Thomas and Berek

[Lord Marduk]

Don't know if this this is the right forum ,but I know some have discussed the possibility that Covanent and Berek are the same person. Rereading Lord Foul's Bane, Atiaran tells TC that there is no gold in the Earth yet Berek had knowledge of it. seems like a possibiltity now that time travel is possible. Any thoughts.

ps. this is my first post, and I would like to thank all the posters for some great information and ideas.

Lord Marduk

[native]

As discussed previously, Berek appeared at the end of the First Chronicles, and he didn't seem to look like Covenant. Maybe he could be Jeremiah.

[Lady Revel]

Also, it is clear Berek lost his fingers in the land, while Covenant's were removed surgically.

However, there is a possible refutation to this.....if what happens to a person in the land also happens in the real world, perhaps Berek lost his fingers at the same time as Covenant's surgery.

If this were the case though, why wouldn't Covenant have been conciously in the land?

I have at times thought that Berek was Covenant, but I currently think that it couldn't be possible.

But we never know what SRD will throw at us, eh?

[Jerico]

I think it will be Liand that turns out to be Berek. He'll learn just enough from the others to create the legends of the white gold.

[drew]

What people are forgetting, is that Berek was not around at the Birth of the Land. The Land was around for centuries before Dorinder Corishev, and if the city was that big with a King and a queen, then it was probebly around for at least a hundred years before Berek came around...also, why would anyone rename themselves Berek? If Liand was Berek...then we would have heard about Liand Lordfather, or Thomas Hearthrew.
Remember, it's the Arch of time, not circle. Time will come to an end in the Land..probebly at the end of this series.

[Lady Revel]

Arch or Mobius Strip? I'm wondering if SRD isn't going to somehow morph the two together.

[finn]

There was a post that made the supposition that the land was a reflection of Covenant. That his life equated to the life of the land and that the span of years was roughly the same when measured earth-time to land-time.

It (or a response to it) supposed that the key events in Covenants life were reflected as pivotal moments in the History of the land.

I quite liked this idea but have been too lazy to check out the sequence of events and their match-up to the two chronologies. However if it was possible that this were somehow the case then characters in the Land's history may well have been "reflections" of Covenant in the real world.

This theory is consistent with Joan, her getting back her ring, her self abuse and the consequent events happening in the land at times roughly corresponding within the land/earth chronological ratio.

I too question the knowledge of white gold, it is apparently "graven in every rock" and was known or revealed to Berek but is also alien to the Land. This is inconsistent and is either an error by SRD or a key to revealing a part of the final chronicles. It seems to me entirely logical that now we have the medium to traverse time, some knowledge, fortellings and prophesies could well be the result of time travel.

This would account for the white gold inconsistency (above) and may well account for Berek's half hand. Covenant has a halfhand, the ravers maimed bloodguard by making them halfhands in mockery of TC, the current Haruchai masters have chosen to maim the best amongst them by making them halfhands, Linden's son is maimed in a similar fashion, apparently by Lord Foul crossing the earth/land divide at least in influence: Berek's disfigurement is altogether too coincidental!

If Berek is not TC (or anyone else from the future) then it appears entirely possible that the battle for good and evil traverses time and that Foul maims Berek once again in mockery of TC. Another reason could be that Berek loses his fingers at the same "relative time" that Covenant loses his and is a manifestation of Covenants disfigurement, but as I said I've been too indolent to check.

Another thought was that Covenant might be or become the earthpower and it is TC that reveals his secrets to Berek to help him fight Foul as they battle across time. TC is now essentially spirit possibly with the powers of, or even a part of the Elohim. He IS wild magic, if he IS also the land as postulated above, then wild magic would be in everything, and the link between land, white gold, earthpower etc. would all be through TC.

The land has suffered since his battle with Foul and subsequent deification, perhaps Kevin's Dirt is a reflection; of the diminished substance of Covenant?

