Bakker's The Prince of Nothing series

[I'm Murrin]

Hmm. Apparently this is old news, but I only just found out about it:
The first book of The Aspect-Emperor, the second series of books in the encompassing Second Apocalypse, will not be titled The Great Ordeal. The title for the book is The Judging Eye. Nor will the series be a duology as originally planned: It is now to be a trilogy. The second book will be titled The Shortest Path, with the third as yet unnamed.

Neuropath also has a US publisher, and is set for a September release--a few months behind the UK.

[Spiral Jacobs]

(Massive bump alert)

I just finished The Warrior-Prophet last night and I although I liked the book overall, I was a little pissed of at the ending. As Farmer Ur-Ted says on the previous page (somewhere in 2007 I think) the ending felt very rushed. How the Holy War guys can go out and beat the heathens after what must be months of famine was too much of a stretch for me. Also, the epilogue (or what should have been an epilogue instead of being tacked at the end of the last chapter) came somewhat out of the blue. I'm a bit scared now for book 3....

[I'm Murrin]

Though I know it doesn't help much with accepting it in the book, most of the events of the Holy War--including how that siege ends--are taken directly from the historical First Crusade, so it is, at least, possible.

[Spiral Jacobs]

Ah, I didn't know that. But then I never do read up on authors much and take most books at face value.

Also, some speculation: as soon as Achamian becomes convinced Kellhus is the Harbinger, I found it funny to realise that he overlooks the fact that Anasurimbor Moënghus has been around the Three Seas much longer than Kellhus and might well be the actual Harbinger. According to the dictionary, a harbinger is "one that presages or foreshadows what is to come", and given the established presence of the Consult and other bad guys, Kellhus is hardly a 'harbinger' according to that definition, now is he? Moënghus may have been the actual prophesied harbinger but he decided to settle in Simeh.

[I'm Murrin]

I guess it's the fact that Kellhus seems--makes himself seem--so damn important that it doesn't even occur to Akka that it might not be him. That's just how good Kellhus is at what he does.

[Zarathustra]

Also, the epilogue (or what should have been an epilogue instead of being tacked at the end of the last chapter) came somewhat out of the blue. I'm a bit scared now for book 3....

I love this author, and most of this series, but I definitely did NOT like this turn. I don't want to spoil if for you, but your fear is a justified. I'm not saying why, but trust your instincts. You're on the right track.

The 3rd book is the worst of the three. I didn't like the conclusion. I didn't like the war. And I hated that the wizards have this super cool magic system and philosophical explanation, but it only seems to be good for burning stuff.

[Holsety]

The 3rd book is the worst of the three. I didn't like the conclusion. I didn't like the war. And I hated that the wizards have this super cool magic system and philosophical explanation, but it only seems to be good for burning stuff.

Well, maybe that's all part of the overall theme of the series. The schools that have entwined themselves with the "petty affairs" of nations are all weaker, in terms of sheer magical power, than the mandate. IIRC even among those blind magicians, Moenghus had said he wasn't fully accepted by the main leaders because of his abilities. Even the mandate is tied up in political intrigue and the like. Kellhus, compared to the schools, has a wider view, good or bad by the reader's standards, and that, perhaps, is why he has so quickly become so able at the gnosis.

Moënghus may have been the actual prophesied harbinger but he decided to settle in Simeh.

I agree it's strange that Achamian never thought of this. But there is a very clear explanation at the end of book 3 that clears it up. Moenghus is, according to Kellhus, more of the same. (not for Akka, since Akka wasn't there, but for the reader) Or maybe I'm forgetting what the Harbinger is.

If the Harbinger is simply "a sign" so to speak, Kellhus is it because Moenghus' appearance went mostly unnoticed - I don't even know if the Cishuarim know he's an Anasurimbor, and certainly the Inithri don't -, while Kellhus, as an Anasurimbor, has drawn the entire Holy War around him.

