TC the Creator of the Land

[Rick Stuckwisch]

Being new to Kevin's Watch (and unfamiliar with such forums in general), I'm not entirely up to speed on how things work. But I've already been enjoying the discussions and the give and take between the folks here.

My own thinking (and imagination) has been stimulated by the ideas and suggestions of others; so pardon me if the following is out of my depth.

I'm wondering about the possibility that TC is the Creator of the Land as an embodiment of his unrealized hopes and dreams for his marriage to Joan. His white gold wedding ring is the "Arch of Time" within which the Land is located. That would explain how and why TC is the white gold, and why his ring (and not just anyone else's) would have the power and significance it does in the Land. It would also explain why Joan's white gold wedding ring also has the power and significance that it does. Such a connection between TC, his wedding ring and his marriage, and the Land would also fit the similarities and connections between the condition of the Land and Joan's condition.

Linden Avery is first brought into the Land, along with TC, when she attempts to intervene in the efforts of TC on Joan's behalf; eventually, she replaces Joan in TC's affections, etc. TC even gives his ring to Linden. I'm wondering if the final fate of the Land doesn't hinge on a final severing of TC's attachment and commitment to Joan. That relationship remains to some extent unresolved, although it is troubled and tenuous, and Joan's distress over her abandonment of TC is (literally) chipping away at the Land and its stability. Perhaps, if the wholeness that TC yet needs to discover and achieve (what he has yet to learn) will involve the ending of his ties with Joan and a completion of his new "marriage" to Linden; at which point the Land, as such (or as it has been), would come to an end (or be reborn as something altogether new and different, such as the embodiment of now-realized hopes and dreams in a marriage to Linden).

Perhaps Jeremiah, Linden's son, becomes a building block (or a builder) of a new Land, created by a new relationship between TC and Linden

Like I said, just thinking out loud here. If I haven't lost everybody, and if I'm not completely insane in these rambling thoughts, maybe some of the rest of you might care to comment in response. . . .

Thanks, at any rate, for giving it some thought.

[wayfriend]

I don't think you can consider this topic without thinking about it in two ways.

In one way, Covenent is the Creator. The author himself says so. This is the outside explanation, where the author describes what the story is trying to tell us and how it was built to say that.

But in another way (and I expect disagreement here) Covenent is not the Creator. The inside explanation, the contents of the story itself, don't point to this, nor is it required. It's not necessary that a story based on externalizing parts of ourselves be resolved by their union; in fact, that would make it rather trite in the end. So I don't think we'll be reading anything that says "Covenent realized that he was the Creator all along." (Although, as a character, he may contemplate this as a existential point.)

That being said, I don't thing that Covenant's relationship to the Land is related to his relationship to Joan.

Joan gets screwed by Donaldson. She's a victim in every story. As a victim, she gets used, by the author as much as Lord Foul. But I think that's as far as it goes. She's a plot vehicle.

The author once responded to an idea that the onset of his leprosy and Kevin's Ritual of Descration were related as something he had not even thought of. This leads me to believe that there is not that much correspondence between the real world and the Land. And I don't think that there needs to be.

Also, I don't feel that there needs to be a logical explanation why Covenent's white gold is significant. Some things are givens in a story.

[Jerico]

An ongoing debate. SRD has said that it wasn't done on purpose? Although you could say that it seems more than a little close to events. I mean in LFB the doctors tell him that he needs something to latch onto something to believe in.
Then he dreams himself into a place that grants him those beliefs eventually. Is Foul his leporsy? Is TC the Land?
Who knows? Only SRD for sure.
My only question is how did this effect the things that transpired in TC's real earth? Who was the Old Man? Linden saw him too! How did Joan get possesed? The 'real earth' stuff doesn't float very well.

[dlbpharmd]

The author once responded to an idea that the onset of his leprosy and Kevin's Ritual of Descration were related as something he had not even thought of.

