Time Travel Paradox

[Roynish]

Now that SRD has opened up that problematic sci-fi/fantasy thing known as time/shifting/travel, how do you think he is going to resolve the essential paradox. Things in the future that then affect the past by intervention then have this alternative realities type of thing happening. The Butterfly Effect the recent movie explored those sort of chaos theory type ideas.
This has to handled very carefully I would argue. Dan Simmons pulled it off in the Hyperion books with grand space opera. But even he had to concede some points.
I remain intrigued at how SRD will handle this very tricky issue.

I am still unsure as to the full ramification of the time shifting aspect.

Also any other examples of time shifting in fantasy/sci-fi that you could mention that was handled well.
I remember Koontz had an interesting take on it in Lightning but I have not read that for years.
Please comment.

I realise this has been covered in depth a few times but hey maybe we could direct the discussion into other authors takes on this. If not let this one die.

[wayfriend]

Well, several things have already been established in Runes.

There seems to be a significance level attached to any temporal tampering. Some things seem to be okay, some not.

Linden seems to use as a guide some sort of measure of recorded history. Specifically, she references the Haruchai's memory of past events. If there is no conflict created with the Haruchai version of events, it seems to be okay to tinker with time travel.

There's so many holes in that I don't even know where to begin.

The second thing is that, the significance level is proportional to the damage to the Arch. A change of enough significance will destroy it; lesser ones harm it.

[Roynish]

i guess that is one way out of it, some form of "control" mechanism that
prevents paradox. The arch of time as mediator of time seems to make sense, I think.

[alanm]

but in WGW covenant was elevated to pure wild (white) magic which is the keystone of the arch. does this then mean (with time travel) that covenant has always been part of the arch.

my head hurts.

[Buckarama]

I see Linden doing things in the last 4 books that help TC in the first 6. He won't even know she is there.

"Remember I'm dead."

[finn]

The main issue I see is not the usual time paradox of going back in time and killing your own ancestors, but more about interference in the past by the very nature of Caesures.

Caesures are supposed to touch all time and from what we've seen in practice all places ( Stave guided the party back to Revelstone on their translation back to the 'present'). So at the moment of their creation the phenomena is potentially accessible in all times and places, this changes the potential past(s) from the future rather than the other way round.

So it could be possible to plan a change in an event in the past to engineer events in that relative future, the relative present, or our subjective future as per the usual time travel theme, but it is also possible for someone in the past with sufficient Lore or perception to 'discover' this previously non-existant phenomenon and use it.

Foul operates by suggestion, persuasion, manipulation etc. and this could be an avenue for him (or anyone else), allowing him to create new pasts and thus new futures. I suppose this could possibly be achieved, or perhaps assisted, by someone with access to the Arch of Time.

[wayfriend]

I have to disagree: I believe that SRD's premise is that changing the past to change the future is not possible. It seems to be that, going to the past and making small changes is okay, in that the Arch of Time can heal itself, correct the problem. If the changes are too great, then the Arch would be destroyed (death by paradox.) Somehow Linden intuits this, not sure how.

[finn]

Might have to agree to disagree here, if small changes are OK then it IS possible, its just a matter of scale. Also I think the possibilities here, especially in bringing characters past and present to the stage, is too big a well of temptation to pass by without a drink.

On another note, I guess I'm becoming a cynical old sod, but I don't necessarily accept anything, anyone says at face value; there are normally motives and agendas which colour the words. SRD 'says' he doesn't read the watch, he 'says' that this or that will or won't happen etc. But he's writing a book which he wants to have suspense and suprises in it, tipping the wink prematurely would undermine that.

Similarly, I think if I were an author, I'd keep an eye on the watch and/or similar discussion groups, there are some great ideas here and a lot of exploration of rules and consistencies, fleshing out of places and people and ideas and relationships that he has to remember, develop and make sure lines he has drawn are not crossed; they are on the watch, listed, categorised and all: an ideal tool for him. In fact we could be writing the next book for him on here!