"if a tree falls in the forest and no one's there to hear it, does it make a sound?"

[Holsety]

Malik, as far as the whole "Kellhus as enlightened hope of humanity" thing that I never responded to,
Let me clear something up. When I said "from his POV" what I meant is that KELLHUS thinks Kellhus is the "enlightened hope of humanity." I don't think Bakker does, and I know I don't think so.

Bakker on Kellhus (from pat's fantasy hotlist):

He’s the 1% smart-me 100% of the time - which is why I don’t trust him for a second.

From now on, major spoilers from The Thousandfold Thought may be thrown around:

Spoiler

I think it's clear that the Inithri are being scammed. Kellhus has insinuated himself into the Inithri tradition as a prophet, his words rewrite scripture (recall him telling Akka he can "undo" the idea that sorcerers are damned).

As that prophet, I think he'll be looking to rewrite a great deal of the Inithri faith; when Kellhus and Moenghus talk, it's clear that the intent is to completely transform Inithrism and Fanimry. Or maybe just the Inithri, to some extent I think there are a few advantages Inithrism holds over the Fanim:

1: Among the Fanim, the Cishuarim are accepted, while the schools of the Inithri are viewed as unholy. As symbols of, more than anything else, raw destructive power, control of the schools is invaluable and by breaking down the barriers between the inithri and the schools Kellhus will win their loyalty.

2: Continuing with the schools, the only surviving gnostic school is among the Inithri. The Mandate might well be absolutely necessary for combating the Consult. Additionally, if Kellhus' ultimate goal is to deal with the Consult, they are the only faction which are already on his side. Thus, if the schools can be reconciled with the thousand temples, inithrism is preferable.

3: Inithrism is more suited to usurpation and change than Fanimry is. Inri Sejenus set a precedent when his manmade text, the Tractate, was held up on the same level of divinity as The Tusk. I suspect that in creating the whole Tusk/Tractate dichotomy Bakker was referring to the Torah and the New Testament on some level. The Torah has a sort of mysterious origin, passed down to moses from god, and the passing down of divine law is part of the myth. In the case of the New Testament, it's canonical but its origins are slightly more mundane (recorded by Jesus' disciples). Also, there's a certain conflict between the "messages" of the old and new testaments. I'm not sure if there's one between the Tusk and the Tractate, as I'm completely clueless about the actual contents of the Tusk, but Kellhus certainly thinks he can get away with contradicting either/both of them.

4: Fanimry is something of a mystery. All I really know about them is A: they believe the tusk is an evil manifestation of false gods, B: they are monotheistic, C: it seems the cishuarim are part of the faith, and the cishuarim derive much of their power from passion, rather than intellect. We know from Moenghus, however, that the whole passion thing doesn't work well for Dunyains, and Kellhus thinks that the Psukhe, at least, is a dead end. (and he might even see fanimry as a whole as a dead end, there's just no telling with the bastard).

5: The Fanim may be less fanatical and less easily manipulated. They allowed Inithri to live in their lands and to make pilgrimages to Shimeh. It seems that Moenghus is respected by the Cishuarim, but he is more feared than he is loved.

The slaughter of the fanim by the inithri, to kellhus, was...a pretext. A show. To make himself nothing less than the messiah of the inithri warriors. Inithrism is his now. So perhaps it was just his choice of the religion more suited to his ways. (although it was also a matter of convenience, in terms of taking the side he was geographically positioned to start with, and in terms of having both sides of the conflict manipulated by Dunyain).

What I'm unsure about is whether Kellhus is being scammed. I think Kellhus acts less as an individual than as the director of the transformation taking place within Inithrism. Kellhus himself is wrapped up in that transformation. As Protathis, the fictional scholar from the Three Seas, says All Heaven Cannot Shine Through a Single Crack; either Kellhus can't be trusted (he's wrong) or he in truth will bring further revelation to the Inithri (thousandfold thought and whatnot). But even if he does, he's already helped the Inithri perpetrate some shitty, terrible things.