Actually, I asked SRD that question about the onset of TC's leprosy and the RoD in the GI sometime ago:

Don (dlbpharmd): Mr. Donaldson, as many have said above, thank you for writing my all-time favorite story, and thank you for continuing that story. I'm on the edge of my seat waiting for Runes to be published!

It seems, particularly in the 1st Chronicles, that so much of what is happening to Covenant physically is mirrored in the Land. For example, when his leprosy is at its worst, the Land is suffering under Foul's winter. My question: Is there any correlation between the onset of Covenant's leprosy and the enacting of the Ritual of Desecration?

When I planned the first "Chronicles," the relationship between Covenant's leprosy and the Land's plight was foremost in my mind. In fact, I designed the Land as a reverse reflection of Covenant's dilemma; and as the story progressed I consciously brought those two opposing images closer together until they were virtually superimposed.

However, the specific detail that you're asking about never actually crossed my mind. It's embarrassing, really, since it seems so obvious now that you raise it. But I didn't think of it for the same reason that I can't write prequels: as I suggested in an earlier answer, all of my attention is focused *forward*, on the ending. So I set up my reflections and then pursued their implications. I never asked myself about the implications of what might have happened *before* my starting point.

Everything that I've ever created about "the past" in any of my stories is there because it helps me get where I'm going: it doesn't exist for its own sake. In this important sense, if in no other, the Land is less "real" than, say, Middle Earth. Its history does not exist independent of "current events."

(04/13/2004)

[wayfriend]

Actually, I asked SRD that question about the onset of TC's leprosy and the RoD in the GI sometime ago

That was you?!?!

[dlbpharmd]

Yup, guilty.

[Jerico]

But inside and outside are brought together at the end of WGW. Linden has the ring. How did she get it?
In this SRD has made the Land 'real' .

[dlbpharmd]

That's one of the great questions that SRD has refused to answer thus far.

[JD]

Another factor to consider is that in The Land's world the Creator cannot directly himself go to or directly influence anyone in the land or he'll break the Arch of Time. So if Covenant was the Creator that rule was shattered.

[Rick Stuckwisch]

It's been a while now, but Wayfriend wrote, in response to my ruminations and theory:

"That being said, I don't thing that Covenant's relationship to the Land is related to his relationship to Joan.

"Joan gets screwed by Donaldson. She's a victim in every story. As a victim, she gets used, by the author as much as Lord Foul. But I think that's as far as it goes. She's a plot vehicle."

Well, I'm not about to fight to the death in defense of my theory (about TC as the "Creator"), which was mainly a case of thinking out loud (as is my wont).

However, I have to disagree concerning Joan. She may be a relatively minor character in her own right, but I think she is more than a "plot vehicle." Or, perhaps I should say that her significance to TC -- and thus to the story -- is far greater than that.

As I consider the various Chronicles, it seems to me that Joan has been a key factor in each case. To begin with, I don't believe that it was TC's leprosy per se, but Joan's abandonment of him and her divorcing him, which sent him to the brink of despair -- which is the crisis, I believe, that is resolved by his time in the Land. In the Illearth War, it was significant that Joan was trying to contact TC when he was summoned. In the Second Chronicles, he goes to the Land when he voluntarily takes Joan's place and sacrifices himself for her. And now, in the Last Chronicles, it is Joan herself that has apparently been the catalyst for everyone going to the Land. Indications are that she has been more aware, in some fashion, of the Land and of TC's relation to the Land than we've ever been given to know. All of this makes sense (to me, at least) if my theory is in some sense correct: that the Land is the embodiment of TC's hopes and dreams for his marriage to Joan.

