Playing God

Post by **Worm of Despite** » Sat Apr 26, 2003 8:35 pm

Is stem cell research no better than Frankenstein?

And if giving life is evil, what about abortion? Taking life? If one is pro-life, is it hypocritical for them to take birth control pills? Isn't that playing God?

And what about healing a person whom would be otherwise doomed to die? Is that playing God--OR is it a fact that a lot of people today wouldn't be here today, had others not "played God"?

Post by **Dag son of Dag** » Fri May 09, 2003 7:54 pm

As for healing someone who is doomed to die: If it is possible to heal him/her, then he/she isn`t doomed to die!

Stem cell research, isn`t that about taking cells from aborted fetuses/embryos to cure deseases in the brain, Alzheimers or something? I don`t find that evil, as long as we don`t produce embryos to get cells. It isn`t evil to help people. If it was, then it would be wrong to put on a bandage or comfort a child that has fallen from a tree or something.

Taking birth controll pills are just the same as not having sex..you make it impossible for a contraception to take place. You don`t kill anything..after all, millions of sperm cells (or what you call them) die all the time, and no one screams atrocity about that.

Post by **Lord Mhoram** » Fri May 09, 2003 8:17 pm

How do you define playing God, Lord Foul? I agree with you, but where do you draw the line?

Post by **Worm of Despite** » Sat May 10, 2003 6:45 pm

Post by **caamora** » Sun May 11, 2003 5:11 pm

How can science go too far if it discovers procedures that benefit human life? Let's look at Frankenstein. Understand that it was written as a horror story before anything similar was possible. It was written in a time where they still believed that bleeding people helped flush out any bad humors and leeches were the aspirin of the day. We can prolong life! What a wonderful thing to be able to do. The stem cell research is a wonderful thing, I think. We are able to recycle body parts. And why not? Even our own heart recycles our blood over and over again. The human heart is the most efficient recycling station known to man. If my own children were to die, I would donate what organs of theirs that I could in order to save the life of someone else's child.

Medicine is a wonderful thing. The unfortunate part of it is that some practitioners are not moral and ethical and are looking for the dollar!

Post by **fightingmyinstincts** » Sun May 11, 2003 8:44 pm

I don't think abortion is wrong unless it is done frivolously...as in "I could always use contraceptives but why, when I could get simple abortion!" But then, it's always bad to be born and not wanted, I think I would rather not be born...
But necessary abortions aren't wrong...why do people place so much more value on a clump of cells that might someday be a human being but right now could be an embryonic anything, than they do people that are already born and alive on their own? How is killing an abortion performing doctor less evil than performing an abortion?

Post by **Ryzel** » Mon May 12, 2003 5:16 pm

Living things have only one individual imperative: survival; and only one species imperative: procreation.

From this it would follow that it is natural for human beings to pursue medicine.

But the paradox is that if you increase the chance of "flawed" individuals to survive and procreate you will keep the flaws in the species because they will not die out as they would by "natural" selection.

Does this make it good to destroy flawed individuals? Most people think not.

The issue of abortion is linked not to survival, however, but to procreation.

The question is: is it the female prerogative to chose the father of her children or not? In some animal species it is, at least partially, in others it is not. Where do the humans stand on this?

Is it evil to deprive the woman of that choice? I think it is. Abortion in itself is not evil, it is a natural consequence of the fact that the woman wants to have that choice.

Post by **Bannor** » Tue May 13, 2003 2:34 am

I really have a lot to say on this, but I will just say that I am against abortion in almost every case; I am against cloning; and I believe very strongly in God. I know I'll be in the minority here, but it's how I feel.

Post by **Skyweir** » Tue May 13, 2003 4:01 pm

stem cell research is an interesting and controversial issue ..

embryonic stem cells are not derived from eggs fertilised in a woman's body .. they are taken from eggs fertilised in vitro .. as you know there are many eggs fertilised per donors that are unused and it is these that are given for scientific research.

