Interesting response by SRD...

[TincupCPG]

On his gradual interview there was a recent comment on the Fall appearing before Linden on kevin's Watch. The writer then asked SRD a pointed question regarding the Fall and it's location at Kevin's Watch...and pertaining to Thomas Covenant appearing on the Watch. SRD's response was typically vague and maddening....but it jolted me into thinking a lot harder about what he said...and what he didn't say!

What in the world can be planned for us if the ENTIRE series of 6 books can be placed into a different context, misinterpreted, etc...just because of that ONE statement on SRD's part? Shocked. Amazed. And frigging upset that i have to wait 3 years to even BEGIN to come close to finding out.

[I'm Murrin]

And what exactly was this response?

edit - nevermind. It was a 'more information in later books' response. And he also hinted at another thing, but I'm guessing it was just about the other GI question where he talks of how caesures don't affect much before the Law of Life is broken. But I'd like to see exactly what part of the issue he feels needs to be covered more greatly (perhaps just clarification on the 'all time in one place' thing).

[TincupCPG]

Yeah, what I was talking about (without too much detail for those who did not want to know) was SRD's comment about Thomas Covenant on the Watch where the Fall was supposed to be. It seems from his comments that there is a good deal of merit in the idea of the Fall being there when Covenant was in the Land. That idea is what SRD means to explore in much greater detail in the following books. Think about the implications of that if SRD follows through with that general plan of attack.

What if the Fall affected Covenant...transported him...brought something TO him (which we know can happen, altho extremely unlikely) We all have the same questions IF the fall affected Covenant. Where and When would that have happened?? There needs to be "gaps" in the previous 6 books where that kind of thing could have happened...or else something else i am thinking of that is mind-blowing but I have not fully organized those thoughts yet.

[avial]

I considered this - for some reason I thought after extinguishing the banefire in the 2nd chronicles Thomas vanished for a while, but on re-reading I was incorrect.

There are the times when he is comatose however - that could be counted as absent, but still I fear it may be a bit of a cop-out..

[MrKABC]

I considered this - for some reason I thought after extinguishing the banefire in the 2nd chronicles Thomas vanished for a while, but on re-reading I was incorrect.

There are the times when he is comatose however - that could be counted as absent, but still I fear it may be a bit of a cop-out..

I thought Covenant *did* disappear for a while, when the story was told from Linden's POV and she was supervising the quenching of the Banefire. The story said she watched him "rage for a while" in the Banefire, then he left to go to High Lord Mhoram's room.

VERY VERY small gap in time there, but the only one I can think of. BUT... he was still contaminated with venom at the time and still would not be able to use the wild magic since Lord Foul had not yet totally burned it out of him.

The only other gap I can think of is when High Lord Elena left Covenant with the Unfettered One up at Glimmermere. I can't imagine that he would have been transported forward in time at that point because his actions upon returning to Glimmermere would be radically different. (including knowing Linden Avery, knowing how to use white gold, etc)

I can't imagine how SRD might use a Fall to recall Covenant without destroying the rest of the series.

[TincupCPG]

I am not positive that SRD will "recall" Covenant from an ealier time at all. IF he did so then it would HAVE to be from the Second Chronicles or he would not know Avery. (actually...considering my feelings towards Avery that is not a bad idea...GO SRD)

I have a sinking feeling that he will NOT cheapen the stories by bringing Covenant forwards in time during those "lapses" Covenant went through. I am thinking of something even more drastic...and it seems to fit right up SRD's alley. What if the First or Second Chronicles did not happen exactly the way we think? We don't need Covenant brought forward in time to the period of "The Runes of The Earth"...as the Law of Life has been broken as well as the Law of Death. Someone is VERY VERY capable of bringing Thomas back. There are 2 different ways right off the top of my square little head for possibilities of how Covenant is back. And there are no doubt 2-3 more that are just as plausible. So, I think the KEY to the entire 7 books will have to lay in the past. And the next three books explain and fix what has happened in the Land before. Hell, we already know there HAS to be some issues for Avery taking the Staff of Law from the past. That is one of many many examples that are out there. So, with the falls and such in these stories I think SRD was right on the money when he said, "We are going for a ride!"