[wayfriend]

I guess I hold steadfast to the conviction that the Final Chronicles will not be a Time Travel story. That is, it will not be about exploring the possibilities of Time Travel and doing a bunch of 'cool' things because they are possible. In Runes, so far, Time Travel has been a side issue. What's more important is demonstrating that the Law of Time has been broken. If anything, anyone taking advantage of that will be a bad guy. (E.g. the Demondim). I cannot state succinctly what I mean here; I hope that it comes across.

[finn]

Yeah, I think I get your drift, tho' it's always a nice twist to use the devices of the bad guys to do good things. I too, don't think it will be a time travel story, but I do think, like the other laws that have been broken that it is a conduit to do or bring things or people into the action from other times and places. The breaking of the other laws have been used to essentially do a cool thing or things, but not gratuitously and I think that that restraint will continue to apply.

I do think that the 'place' side of the caesures is potentially an important component. If Stave could arrange for the party to re-assemble (for want of a better expression) at Revelstone, the need for boats to traverse the seas, for example is removed as is the time to make a particular journey.

I'm not sure that the time travel thing has been a side issue, it was one of the events with the greatest impact in the book, bringing back the staff and the demondim and making the translation to Revelstone; not small potatoes! I agree the arch cannot be challenged with overwhelming, wholesale contradictions, but it will be challenged. SRD has used before the sort of "legal trickery" or testing laws and their boundaries without necessarily breaking them, of course he does break them too and perhaps he as much as anyone, wants to explore what the breaking of the arch would mean!

[wayfriend]

Linden seems to use as a guide some sort of measure of recorded history. Specifically, she references the Haruchai's memory of past events. If there is no conflict created with the Haruchai version of events, it seems to be okay to tinker with time travel.

There's so many holes in that I don't even know where to begin.

It seems that the author has chimed in on this topic in the Gradual Interview! (Emphasis is mine where it bears on this discussion.)

Tim Piper: Let's talk Law of Time.

I understand that you are the keeper of these particular rules. Neither am I taking you to task so much as filling the time until "Fatal Revenant" arrives. I am interested in your reply; as a fan of your written perspective on the GI as well as your published work.

If I recall correctly, a change in Time occurs when the history of the Land is altered. This is why Linden risks the present by bringing the Demondim forward. However, in most (all?) time travel tales the act of going back changes the past, if in that story Time can be changed. One could argue that in healing the Waynhim, Linden changes Time utterly.

Being a "student" of literary temporal exercise, I could counter by adding, Linden doesn't change time, she fulfills it. In other words, the Staff and the Waynhim were not hidden for thousands of years, but merely waited to be brought forward in time.

That said, what of Esmer bringing the Demondim? What of those poor blades of grass trampled by the Ranyhyn? Do they not count? I suppose what I'm trying to ask is, just because no one from the past remembers an event, did it not happen? Does the Law of Time offer dispensation for such minor affects?

These issues will be addressed in more depth in "Fatal Revenant"--and, presumably, in the rest of "The Last Chronicles." But let me try to make one conceptual point as it applies to "Runes". Linden does *not* risk "the present" by bringing the Demondim out of "the past" into her proper time. "The present" as it belongs to her is a fluid and undefined nexus of possibilities: every choice of hers which affects "the present" will modify and alter both "the present" and "the future" (as all actions do under any circumstances), but will not *violate* them. In a very necessary (to me)--albeit admittedly arbitrary--sense, "the present" (and by implication "the future") belong to her: she can do what she wants with them. "The past" is entirely another matter. Her place in "the present" is built on a vast edifice of actions and consequences, none of which can be altered without equally vast ramifications.