I think that playing God is an interesting take on this issue. As you rightly point out .. isnt everyday that medical intervention is used in the lives of humans .. playing God to one degree or another?

I think we have always 'played god' .. and I dont think there is any evil in doing so .. To suggest there was evil in doing so would imply that being God was evil ..

whether you hold to the existence of god or not .. intelligence itself is playing god to some extent.

The real controversy arises when we deny life .. It would seem it is more preferable to play god by promoting life and survival than to deny life ..

So when spare fertilised eggs are disposed of .. this crosses a line that leaves the spiritualist in a quandery. What of the life essence of that embryo?

it may only be a discarded 'clump of cells' .. but it is .. in scientific reality a genetically coded human being .. a being in embryo. What of this discarded human entity?

And to the spiritualist .. what of this beings 'divine right' [read biological imperative] to life [survival] .. and to its unique purpose ..

The same is true of abortion .. naturally ..

To me personally .. I see there are very real circumstances where an abortion would be desirable .. and those circumstances would not be for the pursuit of convenience .. or as a means to avoid inconvenience

But rape, incest etc .. there are valid reasons where choice isnt an issue in these circumstances .. and where this is true .. an abortion may be the only tolerable alternative to carrying a child of defilement through to term and delivering it .. and then the trauma and anxiety of giving up that child for adoption.

But for those who use abortion as a means of contraception .. use this tool simply to avoid accepting responsibility for their actions .. Responsible behaviour is ideally taken before conception

.. and where that has failed .. there are still responsible alternatives still available to them .. that do not include discarding a 'clump of cells genetically coded human being'.

Disposing of flawed humans is not playing god .. its playing Hitler .. euthenasia was a tool he utilised for disposing of the physically and mentally flawed.

I think it is natural for humans to pursue medicine .. and i believe that it accords to some extent with this concept of playing god .. and i dont see that as being a negative thing.

i think we should play god .. in the promotion of life .. and not at the expense of life ..

afterall as ryzel pointed out .. survival is a [biological] imperative we share ..

Post by **danlo** » Tue May 13, 2003 4:11 pm

I can see alot of positives in stem-cell research. (Christopher Reeve's case & cause as 1 xample) God believes in me, and that makes me

. Procreation? Ah... they'r just 2 many humans and alot of the ones I've met lately (in RL) r too stoopid 4 their own good!

As far as the other issues being discussed.....RUN AWAY!!!! RUN AWAY!!!!

Post by **Worm of Despite** » Tue May 13, 2003 4:31 pm

And there was much rejoicing.

Post by **Skyweir** » Tue May 13, 2003 4:52 pm

huh??

oh well

rejoicing it is then

Post by **caamora** » Tue May 13, 2003 8:14 pm

It is a tricky subject, to be sure.

I also strongly believe in God. I also believe that God gave us freedom of choice. IMHO, abortion is wrong. However, I cannot make that decision for someone else who does not believe as I do.

I think that drawing the line would be if science actually grew and harvested these cells. In other words, to grow them just to kill them. That is too much like "The Matrix." However, these fertilized eggs are considered the property of the people whose bodies they came from, aren't they? So if the person or persons decide to dispose of these cells, (abortion?) isn't it better that they be used to save someone else's life? If the possibility exists, better that than just throwing them away so that they are useless. It is certainly not the best of circumstances, but better than just throwing them out like rubbish.

I think that I am verifying what Sky wrote. It is a quandry for those who believe in God. So, I deal with it by trying to focus on the positive aspects - of the lives that can be saved or made better. After all, the souls of those cells are in a better place than we are!

And there was much rejoicing.

Here, here, Lord Foul! Yea!