Also, on a side issue not really connected with above...A writer asked SRD why he calls the Haruchai Masters. His response was he really could not think of anything else to call them that fit! Well, i have an explanation of perhaps why the Haruchai recieved that general title. I do NOT beleive for one second that they named themselves Masters. i think it is simply a by-product of thousands of years passing and all the while the Haruchai taking more and more of the Land's stories and Legends from the knowledge of the peoples. Since the Haruchai would be virtually impervious to any inhabitant of the Land...I see no reason why the name "Masters" might have popped up and then been spread accross the Land. To the people of the Land, that is exactly what the Haruchai are...Masters. Insignificant point..but was just interesting. As far as an argument that Linden should have gone back to get the Staff of law? For one thing, (probably the most important to her) Thomas Covenant (if it was actually him) told her she needed it. She trusted that admonition and while she still had free will NOT to go get it, you saw how she used circular logic to arrive at the conclusion which she then acted out in the book.

One other minor thing. In a different post someone said that Covenant was now the Arch of Time himself. Nope. He is Dead...and a barrier BETWEEN the Arch and Lord Foul. Now, since there are more than one White Gold ring in the Land...(we are assuming those rings have power...when Mhoram told Covenant HE was the White Gold) It almost falls to FOUL to bring Covenant back in one piece. After all, if he got his hands on the other ring (s)...he still could not use it to break the Arch as Covenant is clearly aware of Events happening in the land so he could and most likely would stop Foul from attempting the Arch again. So, if Foul brings him back in HUMAN form...There is no longer a "barrier" between the Arch and Foul. Interesting. If that is the case, then maybe this IS the real Covenant racing towards Revelstone and the warnings are this: Since he is Dead...SOMEONE had to have brought him back. Who was that someone? And IF it was Foul, does that mean Covenant has free will? Or does Foul have some means of manipulating him since he MIGHT have been the one who brings Covenant back? If that is, in fact, what happens.

[Jerico]

SRD has explained that TC is not dead. He is like Hile Troy. Like the Avatar of the Arch, not the arch itself. He is the Protector of the Arch like a Foestal (HT) is the protector of the forest. TC even tells Linden in WGW "I'm like the Dead".

But I agree that Foul needs to bring back TC for the same reasons. He needs this 'barrier' removed, and he still wants to beat TC.

In the GI SRD has said that one of the reasons that she went to get the Staff was because TC told her she needed it. That seems a good confermation that it was really him.

We could see more time travel, but it seems to open to many doorways for the destruction of the Arch. Things or People being brought forward? The situation would have to be right, such as the Demondin.

[MrKABC]

In the GI SRD has said that one of the reasons that she went to get the Staff was because TC told her she needed it. That seems a good confermation that it was really him.

Not necessarily... how do we know that isn't really one of Lord Foul's "suggestions"?????

I seem to remember Lord Foul saying.. "To you I do not speak. I speak only to set the feet of my hearers on the path that I have set for them..."

Why else would Lord Foul be talking and helping Linden, unless he has something to gain out of the encounter?

[TincupCPG]

Actually my entire comments was this in regards to Covenant telling Avery to retrieve the Staff of Law, "As far as an argument that Linden should have gone back to get the Staff of law? For one thing, (probably the most important to her) Thomas Covenant (if it was actually him) told her she needed it". "If it was actually him" That certainly does imply that IF it was Covenant he could be influenced by Foul or someone we have not met yet. And if it is a creation of Foul's the same standards apply. Still, with Thomas able to place himself between the Arch and Lord Foul...Foul still cannot use the White Gold as he desires. He needs Covenant out of the way, so to speak.

As far as Covenant being "Dead"? Covenant himself descibes himself as "like the Dead"...They can be invoked...and they can be sent away." To back up that point...Findail (the creep) banishes Covenant from the cavern, he cannot refuse the dismissal. Now, the only thing that seperated Covenant (and not just him) from the "dead" was that Hile Troy broke the Law of Life. Other wise he would be like the Dead...unable to act, merely a spectator. But in that breaking of the Law of Life that gave Covenant the ability to act. If not for Hile Troy Covenant would not have been able to stop Foul from destroying the Arch of Time.

So, i still think Covenant has to be brought back to "real life" if only to give Foul a chance to get past the Arch. Now, Since the paradox of White Gold is that Covenant himself is also the White Gold...I don't think that Foul can use one of the other White Gold rings in the Land now. It HAS to be connected with Covenant for it to be able to do what Fould wants.

