"No, the Despiser is hidden from me."

Book 1 of the Last Chronicles of Thomas Covenant

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"No, the Despiser is hidden from me."

Post by High Lord Tolkien »

Hardly aware that she spoke aloud, she whispered, "Can you tell me where to find my son?"

Brusquely Esmer replied, "No, the Despiser is hidden from me."
Has this been discussed yet?
Is this one of those "in your face" type of tidbits that's just too obvious to comment on?
That Jeremiah is in fact the Despiser?

"Tell her I have her son" is not directed at Linden.

I don't know.
It's interesting.
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Post by Sorus »

I always assumed it meant that Jeremiah was with the Despiser, and therefore hidden.

Interesting. 8O

Maybe about time to reread.

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Post by Nerdanel »

I think that quote is just one of the several clues that Jeremiah is possessed by Lord Foul. I think that's the clear implication of the text, although it's not exactly obvious.

Other clues:
- Joan, who is possessed by Herem, is not hidden from Esmer
- The Ranyhyn at the Horserite pretty much say outright that Jeremiah is possessed (but not by whom)
- Lord Foul is known to be able to possess people
- Lord Foul says to Linden in no uncertain terms that he is able to command Jeremiah
- Jeremiah acts healthy and unlike himself when we and Linden see him in the end
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Post by Xar »

Nerdanel, sorry to disagree with you, but:
Nerdanel wrote:- Joan, who is possessed by Herem, is not hidden from Esmer
This doesn't really mean much... a Raver is not nearly as powerful as Foul, and what is more, a Raver is from the Land's world, whereas Foul is from outside. See also the Elohim, who claimed they could not act against Foul (likely because, being made of Earthpower, they had no power against an entity which is beyond Earthpower).
Nerdanel wrote:- The Ranyhyn at the Horserite pretty much say outright that Jeremiah is possessed (but not by whom)
Hmm, this I don't remember... I'll have to read it again.
Nerdanel wrote:Lord Foul is known to be able to possess people
When? How? The only instance I could think was the King, but he was possessed by a Raver...
Nerdanel wrote:- Lord Foul says to Linden in no uncertain terms that he is able to command Jeremiah
"Command" can have simply the implication of "he is in my power, if I say he must die my slaves will kill him". It may even mean "he's under a compulsion to serve me" without necessarily meaning "I'm possessing him".
Nerdanel wrote:- Jeremiah acts healthy and unlike himself when we and Linden see him in the end
I'd rather withhold judgment on this until we can get our eager hands on "Fatal Revenant".
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Post by I'm Murrin »

Xar wrote:
Nerdanel wrote:Lord Foul is known to be able to possess people
When? How? The only instance I could think was the King, but he was possessed by a Raver...
I believe Nerdanel is referring to Anele.
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Post by Xar »

Well, Anele is a rather special case... he opened himself so much that now cannot "refuse access" to whatever entity decides to use his body as a relay. I don't think you can consider Anele's case true possession - possession like a Raver's doesn't depend on the kind of ground the possessed creature walks on, at the very least, while if Anele were "possessed" by Foul the same way as he was in RotE, and he happened to walk or be brought on, say, rock, he would immediately shake off Foul's presence. I rather think of Anele as a relay of sort - he is "receptive" to your "frequence" only when properly "tuned", but is otherwise inaccessible.
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Post by wayfriend »

Lord Foul possessed Joan, when she was outside the Land, in the Second Chronicles, and probably in the Final Chronicles as well. (According to the GI, Ravers don't have that much power, so it can only be Foul.)

Foul can possess Anele, but only when the path is open, which seems to be related to the kind of ground Anele walks on.

In the Land, I'm sure Foul could possess someone, but since he has a bunch of Ravers, and better things to do ... heck, he probably considers the process distasteful.

On the main point: The Elohim were unable to address Foul in the Second Chronicles. It may even be true that much that he did was hidden from their direct perceptions (although they could discern some of his purpose through normal, deductive reasoning I suppose). It may be that Foul is closed to Esmer, their grandchild, as well.