In other words, for the purposes of my story I look at time as a manifestation of mind (my mind, Linden's mind, that distinction isn't important at the moment). No matter what quantam mechanics says, we all *experience* time as having an unalterable past, an unknowable future, and a fluid present composed of many intersecting possibilities. Looking backward is an exercise in memory and understanding: looking forward is an exercise in hope and imagination (since we haven't yet done the things which will create our future).

So: when Esmer brings the Demondim out of the Land's deep past into "the past" where Linden encounters the Waynhim, he endangers the Arch of Time by threatening to introduce actions which are known (memory and understanding) not to have taken place. When Linden takes the Demondim out of "the past" into "the present," she preserves the Arch of Time by transforming a temporal peril into (in a sense) a purely physical one. As far as Linden's mind, or the Land's experience of time, is concerned, the Demondim are no more *wrong* in "the present" than they were back where they belonged (the Land's deep past).

Doubtless I'm creating more confusion rather than less. I guess my only point is that I understand time according to my own experience of it, rather than according to the implications of modern physics.

(10/21/2005)

Once again, we have been thwarted when the think technological. Time in the Land is "a manifestation of mind".

Again, I hate to say it, there're so many holes in that kind of theory. The first of which is that there is exactly one arbitrary 'present' - it is not relative to the observer in time. But, there it is, so we need to work with it.

[Usivius]

I don't think it is as 'simple' as that. SRD said, he was probably opening the door to more questions than answering them. I think we wil just have to wait for 'Revenant' and trust SRD's prowess...

[bossk]

I guess I hold steadfast to the conviction that the Final Chronicles will not be a Time Travel story. That is, it will not be about exploring the possibilities of Time Travel and doing a bunch of 'cool' things because they are possible. In Runes, so far, Time Travel has been a side issue. What's more important is demonstrating that the Law of Time has been broken. If anything, anyone taking advantage of that will be a bad guy. (E.g. the Demondim). I cannot state succinctly what I mean here; I hope that it comes across.

I hope you're right - I hope this one instance is the only time it happens, in fact. I think going back and getting the staff should be enough - if it turns into "Quantum Leap", I will be bummed.

Again, I state for the record that I trust SRD - I think he's going somewhere with this, and he's earned my forbearance of judgment several times over.

[finn]

Good find Wayfriend, I think what stands out to me in the quote is the tone SRD seems to take. In other sections of the interview he seemed a bit more open, I wonder if this is from later as there appears to be a bit more wariness in his answers and explanations, he seems intent on not giving anything away and the quote seems to say nothing more than "everything is negotiable".

In another thread I saw that SRD has stated that the power vested in Linden (refrerring to 2nd Chronicles) was not sufficient to break the Arch, that Coveneant alone had this potential, (this is what I remember, not a quote). In the 3rd Chronicles this seems to have changed, perhaps as the result of the caesures being a product of Joan's white Gold ring.

Clearly the power to use time now exists, and is being arrayed on the table along with the other tools and sources of power.

However I do think that the ability to traverse distances is yet to be explored and using a caesure as a transportation device appears possible and it seems, can be guided by Haruchai and Ranyhyn.

I wonder from where and why they have this ability?

[Xar]

A series of books by Kage Baker (the "Company" series, I think is the name) deals with time travel and more specifically with the issues of changing time. In it, the "present" is the 25th century or so, although at least the first four books are not set in that time period; the underlying idea is that in the 25th century Zeus Inc. invented immortality (in the form of cyborgs) and then invented time travel as an "accident" or by-product to test this immortality. What they found out when they tried to change the past (I guess the temptation is too great...) was that time had its own inertia: basically, you could not change anything that was recorded as having taken place. For example, you couldn't prevent Kennedy's murder, or Colombus's discovery, or even Julius Caesar's conquer of Gaul, because all these things were recorded (in written, video or other forms) and therefore time acted to preserve them. But, you could tinker as much as you wanted with what was NOT recorded. So, if records simply showed that Bob would win the lottery, you could buy the winning ticket, give it to Bob and have him give you all the money: recorded history would be preserved (Bob wins the lottery) but the context is completely different (you get the money).