Sure Lord Foul has ulterior motives in mind...he does NOTHING without trying to fully exploit any given situation. But we do not have a clue as to what he actually needs done this time.

I am gonna stick to my guns (Hear me SRD????!!!!) and BET that the salvation (if that is what is intended) of the Land lies in the Past. And I am willing to bet the first 6 books do NOT happen in the same context we THINK happened. Interesting. So, Stephen R. Donaldson? If you need some pointers or ideas..gimme a call!!

[MrKABC]

Now, the only thing that seperated Covenant (and not just him) from the "dead" was that Hile Troy broke the Law of Life. Other wise he would be like the Dead...unable to act, merely a spectator. But in that breaking of the Law of Life that gave Covenant the ability to act. If not for Hile Troy Covenant would not have been able to stop Foul from destroying the Arch of Time.

I have a question: If the Law of Life prevented Covenant from doing anything until it was broken, how did dead High Lord Elena act against the Land in PTP? How did the dead rise up and destroy Revelwood and Revelstone's gates? How did High Lord Kevin kill First Mark Morin and Elena?

It's a little OT but sounds like a gaffe to me... Your thoughts?

[TincupCPG]

Ouch. very good questions indeed!!!!

I firmly believe that if you are Dead...you are a spectator. You can be made to leave, or to appear...but you cannot intervene or take action. COvenant clearly says that the breaking of the law of Life allowed him to take action instead of just being a spectator, so to speak.

Now, how did Elena act against the Land? I have no damned clue. Now, she was under control by the power of the IllEarth Stone...but that is no answer. If the Stone was able to control Elena and let her physically act I think THAT would have broken the Law of Life at that moment. That might be a gaffe...OR maybe, just maybe we might have something that SRD will delve into in the next 3 books. I am gonna ask that in his interview!!

I am not entirely sure of the "dead' that rose up and attacked Revelstone. They were "dead" yes...but were not "ghosts" even though that is not the right word. These were articulated stone creatures of long ago dead beings...but clearly they are different than the specters that appear at the end of TPTP and WGW and also in TWL. Something about that almost makes sense if my brain is wrapped around it long enough.

High Lord Kevin? Again...the very same answer as Elena. She was Dead. And brought back by Foul beucase the Law of Death had been broken. BUT the Law of Life Covenant said ALLOWED him to act. Unless Covenant was wrong about what made him capable of acting. But I don't think that we can postulate that he was wrong when he was speaking to Linden and said that. I don't think the presence of White Gold or the Staff of law made a difference either. Allowing the "shades" of Elena and High Lord Kevin to "ACT" was either a mistake OR something that SRD was planning all along to address. I NEVER thought of that until your reply. Damn you for making me think!!!! (wink)

[Prover of Life]

BUT the Law of Life Covenant said ALLOWED him to act

The key word is "allowed". Elena & Kevin were compelled by the Illearth Stone. Covenant freely chose.

[Prover of Life]

Something else that crossed my mind. In TWL, on Kevins Watch, Foul tells Covenant:

"Time is altered. The world is not what it was."

With that in mind, at the end of WGW, Foul fades out of existence (again).

Where and/or when did he go?

[TincupCPG]

I phrased that poorly. When Covenant said the breaking of law of Life allowed him to come back, I didn't mean that he had a choice all along. Until the Law of Life was broken...Covenant COULD NOT interfere in any way. It was only after that Law was broken that TC was able to do what he did. I asked the Elena/Kevin question on SRD's interview.

It does not matter what power controls the Dead. In order for them to "act" instead of merely spectate, the Law of Life had to have been broken. It was not. Or else that is something that SRD will get to in the next 3 books. The IllEarth Stone does not suffice to make the Dead act without breakage of Law. Something else either happened...or it is a simple oversite on SRD's side. Which i doubt. I think we are in for a surprise on that.

At end of WGW, i would assume he took refuge (again) in the ONLY Power potent enough to restore even him. The Earthpower itself. That is what happened at the end of First Chronicles and i see no reason to change it unless SRD has something else in mind.

[Aleksandr]

If the Law of Life prevented Covenant from doing anything until it was broken, how did dead High Lord Elena act against the Land in PTP? How did the dead rise up and destroy Revelwood and Revelstone's gates? How did High Lord Kevin kill First Mark Morin and Elena?

