I Think I Got A Whopper

[lurch]

....Linden in Runes...analogus to America up to and including 9/11? Can you see the trees for the forest?.....MEL

[Loredoctor]

I cant see your point for the obscurity, lurch.

[lurch]

..Theres Linden in her isolation. Being the healer, she would be dispensing healing alot. Telling the sick what to do. But her Love for Tom is a Love for a dead man,,her love for her son is unrecipricated and shes at her wits end with Joan. She is in a world of her own, isolated from real depth exchange,,as one other put it,,emotionally unvalidated.
...Consider America before 9/11. A newly elected President saying His America wasn't going to be the world's policeman. His admin turned their back on international agreements. Even with prior attempts of taking out the Twin Towers, the consensus here in America was that would not happen here. Terrorism was something Europe had to deal with. And even when all the clues were present, a certain not understanding what was going on prevailed thru all the structure that was inplace to stop it from happening.
..But the bottom line is..Lindens world of isolation..as a result of being in Love with a deadman..is at the cost of being real. America wasn't real in its isolationist Hopeful thinking either. In Both cases, Pure Despair, Despite, came uninvited and had their way.
....Lindens arc as well as Americas..is to find the balance in the center of reality,,is to understand the cost of isolation,,to understand the need to set example and live the words of ones advise. Get out there and have real realtionships with the world so you know whats going on. Possibly..just maybe..heal the despair before it becomes despair.

One can't take it too specific,,because metaphors are not meant for the specific..They are more general in nature. I've sat on this observation for some time now and now that SRD has admitted that the 1st chrons did in a way reflect the social political tensions of that time,,its fair to suggest how it may be possible during these times. I can't help for seeing Lindens plite analogous to Americas plite. There we were, with our head in the sand, everything just honky dorey, and out of nowhere, Bam! ..The rest is open for discussion.........MEL

[Variol Farseer]

The human brain does nearly all its work by finding patterns in apparently unconnected data. When the data are already organized by being cast in abstract language, complete with narrative and symbolism, it's almost impossible not to find patterns. The function of critical thinking is to reject patterns that don't really reflect any similarity or periodicity in the real world. People have seen human faces in photographs from Mars, and the Man in the Moon has been reliably observed for millennia; but that doesn't mean those bodies are inhabited by humans.

If you describe Runes in these terms, and 9/11 in those terms, of course there are similarities. But a lot of people wouldn't think of 9/11 as having much resemblance to the story you told — or Runes, for that matter. If this were a case at law, I don't think it would ever get past the grand jury.

By the way, when SRD talks about the First Chronicles reflecting the sociopolitical tensions of the time, the time he is really thinking of is roughly 1968-1971, when a full-blown domestic crisis emerged in the U.S. in reaction to the Vietnam War. A great deal of his political and ethical understanding was shaped by that period, and not much, perhaps, by subsequent world events.

Hints dropped in the GI suggest that SRD doesn't think of international terrorism as a significant issue, despised George W. Bush long before 9/11, and perhaps even thinks Americans have been reacting hysterically to a nonexistent threat. I don't know these things to be the case, but that particular set of beliefs is so common among literary intellectuals that I feel fairly confident, even on the basis of incomplete evidence, in attributing it to him as well.

[Loredoctor]

Excellent post, VF!

[lurch]

..Thank you VF and Lore for your excellent thoughts on the human brain. Yet, i pitty the person who reads a piece of literature, watches a play, observes a work of illustration, winds thru a poem,,,and is not inspired to contemplate.

..And not only contemplate but ,,able and willing to communicate thoughts in society, not as intellectual property, but as the original source material, as possible inspiration for even more contemplation and maybe even inspired insight. Posting here or in any chatroom,,should hardley be a Grand Jury experience.

The author has written Mystery , who done it, novels, A good portion of the Mordants Need was a mystery as well as the obvious , " The Man Who.." series are example. So, to me, there is a connect the dots, find the pattern, requirement to Runes( runes, the word itself suggests "mystery", unknown ). There is a basic underlining question. How is it Linden ,,with her Florence Nightengale life,,sacrificing her life in the service of all things Convenant,,becomes subject to Lord Fouls machinations?..Or as i like to put it..What is her " Leprosy?". One of the answers occuring to me appears to fit a fair description of conditions pre 9/11 here in America.