I hope along with you that Kellhus doesn't "win," though I don't really want the world to end either.

[Spiral Jacobs]

OK I'm gonna try to hold off reading that until I've finished book 3

[Zarathustra]

I'm not spoiler tagging books that have been out for two years. Read at your own risk.

I think it's clear that the Inithri are being scammed.

I think this is the impression Bakker laid out from the beginning. In that sense, I agree that it's "clear." However, by the end of the second book, we're given enough to doubt that impression. He's starting to believe his own scam. And this impression is reinforced in the third book. Instead of the scam becoming clearer, we're given a lot more to doubt it. Even his own father thinks he's going crazy. Now, if Bakker turns this around later and shows how this is just taking the scam to a higher level, then fine. That will be cool. But as far as it stands now, I don't see how that can be anything other than an author's cheap trick. I say this for a very specific reason: Khellus's scam would work just fine without him believing it, or without us readers suspecting that he believes it. His scam could work just like it has worked up to this point. The only people being "scammed" in this new twist (i.e. Bakker implying that Khellus is falling for his own scam) is US, the readers. And when you're scamming your readers, you're employing cheap tricks. Sure, writers must mislead their readers at times. But it must be for a reason embedded in the plot, otherwise it's merely contrived for our benefit. The characters in the book can't know about our reactions. Information given "merely" for our reaction is a contrivance--especially if things were going just fine without this reader manipulation.

So I don't think it's reader manipulation. I think Khellus actually does believe his own legend. It's character development, not a scam. I simply don't like the direction of the character development. Unless Khellus pulls himself out of this hole, or Bakker shows how falling in the hole was necessary to transcend it (similar to Joyse or Warden Dios), then I won't like it.

Donaldson handles this misdirection so much better.

[Nerdanel]

Re: the scam

I think Kellhus was a true prophet thinking himself a false prophet pretending to be a true prophet. Kellhus didn't use to believe in gods just like he didn't believe in magic but gradually events convinced him otherwise.

The twist in this is that I think Kellhus is a prophet

Spoiler

of the No-God.

I noticed that his late POV scenes were very careful to dance around his true motivations. I think nothing in the conversation between Kellhus and Moënghus can be taken at face value, since both participants are well capable of lying and besides are capable of being mistaken. Even Dûnyain cannot draw perfect conclusions when they lack critical information.

[Spiral Jacobs]

Book 3 is done...there are so many comments I want to make that I don't know where to begin.

[Farm Ur-Ted]

Well, then, pony them up!

[Vraith]

I haven't read any of this thread, just started reading the series, don't want to spoil. I'll go back when I'm done and catch up, but for now just some thoughts as I go, not deep dissection...not on a first read. Sorry if stuff has already been said.

Just done prologue and Part 1 book 1 [The Sorcerer]
It made me laugh, and I think it bodes well that it opens with a quote [though not a really famous one] from "Beyond Good and Evil"...likely the most hated book of philosophy ever written, especially hated by folk who've never read it.

So far, I like what I've seen of the idea behind the monks.
And what is known so far of Sorcery [which isn't that much yet]
And of course he's riffing on and twisting real cultures...particularly mid-east at the moment...some possibilities there, and so far much better done than Jordan in WOT.
I'm liking that important characters are mixed along several dimensions [power and weakness, knowing and naive and such] but for, as far as I can tell at this point, good character-driven reasons...unlike, to pick on Jordan again, Rand and almost everyone else.

But most important/exciting so far:
I really enjoy his voice. It's exotic and familiar at the same time, in a way that works internally and externally for me...and it feels complex without being convoluted? I'll probably have more to say on that after some thought at the end or upon a re-read. But for now, I'm just loving the way it feels and flows.

[Zarathustra]

But most important/exciting so far:
I really enjoy his voice. It's exotic and familiar at the same time, in a way that works internally and externally for me...and it feels complex without being convoluted? I'll probably have more to say on that after some thought at the end or upon a re-read. But for now, I'm just loving the way it feels and flows.