They are in effect puppets of Foul’s in each case. Kevin and Elena are conscious puppets, and the Dead at Revelstone seem like mindless zombies. But they have no independent will to act on their own.

[TincupCPG]

I think the Dead at Revelstone being "resurrected" is a different subject than the "shades" of the High Lords and what not.

I don't think there is ANY way to "use" Elena or Kevin like they were WITHOUT breaking the Law of Life. My gut feeling is that SRD put that in knowing it is a "clue" to yet another book and we didn't immediately recognize it. According to the books, the Dead cannot act at all. They are merely spectators. The Law of Life being broken is what gave then their ability to act upon their desires. If they are forced to act...that is the same thing as acting out of freewill. Bottom line is: they are physically reacting and changing the real world around them. Cannot be done before the Law of Life was broken. Unless it is part of a plot twist that SRD will reveal in a later book.

[dlbpharmd]

From today's GI:

Matthew Yenkala: Given all the variations of sincere and heartfelt praise, flattery and testimonials that you are routinely bombarded with, I'm a bit apprehensive (as are others, I know) as to how to begin; so I'll state it simply: I've been a reader of your work since I was 13-14 (1985!), and I could not begin to describe how profound an impact it has had on my life and on the person I have become. Along with certain other seminal interests, some of the ideas and concepts expressed through the COVENANT books have helped shaped or enlightened my view of the world, the supernatural/metaphysical, morality, and people in general.

I've been saving up questions for six months, and I have a long list, but I'm going to start with one very simple one that I noticed on my first (hurried) reading of of RUNES on the day of its release, and which has been bugging me since, and that I have kept my eyes out for the specific reference on my second, liesurely reading:

On page 226 of the US edition of RUNES (chapter "Aided by ur-Viles"), Stave speaks of the diminishing of the lore and population of the ur-viles and waynhim:

"This the new Lords knew because in numbers both the Waynhim and ur-viles continued to dwindle. Indeed, both had become the last of their kind. They created no descendents, and when they were slain nothing returned of them."

BUT

In THE WOUNDED LAND, Hamako (who I always liked!) tells Covenant:

"The numbers of the Waynhim are only replenished because the ur-viles continue the work of their Demondim makers. Much breeding is yet done in the deeps of the Earth, and some are ur-viles, some Waynhim-and some are altogether new, enfleshed visions of lore and power. Such a one is your companion. A conscious making to accomplish a chosen aim.....Lord Foul repays them with both knowledge and material for their breedings. Thus comes your companion."

So....

Was this contradiction conscious? If it was not....is it Hamako's error? Stave's? Or *gulp* yours? And if that's the case, will this be added to the list of corrections to the paperback edition?

I don't mean for my first email to you on this forum to bust your chops about a potential snafu; but I'm sincerely curious, and would like to see if there's a resolution to come.

Until I get around to sending you another--

Genuine Love

Matteo M. Yenkala

This particular issue has been raised before. I'm addressing it again because I want to emphasize that, well, I'm human, which means that I screw up routinely--and that when I correct my screw-ups I *still* screw up--and that when I correct *those* screw-ups I *still* screw up. In addition, screw-up problems are aggravated by the fact that I do *not* work from a "world bible" or any other form of Tolkien-esque background. So: problems occur; and I correct them as best I can--which is, sadly, never quite good enough.

But the particular issue you raise doesn't fall under the heading of Authorial Screw-Up. And while you're waiting for "The Last Chronicles" to reveal how that statement could possibly be true, ask yourself this question: OK, so Hamako told Covenant that new ur-viles and Waynhim both can and do still come into existence: so who did Covenant tell?

(05/12/2005)

[lurch]

Point Being,,,Ever been there?, Point Being? Yea, I think its at the end of Cape Fog. TinCup, you are correct. Keep this line of thinking going and you will go nuts. I mean, at least another year, perhaps 6 years,,only to find out you got wrapped around an axle that doesn’t have any wheels. Its obvious to me that Donaldson is giving all those micro- over analyzers a good hint,,let it go. Its not into the micro that you should be going,,its into the macro..see the answer( yesterday?) to my question in the GI. ..Theme!….MEL

[drew]

..So does that mean that there's more Ur-cile and Wanhyn that not even the Masters know about?

[dlbpharmd]

Yeah, perhaps so. TMK there is no instance of Covenant telling anyone that the ur-viles were still breeding.