[High Lord Tolkien]

Finn, it doesn't match up.
I thought it did.
That the joys of TC's marriage, birth of his son and success of his book was reflected in the Land as the Time of the Old Lords and Earthpower running free.
Then someone asked SRD that if the Ritual of Desecration was a reflection of TC's leprosy and SRD replied *that he hadn't even thought of that!*
Bummer!

But you're right that there are a lot of halfhands running around these days!


I like to think that Roger will become Berek.
The physical similarity to TC that everyone talks about in the Land will be there and a possible knowledge of what will happen in the future.
Berek was a Seer and Oracle right?
Going back in time knowing what events are going to happen in the future but also knowing that trying to influence or change those events will break the Arch would explain why Time doesn't change.
Roger is from outside the Arch.
People from outside have power in the Land.
It also gets around Drews idea of the contradiction with having Liand become Berek.
Roger is the wild card.
Who knows where he is in Time?
He might be at Fouls Creche even before the Raver posseses the King.
Maybe that's how "Berek" is introduced to the Land.
After Roger escapes, he raises the people of the South Plains for the Queen against the Mad King.
The Earthpower that speaks to him on the slopes of Mt Thunder is a "caesure cast" Linden speaking through the new Staff of Law.
No time conflict with the Staff either.
The new Staff isn't *set up* yet with Earthpower rules like the old.
And the Old Staff doesn't exist yet.


Also the Guardian of the One Tree = Stave.
That would explain how a Haruchai got there in the first place.
And how Brinn was able to take his place.
They did that "mind talk" thing before the end.

Just some of my wild thoughts.

[Sheol]

SRD likes to think of time as a line. Not a mobius strip, not a loop. A line. So we can assume that he wouldn't have time become a loop in his books.

[CovenantJr]

I like to think that Roger will become Berek

And I disagree with this almost as strongly as the TC-as-Berek theory, for the same reason Roger is described as quite strongly resembling TC; wouldn't Covenant Senior have noticed Berek's ghost looked a hell of a lot like him? I think he would.

Sheol - I'd be interested to hear why you think SRD considers time exlusively linear. I'm not saying I think you're wrong, I'm just curious as to why you say that.

[I'm Murrin]

SRD stated it in two different GI posts this month.

[CovenantJr]

Aha! My eternal foe, the GI!

[Akasri]

And I disagree with this almost as strongly as the TC-as-Berek theory, for the same reason Roger is described as quite strongly resembling TC; wouldn't Covenant Senior have noticed Berek's ghost looked a hell of a lot like him? I think he would.

Did Covenant have much contact with Roger over the years since Joan took him and left? If not, then he might not have recognized his own son grown to adulthood and in ghost-form. Just a thought

[CovenantJr]

No, he didn't. But since Roger looks quite significantly like his dad I think Covenant would notice. "Holy pants! Berek has my nose! His eyes are more like Joan's though................WAIT A MINUTE!"

[Mitch]

I've listened to the vid's on time, as well. My impression was that time was linear in the sense that one event followed another. Whether you're on a line (1 dimension), a loop (can be drawn in 2 dimensions), or a line on a mobius strip (3 dimensions), all your experiences (events) would still occur one right after another and you would not be able to jump from event A to event C, without passing through event B, because you as an entity existing on that line, would not be able to leave the line, only travel along it.

A simular experience in our 3 (let's leave time out for the time being) dimensions would be if you picked one direction and proceeded along it indefinitely. If you never came back to your starting point, you would believe you were traveling in a straight line. If after some time you did indeed come back to your starting point, although you believed you were traveling in a straight line, you would eventually realize that it was a loop that was traveled, EVEN THOUGH YOU SAW NO DEPARTURE FROM THAT STRAIGHT LINE TRAVELED.

And if space were twisted, like on to a mobius strip, upon your return to the starting point, you would find one additional fascinating thing had happened to you. Can you guess what that would be?

In the Runes story, the time travel has one important difference. He/She/It left the existing time-space, simular as the point creature left the line, and then re-entered at a different point. In other words, the line/loop/mobius strip restriction has morph-ed into something quite different.

I hope this may enhance your time line discussion. If not, that's OK, my fingers needed the exercise.