Yeah, that's the best part. The man is Wise. And Awake. And Aware.

[Vraith]

So, I went right through this thing.
Many of the things I said in my last post stayed with me, especially about the style/voice.
I'll start with some not-so-great things.
Primary: some things, especially, but not only, Khellhus/Christ too damn direct/explicit/real world. [Z mentioned that upthread somewhere, too I think].

Petty detail: if the Chorae are so necessary, so powerful, keep the Sorcerers under control, and NO ONE knows how to make them anymore, using it on arrowtips seems a pretty silly thing to be doing. [if it isn't silly, at least he didn't describe, in too-much-info detail, all the people after battles scouring the battlegrounds looking for magic arrows.]

I still like his voice/style...but as things progressed, a little in the 2nd, but almost all the 3rd, there was too much of it, too many words...which might have been OK, except they were describing too little happening.
Especially, for instance, various scenes involving death and entrails:
In a real world/real war, you kinda want the soldiers to see-but-get-by the massive death and horror at some point. Not really pay attention to it. IN A BOOK you DON't want people telling themselves "for fucks sake, ANOTHER guy getting strangled with his own intestines??? Don't they have anything ELSE to do?...I'd skip this shit but some important little detail might fall out of his guts and into the paragraph."

And some good: Achamian. Man, I LOVE that guy, his tale, his growth, his everything. One of the best characters in Fantasy, far as I'm concerned.

I didn't like Esmi much at first, started to when she hit the road, then she flattened/got shallow again...but in the 2nd 1/2 of last book she really grew on me. Ended thinking she's a really cool character, even if she's no Akka.

The way the "magics" work.

And a good-but-bad:
In many ways, I liked Cnaiur quite a lot. The only thing that bugged me...and maybe it's not really there, but it seems to be...was the feeling that Moenghus "made" him gay with his power/manipulation. Somewhat ameliorated by the ending, I guess...but not really, not enough to make up for the mass of verbiage devoted to the issue prior to that end.

And a nearly great, until it was ruined:
One of the best things, which was nice to see, and started early on and grew/became stronger...he tends to give full weight and credit to ALL sides/positions in the philosophical/ideological/existential arguments/conflicts. Not that some side/point/view doesn't "win" [even if only on some points/in some places/temporarily]...but that Bakker, through the characters, always has someone on every side who can, and does, bring the A-game. [the opposite of Plato through Socrates IRL, and much of fantasy as a rule.]...
THEN, after all that work Kellhus basically contradicts ALL of it. NONE of the arguments really make sense/make a difference, he just throws them all away. Ya know what would have been better? If instead of Holiness and/or God's and Demons being real/important, it was the PASSION that he states that his father is missing [and by extension so is he and all the Duny's.] that has an important part to play. Cuz, even though that is in other works, passion is unique/individual/personal..."God['s]" are, in the end, all the same thing.

I still liked it a ton, which is probably why Kellhus pissed me off so at the end. I'll still read Aspect ones when I get them...hopefully it'll get fixed, and the good stuff will work/be important again.

[Avatar]

I loved Cnaiur and Achamian. But there were quite a few things I didn't much like. I also love the whole idea of the logos.

I ended the series still not knowing if Kelhus was a good guy or not. And IIRC, I feel the same after the first two books of the next series. (Which I should probably reread soon.)

--A

[Avatar]

Bump for Brinn. And me...I wonder if I got to the reread I said I was going to do above? Oh well, time for another anyway.

(Oh, according to the "what sci-fi/fantasy book are you reading now" thread, I did. )

--A

[SerScot]

The Great Ordeal will be released in early July.

Sorry about the error in title.

[Brinn]

Yours truly has purchased an ARC and has begun "The Great Ordeal". Can't wait to continue my favorite fantasy series of all time!