...next on the List of Consideration of the Metaphor, is the , outside of Law, the unnatural ones, from Viles to Ur-viles, demondim, skest, (skurj?), wayhim, and even the jer-reds(spl)..
Lord Foul is despair, so what are these creatures? They are not natural, and most are spawn of the other. And they share physical attributes but serve in different functions, and at times appear to switch allegiences. I've searched the posts and am truelly impressed with the attempts to time line these creatures. Quite the literal exploration. But , again, if Lord Foul is despair in the figurative landscape, what are these creations?
I can only suggest that perhaps they are Lies. Easy now. Generally speakin, something not natural in The Land, could be considered a lie. And further, there are all kinds of lies now aren't there? The malicious lie, the self serving lie, the white lie, the naive' lie, etc. And Lies, can be used for evil and good ends..??..That seems to be repeated in Runes, the evil for good ends, question.
Perhaps The Viles are the worst kind of Lie. Rather subjective as in,,a Truth that turns out to be a lie,,or a known Lie that is repeated with malicious intent..What do you think? The Demondim, just stark untruth that refuses to die, can be easily summoned. The wayhim, white lies?
Interesting to note, the allegiences to the spawned ,and who the spawned have aligned themselves with, the various levels of " trust". So, what Lie or lies is Linden believing? What lie or lies is she willing to risk or aligning herself with inorder to reach her goal?
I especially liked the White Lie of the wayhim, Their taking of the Staff of Law because nobody was around to " protect "it.,,perfect little justification of their Weird,nicely twisted excuse for theft.And they paid for it, and Linden healed ( forgave?)them for it,and then They REALLY paid for it. Just like a lie. And she gets all Guilty then says , screw 'em , its all for my son. yep, life is a series of hard choices....MEL
There are Lies and then there are LIES
Moderator: dlbpharmd
Well, all I can really say is that Donaldsons' world has consequences for actions. Linden isn't going to get away with going back in time. It's not that easy. Lindens' attitude of Whatever It Takes to free Jeremiah is going to rebound back on her in a big and bad way.
At least, it will if Donaldsons' First and Second Chronicles are any indication of how things work.
The Waynhim were committing a slow and painful suicide, by stealing the Staff of Law. The Staff eventually would have killed them all, had Linden not arrived to take it. I'd call that consequences, and in line with the rules of Donaldsons' setting.
At least, it will if Donaldsons' First and Second Chronicles are any indication of how things work.
The Waynhim were committing a slow and painful suicide, by stealing the Staff of Law. The Staff eventually would have killed them all, had Linden not arrived to take it. I'd call that consequences, and in line with the rules of Donaldsons' setting.
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Edelaith...Staying with the wayhim, after the discussion with Esmer, he makes it known that the wayhim know their fate. That business strikes me like a youngster ( pre-teen) getting caught in a lie, rather poignant. I could almost see the lower lip curled , the pout, perhaps a tear on cheek squeezed out by the pressures of feeling the lie. A spanking could be considered a relief compared to the gnashing boulders of guilt inside.
Yes, Linden has to deal with the Lie of breakin the Law of Time. Her justification for the Lie, well, now we get to another dimension. How many other " justifications" will there be, and does not each, bring her closer to being able to fullfill Fouls needs.? At what point does she realize the overall effect of all the little lies?
She has to deal with Demondim. Theres some nasty Lies. It will be interesting to see if she opts for an even bigger lie when she deals with those Demondim.....and..what does that make of the ending of Runes?..MEL...PS,,,And,,that Esmer speaks their language!. I'd say its quite evident in the Q&A secssions he has with Linden ie: the lie of omission and or obfuscation..he has quite the skill. Its interesting how Donaldson twists it, with the observation by Linden,more than once, of whoever, essentially telling the truth. That is, what they say is true, but that there is so much more not being said...Of course, she was guilty of the same until pressures mounted to finally declare that Foul has her son.,MEL
Yes, Linden has to deal with the Lie of breakin the Law of Time. Her justification for the Lie, well, now we get to another dimension. How many other " justifications" will there be, and does not each, bring her closer to being able to fullfill Fouls needs.? At what point does she realize the overall effect of all the little lies?
She has to deal with Demondim. Theres some nasty Lies. It will be interesting to see if she opts for an even bigger lie when she deals with those Demondim.....and..what does that make of the ending of Runes?..MEL...PS,,,And,,that Esmer speaks their language!. I'd say its quite evident in the Q&A secssions he has with Linden ie: the lie of omission and or obfuscation..he has quite the skill. Its interesting how Donaldson twists it, with the observation by Linden,more than once, of whoever, essentially telling the truth. That is, what they say is true, but that there is so much more not being said...Of course, she was guilty of the same until pressures mounted to finally declare that Foul has her son.,MEL
I know the Demondim, Ur-Viles, and Waynhim are not natural creatures, and all of them exist outside of the Law. Their mere existence is a Wrong.
I guess that is why they hate themselves.
The Ur-Viles, hating themselves, allied with Lord Foul to end the world, so their existence would be ended. That's self hatred! But it's twisted even further. Why not commit mass suicide? Why take the whole world with them?
Unless in their self pity and hate they decided to wreak vengeance on the supposed victimizer (the Creator, Creation, the World, whatever in the World created them) in the process of their self destruction?
The Waynhim share the same colossal self hatred as the Ur-Viles. If the Waynhim are an inherent Wrong, and this Wrongness is constantly perceived with Health Sight, it must be pretty hard to take. I could see how it could drive them insane as a race.
Yet the Waynhim turned away from both self destruction and retribution, into some mysterious interpretation of their Fate which is not understood by myself.