However, from a story-mechanic point of view, if you introduce an all-powerful, time-travelling character, you then need to have a reason why he just doesn't straighten out all the world's issues in ten seconds, or else you don't have a story. I'm convinced that this is merely the case here: there has to be a reason why Esmer just doesn't take Linden to Jeremiah, at a point in time where he can be rescued, and so this is the one that the author came up with. And it's not illogical or arbitrary, as it follows the precedent of the Elohim.
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Post by Xar »

Well, I imagine this could have been one of the back doors SRD left open when writing the Second Chronicles; and given the fact that the Elohim are Earthpower personified, and Foul goes beyond Earthpower, the reason why they (and whatever descends from them, including the merewives and Esmer) cannot perceive the Despiser makes sense. It is akin to the lomillialor test of truth - after all, we are told in the FC that lomillialor and orcrest didn't reject Foul when they were given to him as gifts (while he maintained the charade of being Kevin's friend) because his power surpassed them, and also in the FC, it is stated that the test was true "unless the power of the tested creature surpassed that of the test giver". Since lomillialor and orcrest are expressions of Earthpower, it would make sense that it would work the same with the Elohim.
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Post by High Lord Tolkien »

But Esmer always knows how to find Linden.
Just because Jeremiah is not from the Land like Foul doesn't mean the Elohim or Esmer can't locate him.
Actually he should stick out like a sore thumb.

Specific question: Where is my son, (Jeremiah)?
Answer: the Despiser is hidden from me

Not "Jeremiah is hidden" or "the Despiser has hidden Jeremiah from me".
When does SRD not say what he means?

There's a blend there.
I can't see possesion being the block.
That means Despiser would have to be possesing Jeremiah 24/7.
To what end?

This sounds like a specific SRD clue to drive us crazy! :lol:
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Post by Nerdanel »

I was indeed referring to Anele and the Gradual Interview information about Lord Foul possessing everyone who was possessed in the real world.

I'll try to be more clear.

1. Jeremiah is possessed by someone (Horserite)
2. The list of known possessors: the Ravers, Lord Foul, Linden. Kastenessen and Covenant do something like that too.
3. Herem is not possessing Jeremiah (busy with Joan)
4. Linden is not possessing Jeremiah
5. Covenant is very weak as a possessor
6. If Jehannum (or in a lot more unlikely case Sheol or Kastenessen or John Q. Possessor) is possessing Jeremiah, they would need to be near Lord Foul at all times. This seems wasteful, since Ravers and such are valuable resources that can surely do something more useful than babysit Jeremiah. We know Lord Foul is capable of sacrificing maximum immediate evil for the sake of greater evil later. In a pinch he can put Jeremiah in old-fashioned chains and maybe have some minor underling use old-fashioned torture or do it himself on an idle moment.
7. Lord Foul as a stronger possessor than any of the Ravers is much better at possessing multiple people at once, even at a distance. The Ravers seem to be capable of handling more than one of only stupid creatures. Lord Foul can possess both Joan AND Roger in the "real world" and that's with them being in diferent towns from each other and beyond a power-inhibiting world-barrier.

So I think that Lord Foul, being a very powerful possessor, is permanently possessing Jeremiah while also occasionally possessing other people like Anele. I think "whispering a few words here and there" probably isn't so intensive an activity for him that it would prevent possessing Jeremiah, a son of a major enemy, just out of malice. Also I think Jeremiah plays a significant part in his plans so it can be sensible to practice with Jeremiah.

Fatal Revenant reading spoiler:
Spoiler
Something is definitely wrong with Jeremiah in the chapter we know about. Esmer and the ur-viles trying to stop him and failing (or pretending to)? This Jeremiah certainly has gotten a lot of power from somewhere and is noticeably more active than he used to be.
The natural question is why Foul didn't possess anyone in the First Chronicles. I think he in fact did, according to the Gradual Interview wide spectrum definition of possession. Mhoram heard Lord Foul mocking him in his prophetic dreams. This may be similar to Linden hearing Covenant's voice in her sleep and Linden accidentally ending up in Lord Foul's mind and sharing his two visions of the future, which is what I think happened in the "I am content" scene. The First Chronicles Foul would have conceivably liked to keep tabs on what Mhoram saw of the future, since that would affect the good guy war strategy, and used the opportunity for some additional psychological warfare. Meanwhile I think Foul despised others so much he would wear his own body in Ridjeck Thome and possessing Lords or Bloodguard wouldn't be any more a viable strategy for him than it was for the Ravers.
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Post by dlbpharmd »

What about the horserite makes you think Jeremiah is possessed? I can't recall anything about that.
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Post by Nerdanel »

Galloping in frenzy, they touched the ravaged memories of moksha Raver's possession, the killing horror of Jehannum's malice. And with that knowledge, they caused her to experience what was being done to her son.

