash or control", so Berek could conceivably have found it out from the earth.

Post by **wayfriend** » Mon Dec 13, 2004 4:22 pm

Do we really need a reason why White Gold is significant?

I don't think that the Final Chrons is going to be particularly about revealing logical explanations for everything in the first two. This is going to be a character journey. It's not a journey in historical accounting.

I'm not saying time travel won't be integral. I'm saying that time travel is not going to be used in order to create a neat and tidy, self-contained, internally consistent cosmos. Some authors set out to create that; many authors have done it; but I'd be disappointed if this is where SRD is going.

Post by **High Lord Tolkien** » Mon Dec 13, 2004 10:39 pm

Unless, the "Earthpower" that spoke to Berek was in some way a ceasure manifestation of Linden. (whatever the hell that means!!!)

And Roger is still a candidate for Berek.
His physical similarity to his father was explained by Linden right in the beginning.
TC hadn't seen his Roger since he was a baby and all he saw during shade appearance at the end of TPTP might have been an adult Roger and then add a beard for some more confusion and ...... he's "Berek".

It's freaking wide open people!
Almost anything is possible.

Post by **I'm Murrin** » Tue Dec 14, 2004 10:44 am

High Lord Tolkien wrote:It's freaking wide open people!
Almost anything is possible.

Except SRD has said that (minor Mod edit)

Spoiler

caesures have extremely limited effect prior to the breaking of the Law of Life, and even less effect before the Law of Death was broken. And, he's said that he doesn't really think that much on the history of the Land and it's past, unless it pertains directly to a character journey.

Post by **High Lord Tolkien** » Tue Dec 14, 2004 3:52 pm

Murrin wrote:
High Lord Tolkien wrote:It's freaking wide open people!
Almost anything is possible.

Except SRD has said that (minor Mod edit)
Spoiler
caesures have extremely limited effect prior to the breaking of the Law of Life, and even less effect before the Law of Death was broken. And, he's said that he doesn't really think that much on the history of the Land and it's past, unless it pertains directly to a character journey.

Hey, this Donaldson guy is really starting piss me off!!

Post by **wayfriend** » Tue Dec 14, 2004 6:42 pm

I have it on good authority that Berek's Queen turns out to be Susie Thurston.

Post by **Jerico** » Tue Dec 14, 2004 7:16 pm

Roger might be the 'mad king' but, Liand gets my vote for Berek

Post by **dlbpharmd** » Tue Dec 14, 2004 7:32 pm

Wayfriend wrote:I have it on good authority that Berek's Queen turns out to be Susie Thurston.

OK, I'll bite - who is that?

Post by **wayfriend** » Tue Dec 14, 2004 10:00 pm

dlbpharmd wrote:
Wayfriend wrote:I have it on good authority that Berek's Queen turns out to be Susie Thurston.
OK, I'll bite - who is that?

Fame and Reknown, and 10 cents US*, to whoever gets this first.
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* less a shipping and handling fee of $0.10.

Post by **Baradakas** » Tue Dec 14, 2004 10:03 pm

The singer that calls Covenant Berek in the Illearth War.

Now i want my 10 cents.

Post by **drew** » Wed Dec 15, 2004 1:02 am

Although technically she called him Berrett...he was just too drunk to know any better....plus she can't be Berek's queen, she was married to an alcoholic---now what was his name?!??!??!??!?!?

Post by **amanibhavam** » Wed Dec 15, 2004 8:55 am

He was not named in the book IIRC.

Post by **drew** » Wed Dec 15, 2004 9:06 am

no, he wasn't I was just seeimg if anyone had any ideas!

Guest · Post by **Guest** » Wed Dec 15, 2004 1:56 pm

I think her husband reversed his first and last name after he won the lottery and became a millionaire. Luckily, he was lost at sea after a three hour tour with his mistress. His first name used to be Howell.

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