I recognize the weaknesses in this theory; and, as I say, I'm not going to fight to the death for it. In the meantime, though, it helps me to sort some things out and keep them straight in my head. I think it explains a lot; and juding from SRD's responses to various things on the GI, he would probably say that, if it works for me as a reader, than who's to say I'm wrong

As far as the Creator is concerned, comments that SRD has made in the GI have gotten me thinking about that, too. There is "the Creator" of the Land, as he enters into the narrative (sort of) from time to time; but SRD is really the creator of the whole shooting match: both the fictional "real" world from which TC originates, and the Land (with its Creator, etc.), too. Well, in a similar vein, could not TC be a creator of the Land and of its "Creator," as well as Lord Foul, and everything else? He's created a Creator who is not able to intervene in his own creation, just as TC is left helpless to save his own marriage; it reflects, in yet another way, the helplessness of his leprosy. Yet, the Creator doesn't give up on the Land; and, ultimately, TC is taught to understand that his leprosy doesn't rule him, it doesn't deprive him of the freedom to deal with his circumstances. He's able to take risks and chances, and to deal with the consequences; and win, lose or draw, that is a kind of "power," or at least freedom.

I don't know; I just have a sense that everything finally comes back to TC's marriage -- hence the significance of the wedding rings (not just his!). Linden enters the picture as a healthy replacement for Joan; but the hurt and bitterness of the divorce and all its consequences hasn't really been resolved (nor have TC and Linden been able to build a new life -- and Land -- together!). Look at what it was, apparently, that sent Joan back into her catatonic state (and presumably into contact with the Land): it was the sheriff's pointed remarks about her connection, by marriage, to TC.

Well, okay, I'm still just thinking out loud here. But try it on for size. And then shoot me out of the water wherever I'm mistaken.

[Creator]

Great post!

The Land as a metaphor for TC's marriage. And then TC's externalized Foul torturing his ex. Hmmmm.....

[dlbpharmd]

Yes, excellent post!

I agree with what you say about Joan's relationship to the Land. That's how I've always understood it.

[Jerico]

Excellent post Rick. SRD has siad in the GI I think that he didn't write the books that way, but after someone pointed it out to him, he saw it and wished he had thought of it that way. Of course who knows what the subconcious does?
The doctors in LFB tell him that he needs to find something to hope in.
He creates everything, and through 'magic' gets his wish. It helps him through the trials of his life, but now it has taken on a life of it's own. The Magic didn't die when TC got better. So it works the same way. The Creator, the Land, Foul and the rest are not just a way for him to heal himself. It's real.

[wayfriend]

Well, I'm not about to fight to the death in defense of my theory (about TC as the "Creator"), which was mainly a case of thinking out loud (as is my wont).

That's cool. But don't take a disagreeing opinion to mean you're idea is worthless. Forums would be boring if all replies were agreement. It takes too sides to make a thread that gets some meat in it. At least, that's how I look at it. Plus, you can always say, "Who is this Wayfriend idiot?!?!" and ignore the heck out of me.

As I consider the various Chronicles, it seems to me that Joan has been a key factor in each case ...

Surely you noticed that you omitted the three summonings in LFB and TPTP. So Joan is only a factor 50% of the time. Also, while Joan has been a factor (which satisfies the statement that she is a plot vehicle) I don't see that her relationship with Covenant has been a significant emotional issue for Covenant in any book - as opposed to, say, Linden's relationship with her parents.

As far as the Creator is concerned, comments that SRD has made in the GI have gotten me thinking about that, too.

This is the one that I like to refer back to, and this is not out of context:

My general view of the kind of fantasy I write is that it's a specialized form of psychodrama. Putting the issue as simply as I can: the story is a human mind turned inside out, and all of the internal forces which drive that mind are dramatized *as if* they were external characters, places, and events. (4/27/2004)

The emphasis is the author's, and I want to emphasize it as well. The story is written *as if* the Creator and Lord Foul are just aspects of Covenant. However, it doesn't necessarilly follow that "as if" becomes "is".

I guess it's fairer to say that, if "as if" became "is", I would be greatly disappointed - no, deeply saddened. For me, the whole thing would turn out to be a cheap trick, on par with "and then he woke up, and discovered it was all a dream." So I will sometimes come out and defend this position.

However, in the Final Chronicles, TC is dead. The logic that the Land and Foul really are externalizations of TC in order for him to work out issues just falls flat on it's face. He's dead. He has no more issues. Nor can he work out any if he had them.