To damaged Jeremiah who had no defense except blankness.
Granted, this is not exactly straight-forward, but I think it can be narrowed down. The Ranyhyn appear to be able to do some modification of the visions they send, such as playing out Elena's life with Elena and with Elena replaced with Linden, but they don't seem to be able to communicate something that is not copied from somewhere. (Incidentally, I once read about an autistic savant with that sort of drawing ability. Autistic Ranyhyn... what a thought!) The Ranyhyn and Linden both have significant experience with various horrible things ranging from childhood traumas to the nasty side of warfare to the effects of the Sunbane and other things.

Being possessed by Jehannum was the worst thing Linden ever experienced. It makes sense that Lord Foul would be well aware of the effectiveness of that kind of thing being a Dark Lord and all. Lord Foul in general seems to appreciate mental torture, which among other things has the benefit of not having to cure it magically at intervals when the victim is needed to stay alive. Now on the subject of mental tortures, if Jeremiah was experiencing something less than some degree of possession, I think the Ranyhyn would have shown Linden something more appropriate from the large selection.

I think the Ranyhyn with their abilities can conceivably know what is happening to Jeremiah, since even if they cannot see about Lord Foul they must be able to see something about how his actions influence others, or they would have nearly zero predictive power at wrong time periods. (Remember also that Mhoram was able to foresee various bad things that would happen because of Lord Foul.) I think Esmer could also have known about Jeremiah's condition, but Linden never asked about that. "The Despiser is closed to me." works well preventing further inquiry, even though it says less than it appears to.
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Post by finn »

When does SRD not say what he means?
Ooooh! I'd say he can often have a roundabout way of saying it and can send us off on tangents and false assumptions at will; that's why we are all hooked!
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Galloping in frenzy, they touched the ravaged memories of moksha Raver's possession, the killing horror of Jehannum's malice. And with that knowledge, they caused her to experience what was being done to her son.

To damaged Jeremiah who had no defense except blankness.
Blankness might be an adequate defence.
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Post by drew »

Wayfriend wrote:Lord Foul possessed Joan, when she was outside the Land, in the Second Chronicles, and probably in the Final Chronicles as well. (According to the GI, Ravers don't have that much power, so it can only be Foul.)
I dont think Foul Possed Joan in the real world.
I figured in the 2nd chrons, that Joan had been in the Land, before she came to TC.
While she was in the Land, Foul drove her mad.
Roger must have been there too, at some point before Runes, I'd imagine.

I figure Joan was in some transitional point at the begining, that's why she was so nuts, but also why Roger could contain her.
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Post by Nerdanel »

No way Joan's insanity was the natural sort. As you might remember, she wanted to drink Covenant's blood and when she got that blood would get lucid for a while. I don't think that has a medical name. Then there were supernatural things happening around her like how she got repeatedly free from her bonds to hit herself again.

Roger worked as a butcher and therefore had regular exposure to blood. I think this wasn't an accident. I think Lord Foul needed the power of blood to maintain his possession. I think Covenant feeding Joan with blood was the same kind of thing as feeding the Sunbane with blood. It provided temporary relief but only aggravated the underlying problem.
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Post by Xar »

I think you're making a wrong assumption here though... just because Joan's madness mirrors no apparent psychological condition (although it is reminiscent of vampirism), it doesn't automatically mean she was possessed. I would rather imagine that Foul could have drawn her into the Land - even just for the space of a moment - and "touched" her mind there, making her mad (or rather, instilling within her a specific madness). It's the same way that the fanatical cultists were enslaved - it could be akin to a twisted form of compulsion, but not outright possession. I really can't see Foul lowering himself to possess a human being - I can see him using Anele as a relay, I can see him forcing Joan and the cultists to serve him through a shadow of influence in the real world, causing compulsion, but I can't see him "lowering" himself to possess a human being. By the same token, the description of the Horserite doesn't mean that Jeremiah is possessed: he could have been tortured, he could have been psychologically scarred, he could have been made to see hideous hallucinations, but it does not refer to any sort of possession that I can think of. Blankness, in fact, elicits more of an idea of torture - to which Jeremiah can only answer by retreating further within himself. Not physical torture, perhaps, but torture nonetheless.
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Post by Plains of Ra »

Nerdanel wrote:Autistic Ranyhyn... what a thought!
Um...