The idea is probably a bit closer to SRD's concept of time travel and time paradoxes than Quantum Leap Perhaps with the exception that you could substitute "recorded history can't be changed" with "changing recorded history risks breaking the Arch of Time".

[Tulizar]

A series of books by Kage Baker (the "Company" series, I think is the name) deals with time travel and more specifically with the issues of changing time. In it, the "present" is the 25th century or so, although at least the first four books are not set in that time period; the underlying idea is that in the 25th century Zeus Inc. invented immortality (in the form of cyborgs) and then invented time travel as an "accident" or by-product to test this immortality. What they found out when they tried to change the past (I guess the temptation is too great...) was that time had its own inertia: basically, you could not change anything that was recorded as having taken place. For example, you couldn't prevent Kennedy's murder, or Colombus's discovery, or even Julius Caesar's conquer of Gaul, because all these things were recorded (in written, video or other forms) and therefore time acted to preserve them. But, you could tinker as much as you wanted with what was NOT recorded. So, if records simply showed that Bob would win the lottery, you could buy the winning ticket, give it to Bob and have him give you all the money: recorded history would be preserved (Bob wins the lottery) but the context is completely different (you get the money).

The idea is probably a bit closer to SRD's concept of time travel and time paradoxes than Quantum Leap Perhaps with the exception that you could substitute "recorded history can't be changed" with "changing recorded history risks breaking the Arch of Time".

That's a series I should add to my list. Sounds pretty good. I tend to agree with this idea.




When I first Runes I was a little disturbed by the time travel aspect. Most time travel scenarios I've read tend to revolve around an unstable plot that depends on the idea that by going back in time a person can alter something to change the future. It's lame.

Don't get me wrong. If the story is well written and time travel is more an integral aspect of the plot rather than a cheap device, then I can get into it (Gene Wolfe's Urth series comes to mind.) I guess I don't mind the time travel aspect in any story as long as it isn't used as a deux ex machina.

I've read time travel debates until my head hurts. Will travelling alter the future? Can the future traveller occupy the same space and time as his past form? Does he travel on another plane? If a traveller plays with his past he won't alter his future, otherwise he wouldn't be able to travel in time to alter the past. When the arguments start quoting quantum thories and numerous planes of time and space I usually bail out. It's not that I'm lazy or stupid (well not exceptionally lazy or stupid), it's just that I tend to get lost in the scientific explanations of things.

Of all the theories I've read, I tend to accept that you simply can't alter the future by going back in time. What's happend is done and it is too closely tied to the future to change. It just seems to make sense to me. I guess since the sci-fi stories that tend to use the time-travel-to-alter-history bit are so bad, that I'm willing to accept anything else.

I enjoyed Runes and am happy with SRD's use of time travel. I was a little put off at first, but so far it hasn't overshadowed the story or character development. He also seems to have established a set of rules for time travel which goes beyond the simple "altering the past alters the future." Here it seems that by altering a specific character's past, one could potentially affect the intangible future or, depending on the circumstances, could disrupt the arch of time--a tangible creation.

So far so good

[Roynish]

Bump this one, surely

[Buckarama]

Just think of it as if some one did travel back in time and change the future, the past is the past because he travel back in time and changed things. Clear'd right up for ya!

[callback]

If a tree falls in the forest and no one is there to hear, does it make a sound?

SRD seems to be taking that route on the potentially catastrophic changes time travel can make. It's ok as long as nobody notices.

The damage to the fabric of time appears to be done by the caesures themselves. Time travel is just a side affect (albeit with disastrous consequences if it is not used discreetly.)

I agree with those who think that time travel is not likely to be the focus of the novel. It seems like the ways that Linden can affect the present by going to the past are fairly limited. That said, I expect at least one and probably two more jaunts into the past. And I can't help but hope that we'll finally get to meet Berek, Damelon, or Loric.