Post by **danlo** » Tue May 13, 2003 10:27 pm

Well thank God(s), the Creator, or thank no 1...caamora diverted this subject...I took the 'much rejoicing' thing way 2 personally thinking LF was making a snide comment 2 me and infering I was being a little brainwashed Pollyanna 4 saying 'God believes in me'...prehaps I was being funny in an esoteric way...or mayb I wasn't...but if u still have a prob w/me LF, come on: let's throw down homeboy!

(or mayb ur sense of humor is just as twisted as mine and u were being funny, as well, but I didn't take it that way...) (or mayb my post just got in the way and I'm xtremely pissed over nothing, God willing!

) (or was he just happy I was running away?

)

Post by **Worm of Despite** » Wed May 14, 2003 9:11 pm

*Looks danlo straight in the eye* And there was MUCH rejoicing!! OOO!! Got ya good with that one! Ha, try and make a comeback offa THAT!! *gives the WEST SIDE sign* That's a Ruff Ryder's role!! What, what then?! What, what!!?

Sounds like danlo needs to be a bit more cultured [is trying to egg you on]. You said, "RUN AWAY, RUN AWAY!" That was from Monty Python--the beast of AAaaaarghh! "And there was much rejoicing", is my little riff off of your Python line! My line was from where they ate the minstrels, "And there was much rejoicing."

Post by **Infelice** » Wed May 14, 2003 9:48 pm

There is so much that I would like to say about this subject, however I will keep my thoughts as brief and concise as possible.

We are lucky enough to be living in a society that allows us to make free choices. I believe that every individual has the right to do whatever they feel is the right choice for them, within the legal and moral framework of the society we live in.

I'm inclined to agree with Sky's views on abortion - when pregnancy is a result of force or defilement and not choice, then the female shouldn't have to live with the reminder of that horror for the rest of her life.

With regards to stem cell research, are we playing God? I'm not a religious person - I believe in universal love and good will. I support SCR for the basic fact that its ultimate aim is for the benefit of others.

As Caamora said, the fertilised eggs used for SCR are the property of the people whose bodies they came from. There is an ever increasing number of people choosing to become organ donors for the ultimate benefit to others. If those individuals possessing fertilised eggs decide to donate these cells to SCR, then I see this as another act of ultimate goodwill that will benefit others.

I do not believe that the embryos used for this research possess souls yet- they haven't developed the cognitive processes to make choices and decisions and therefore develop consciousness or a soul.

This is just my belief and the way I choose to deal with this tricky topic.

Now, for crying out loud, will you two guys just kiss and make up.

Make love, not war! Figuratively, not literally of course.

Post by **caamora** » Wed May 14, 2003 10:43 pm

I knew exactly what you were talking about, Danlo and Lord Foul. I laughed out loud when I saw the Monty Python quotes!

Post by **danlo** » Wed May 14, 2003 11:47 pm

Come back and fight like a man! I'll bite your kneecaps off! I knew mine was from MP, just 4got urs...ur cynism was getting 2 me and I was in the mood 2 rip any1s head off...oh wise guy eh? AHH put up your dukes, come on, put em up!!

Post by **Worm of Despite** » Thu May 15, 2003 12:22 am

*starts talking with his long-drawn, high-pitched Curly voice, with a hint of Mike Tyson*

You want a fight, danlo?!?!

*scrunches up face at monitor* You're talkin' to Mr. Corruption--Mr. "Oh No, It's Lord Foul" the O'Despiser! *crosses arms* But, you know--if you want cynicism . . . well, I'll give ya more than ya can handle from this 18 year old mind! In fact, I got me a poem I'm about to lay down on ya, that is so sad and so, so cynical--well, you'll see! Oh, you'll see! *Rubs hands together evily*

Post by **danlo** » Thu May 15, 2003 12:29 am

I spent many years of my long life creating, obsesesing and finally conquering my own personal Lord Foul (Apex the invisible)...u r nothing 2 me pipsqueak! I fart in ur general direction! But I am very interested in ur poem!

Kevin's Watch

Kevin's Watch

Playing God

Playing God

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