No.
*neigh*
*winny*
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Post by Nerdanel »

The Gradual Interview has information about possession.
SRD wrote:In the Land, one being can only control or influence another through possession.
SRD wrote:I see "possession" ("entering") as operating along a continuum which ranges from "merely whispering nearly-inaudible suggestions" to "complete control." And on that continuum, the degree to which Lord Foul can enter a mind in the "real world" is severely limited to the low end. He couldn't do it all until the structures of Law which sustain the Land began to break down. And he still can't assume control: he can only whisper persuasively. (The Ravers can't do this at all to a mind in the "real world": only LF is that powerful. When Linden feels turiya in Joan's mind, Joan is already dead; already in the Land.)
That part about how Lord Foul can possess in the "real world" is completely pointless if he never does that. Moreover, from what I have gathered translating someone to the Land is a non-trivial thing to do. Most especially, Lord Foul would have needed someone disposable to perform the summoning so that when that someone was killed Joan would end up back in the "real world". (And if Joan and her white gold was in the Land, why not simplify the plans and treat her as the designated source of Arch-destruction instead of Covenant?)

By the way, I forgot to mention in this thread that reading the Book of Jeremiah has been a major component in making me think that Jeremiah is possessed. I think God in the Book of Jeremiah and thereabouts was a major inspiration for Lord Foul. They even use similar language.
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Post by finn »

he still can't assume control: he can only whisper persuasively
I don't really see that this can account for Joans or Jeremiahs condition which is far more severe in the real world than can be induced by Foul's very limited ability to control (as quoted from SRD).

Could he persuade Roger in such a manner, probably. Who else is relevant to the course of events, Sherriff Lytton maybe? Other than this there is no sign that Foul has possessed anyone in the real world; I'd imagine the reason he mentioned something apparently pointless was in response to a question about it.

As for the biblical Jeremiah, he was not possessed but was asked (albeit required) to preach the word of God. God appeared to be mightily cheesed off that his chosen peoples had turned away from him and worshipped false gods, not observed the sabbath and generally showed a poor attitude and lack of gratitude for his creation of them. As a consequence he was going to give them a very severe spanking using the non-chosen, prior to giving them a bit of a slapping around too.

Understandably perhaps, Jeremiah was not overly enthused by all this.

Lord Foul like Sauron, like many fictional bad guys has power and the greater the stature of the bad guy the greater his power. If he/she did not have that power people would probabaly tell them to "go stick it" when they arrogantly strut up and demand submission and obedience.

The benchmark for the sort of power required to be a very, very serious bad guy would surely be that displayed in the Old Testament, thus the phrase "biblical proportions". It is therefore no suprise that the vocabulary and its use would be similar.

Over-riding this tho' is the starting point that God is a perception of good, that is rightly outraged at bad behaviour and is going to powerfully rebuke the perpetrators. Whereas, Lord Foul is a perception of evil, who's motivation is malicious and who reigns down despite as a by product of his desire to break the Arch of Time and free himself regardless of the cost to the people of the Land.
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Post by Nerdanel »

I think you are forgetting about the Clave. Lord Foul got the people of the Land to believe that the Sunbane was there as a righteous punishment for their own sins. Of course the punishment in no way fit with the supposed crime, but that's a problem with God too. I could write about the jheherrin and the Christian Hell here.

I think the biggest difference between Lord Foul and the Old Testament God is that of whose propaganda we are hearing. I think Lord Foul does not think himself as evil but rather as a superior being that is justified in doing whatever he wants because he is so superior. (Sauron in Tolkien was motivated by a desire to make the world a better place a.k.a. as he wished it to be. Sauron didn't put much value on the environment, preferring hard values like industrial productivity, which is why the scenery got so bad under him.)

I think Lord Foul was so successful with Joan because she was so weak to begin with that it didn't take much to push her over the edge. The same goes for Roger. Also, Anele's madness works to render him especially vulnerable to possession. (Makes one wonder about where Jeremiah fits into this.) Roger also exhibited what looks like superhuman strength, a thing the Ravers are known for.
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