True..Lindens travails could fit an infinite other analogous events, situations, realities. At least I hope so. I await...........MEL

[Zarathustra]

. . .SRD doesn't think of international terrorism as a significant issue, despised George W. Bush long before 9/11, and perhaps even thinks Americans have been reacting hysterically to a nonexistent threat. . . .that particular set of beliefs is so common among literary intellectuals . . .

Yeah, I got this feeling as well from the GI. It's tragic, really. I don't care which party controlled White House (I didn't vote for either major party, I'm Libertarian), I would still be concerned about international terrorism. And yes, I see this belief system common among not only authors, but musicians, actors, artists, etc. What is it about the Arts that draws so many similarly thinking people? Where is the diversity of thought?

Or, maybe we're just over-simplifying things, and there actually is a diversity of thought out there among Artists. I haven't taken a poll, or anything, so I'm just going from my necessarily limited impression.

Nevertheless, a part of me grieves when I hear such ideas espoused by those whom I otherwise admire.

[Variol Farseer]

There is a lot of groupthink in the arts community, and a lot of pressure to conform. Actually, most artistic people really aren't all that political, but take their colour from their surroundings. I think SRD falls into that category. At least he's intelligent and critical about it, unlike some of the Hollywood drones whose knowledge of world affairs begins and ends with knowing which slogans they're supposed to chant.

Ever since the 1960s, the Left has made a particular effort to put like-minded people in influential positions in the media, arts, and academia. The counterculture and New-Left types who started out then are a few years from retirement now, still at the peak of their influence, and it just doesn't do to argue with them in public. At least, not if you want them to publish you/film you/record you/give you grant money.

When St. Paul said, 'The love of money is the root of all evil,' I sometimes wonder if he had grant whores in mind.

[lurch]

.There is a difficult position for not just the "artist" community but for alot of Americans. To be critical of the"hysteria" in reaction to 9/11 event but not dismissive of the overall "terrorist threat" is a precarious perceptive tight rope walk indeed.

The "artist" community may be the most sensitive to encroachments on freedoms and libertys. Not just the personal inspections at the airport, but the forces of conformity to The Red White and Blue, my President rite or wrong, the suspension of critical analysis and expression are of their high concern because for alot of them..its what they do. To be directed on what and how one expresses themselves by a majority party is their concern. One can say , yea,,but they don't seem to mind if the liberals are in power,,but the problem with that is,,the liberals don't seem to mind letting market forces directing the course. You Can express what ever you want,,good luck finding a publisher, a sponsor, a studio, etc...

.Right now, there is at least one International Media Conglomerate that immediately turns any critical analysis of the current administrating of things , into accusatory yelps of traitor, terrorist supporters, Taliban Lovers,,etc,,etc. This is alot closer to Thought Control than letting Market Forces determine what is expressed on a large scale. Unfortuantely ,,for ANY artist, we do live in a commercial world. And ,as in any chosen profession,,the road to success is pretty much determined by those who have gone before us...oh well.

There are conflicting thoughts stated by SRD in the GI. There is the " its just a story",,i don't consciously put my politics into the story..its the readers business what the reader gets out of the story,,to , events of the times had influence...Well..really good fiction is a reflection on the Human Condition of the era. I have difficulty in seeing how signifcant events of the times wouldn't have influence in Theme and plot. Any artist not influenced by 9/11 events continues the tradition of head in the sand mentality that got us there. So, there is a bit of paradox there. Deal with the influence of the events , be crtical if one must,but at the same time, not be viewed as dismissive while pointing out the hysteria..Quite the tight rope indeed...MEL

[wayfriend]

....Linden in Runes...analogus to America up to and including 9/11? Can you see the trees for the forest?.....MEL

Of course! Haven Farm is the Pentagon, and Kevin's Watch is the WTC. Joan represents Uranium smuggled in from Nigeria, and the Elohim are the UN crying "beware half-handed invasions of sovereign nations!" And ... this is so clear now ... Linden's journey through time to obtain the Staff of Law is a metaphor for Dick Cheney and the Project for the New American Century traveling back in time to reinstate the Cold War, but unwittingly unleashing the Demondim Iran, who weild the ancient nuclear doomsday which was thought destroyed by the dissolution of the Soviet Union. And Stave is soooo Bill Frist, breaking with the party to support Earthpower research.