Perhaps their whole semi-immortal life is a lie, and all the principles they live by are lies. Perhaps they lie to themselves constantly. I don't know. I wish an expert of the Waynhim (such as the author) would explain them more clearly to me. I'm guessing that might happen, in Fatal Revenant, with the revelations on the Demondim.
Linden is living a lie too, though, and the results will be disastrous, in my opinion.
Linden speaks of saving her son, Jeremiah, at any and all costs. She compares this with Covenants' saving of the snake-bitten girl. Somehow, the analogy doesn't fit. I can't explain this. Call it a gut feeling.
I mean, Covenant was acting out of a sense of horrified mercy and desperation to save a life. But Covenant wasn't thinking about it, so much as just doing it. Whereas Linden is doing quite a lot of thinking, and the thinking constantly boils down to Whatever It Takes, a deliberate ruthlessness that Covenant did not have.
Maybe it's just me, but I think Linden is covering ruthlessness and expediency in a mantle of love and caring, and in the Land that is a disastrous thing to do. Such thinking is disastrous enough in our world; in the Land it is many times more so.
The Raynhim had it right. Unfortunately, as Stave said, Linden doesn't listen. I have to wonder if the Haruchai, horrified at Lindens' actions, won't try to kill her?
I guess an analogy is in order here. The Lords would have been horrified at the idea of strip mining the Land for fuel and minerals, hacking down forests for wood, and sacrificing thousands of people for the greater good.
Going back in time, violating Time, makes those things look like minor transgressions in comparison. Even Linden herself perceived the violation of time as a kind of rape, and the author has stated rape can be used as an analogy for anything that is truly evil. So what Linden did, was really, really, bad.
The Waynhim thought so, or at least said so. Good cannot be accomplished by evil means, they said, so they thought Lindens' actions were evil. However, the Wayhim themselves are a Wrong, an evil as it were, and Lindens' healing of them (a Right?) seemed to convince them to hand over the Staff.
I guess I'm lost on this. I don't know what the ramifications are going to be. I just remember that everything done in the Land had consequences. Even minor acts had major consequences. Violating Time is not a minor act in any sense, and a ruthless attitude by the protagonist doesn't forebode good things.
Pardon my rambling. If anyone can offer a clarification of this, please do so. Opinions are welcome. Because I think Pandoras' Box was opened by Linden, she is blind to this fact, the Waynhim I do not understand, and it seems things are progressing at jet speed towards some sort of Armaggedon.
I guess that is why they hate themselves.
The Ur-Viles, hating themselves, allied with Lord Foul to end the world, so their existence would be ended. That's self hatred! But it's twisted even further. Why not commit mass suicide? Why take the whole world with them?
Unless in their self pity and hate they decided to wreak vengeance on the supposed victimizer (the Creator, Creation, the World, whatever in the World created them) in the process of their self destruction?
The Waynhim share the same colossal self hatred as the Ur-Viles. If the Waynhim are an inherent Wrong, and this Wrongness is constantly perceived with Health Sight, it must be pretty hard to take. I could see how it could drive them insane as a race.
Yet the Waynhim turned away from both self destruction and retribution, into some mysterious interpretation of their Fate which is not understood by myself.
Perhaps their whole semi-immortal life is a lie, and all the principles they live by are lies. Perhaps they lie to themselves constantly. I don't know. I wish an expert of the Waynhim (such as the author) would explain them more clearly to me. I'm guessing that might happen, in Fatal Revenant, with the revelations on the Demondim.
Linden is living a lie too, though, and the results will be disastrous, in my opinion.
Linden speaks of saving her son, Jeremiah, at any and all costs. She compares this with Covenants' saving of the snake-bitten girl. Somehow, the analogy doesn't fit. I can't explain this. Call it a gut feeling.
I mean, Covenant was acting out of a sense of horrified mercy and desperation to save a life. But Covenant wasn't thinking about it, so much as just doing it. Whereas Linden is doing quite a lot of thinking, and the thinking constantly boils down to Whatever It Takes, a deliberate ruthlessness that Covenant did not have.
Maybe it's just me, but I think Linden is covering ruthlessness and expediency in a mantle of love and caring, and in the Land that is a disastrous thing to do. Such thinking is disastrous enough in our world; in the Land it is many times more so.
The Raynhim had it right. Unfortunately, as Stave said, Linden doesn't listen. I have to wonder if the Haruchai, horrified at Lindens' actions, won't try to kill her?
I guess an analogy is in order here. The Lords would have been horrified at the idea of strip mining the Land for fuel and minerals, hacking down forests for wood, and sacrificing thousands of people for the greater good.
Going back in time, violating Time, makes those things look like minor transgressions in comparison. Even Linden herself perceived the violation of time as a kind of rape, and the author has stated rape can be used as an analogy for anything that is truly evil. So what Linden did, was really, really, bad.
The Waynhim thought so, or at least said so. Good cannot be accomplished by evil means, they said, so they thought Lindens' actions were evil. However, the Wayhim themselves are a Wrong, an evil as it were, and Lindens' healing of them (a Right?) seemed to convince them to hand over the Staff.
I guess I'm lost on this. I don't know what the ramifications are going to be. I just remember that everything done in the Land had consequences. Even minor acts had major consequences. Violating Time is not a minor act in any sense, and a ruthless attitude by the protagonist doesn't forebode good things.
Pardon my rambling. If anyone can offer a clarification of this, please do so. Opinions are welcome. Because I think Pandoras' Box was opened by Linden, she is blind to this fact, the Waynhim I do not understand, and it seems things are progressing at jet speed towards some sort of Armaggedon.