( )

[Warmark]

[dlbpharmd]

I wonder if this should be moved to the Tank?

[lurch]

...I beg your pardon D. I'm surfacing basic Theme here.I would hope Somebody can chime in about beyond the plot. Its interesting to note that on the LFB book jackets it was clearly stated SRD was Conscientous Objector to the Vietnam War. To say that was a marketing decision is like, well dah! But to understand how that fact maybe dealt with,, in the 1st Chrons isn't so easy and not so apparent here.

...One can still take that basic fact of the author's early decision and see how he may be exploring it yet further 20 to 30 some years later in life. Anybody?

...and Wayfriend..you forgot one...and its so clear now..of course Wayfriend is the Ed Helms of The Dailey Show.....MEL

[ur-bane]

...Yet, i pitty the person who reads a piece of literature, watches a play, observes a work of illustration, winds thru a poem,,,and is not inspired to contemplate.

lurch, contemplation is not at issue here. The replies are in reference to your association of Linden with 9/11 America.
Maybe you could say the SRD was using her to make a statement to that effect in Runes had the real-world segment included her surviving that particular day, and her reactions to it shaping her for her journey through the Land and Time.

But as it stands, it is (much like people who look at a log and see the Loch Ness monster) simply one person seeing what one wants to see. Not once while reading Runes did I feel in the slightest that Linden could be representative of 9/11 America. It's time to call a Linden a Linden.

...Or as i like to put it..What is her " Leprosy?". One of the answers occuring to me appears to fit a fair description of conditions pre 9/11 here in America.

I think that Linden's "Leprosy" (which I am going to define as her "fact of existence") has been discussed previously. Linden's drive, or fact of existence, is the need to be needed.

I am sorry that I cannot associate Linden with 9/11 America the way you can. SRD is not making any kind of political statement with Linden.

[Usivius]

I think it has been stated by the author on many occassions that he never consciously makes any direct parallels of this sort. Anything that may slip in would be totally unconcious, and not to the depth I thnk Lurch is aluding to. Having said that, anything a viewer or reader finds in any art it valid.

[dlbpharmd]

SRD is not making any kind of political statement with Linden.

I agree. When SRD starts tying the Chronicles to his political beliefs (which differ from my own) then that's when I stop reading the Chronicles.

[Creator]

Now I also wonder if SRD is thinking even a little bit about his own ex-wife when he has Covenant's ex-wife pound herself in the head!!

[Variol Farseer]

Having said that, anything a viewer or reader finds in any art it valid.

Careful with that line of thought. If true, then the Beatles really did tell Charles Manson to murder Sharon Tate.

[lurch]

...I think using "politics" is way to specific and dodges the subject. The 1st Chrons easily can be seen as the exploration of motivation by guilt. the reason 'politics" is too specific is because the author Is ambigous in character assignment..that is..he leaves it up the reader to determine who and what is bad and good. His main characters traverse thru good and bad behavior. They are not specifically tied down to just one cardboard dimension. Its the gray he explores,,not so much the black and white.
I mean..9/11 happened. It may have been a political statement by the perps,,but it wasn't a blue state and or red state issue. It happened to all of us.

There is plenty of historical precedent in literature for the female lead to be representative of a " society". In a way, Hellen of Troy, Madame Boviay, heck even F Scotts Daisey have all been discussed in terms of being reps or metaphors for larger entities. I tread no unbroken ground with this thread. For those who it may be new for fantasy,,well,,consider MZ Bradley's " Mist of Avalon" for starters..or just about anything by U.Leguin(spl?).

I think Donaldson is great enough of an author to be considered with a " anything is possible" perspective. I'm letting you all know where I see analogys. If they work for ya, great!..If they don't, fine,,but I hope you can see to your own inspirations and maybe relate them here....MEL

[Edge]

All this, just to justify the fact that you ate a large hamburger?

You Americans are crazy.