Raising children with religion

[fightingmyinstincts]

All these religion related discussions have made me think of this: What do you think about raising children in a certain religion? Is this indoctrination? I don't think most young kids can make religious decisions for themselves but just giving them a default one might be a bad idea too...what do you think?

[Worm of Despite]

Everything you are and have ever been comes from you parents, from your family’s household, the country in which you grew up, your school, and the friends you associate yourself with. Your religious beliefs, your goals and dreams, your accent, your political views, your train of thought . . .basically, EVERYTHING. Had you been moved to India as a baby and given a new set of parents, you’d be a COMPLETELY different person. You’d probably beat your Hare Krishna alter ego up!

So, of COURSE it is indoctrination. All people who believe in God were indoctrinated by their parents, and their parents before, and their parents, and their parents, and so on and so on and so on. Think back to what you currently believe in, and you'll see that your belief is in either direct correlation or direct opposition with what those who raised you told you to believe in. Either way, it all comes back to them; hell--of course it does, duh!! You wouldn't even BE here had they not copulated--period.

That's what most numbskulls can't understand--and what most Americans can't understand about the Middle-East . . .they were raised just as us, and it's completely natural, then, for them to be in total incongruity with us, in total disagreement.

Basically, it's all the same thing as telling them there's a Santa--they'll believe it unconditionally.

In fact, kids are so open to anything their parents suggest, you could raise them up to worship the Great Discombobulated Monkee by taking off all their clothes around 7:00 and walking in a circle while doing the funky chicken dance.

I've got one question: how is our indoctrination of children any less underhanded than the methods to get certain German youths in the 40s to go "Hitler Uber Alles!" I mean, for Chrissake, it's not at all like we give our kids a choice in what they want to believe in. Come on!!!! If you're born a white American, you're pretty much 100% certain to be a Christian. Especially in the south! Christians and Republicans walk hand-in-hand, there, and, at my school, you're ridiculed openly if you're an atheist--that is, if you have the balls to come out and say you are. "God bless America", yes indeed.

[I'm Murrin]

It all depends on the parents - for example, my parents aren't really religious. I was christened, and we celebrate christmas, but that's about it - and now I'm an atheist. People with less religious upbringing seem to be more capable of deciding for themselves about things like that, whereas if your parents are very religious and bring you up that way, you are more likely to follow that religion when you are older.

[[Syl]]

Both my wife and I come from a religious background and both are no longer a part of it. I would like to let my son decide for himself, keeping my input to a minimum. Well, not input, I suppose. I'll raise him on some ideas I have, but I don't want to force him onto or away from any particular line of thought.

That being said, if I was going to raise my child in any religion, it would be the Mormon faith. Great community, family ethic. It was how I was raised, and I feel like it could have been a lot worse.

[duchess of malfi]

This is something that must be decided by each individual family or couple. Of course, it is a form of indoctrination, how could it not be? But on the other hand, as Syl pointed out, a church/synagogue/mosque/what have you can also perform an important role as an emotional and/or social support system, that to some people that I know can be just as (or more so) as important as the religion followed therein.
We are blessed in most Western nations that we can make this choice both for ourselves and for our children. Parents in some parts of the world cannot make these choices.
At this moment, my family and I are unchurched. There was some unpleasantness (not for us individually, but for the congregation as a whole) involving shall we say -- indiscretions by the pastor -- at the church we had belonged to for several years, and we ended up leaving. My husband has decided that this summer we will begin church hunting...we'll see how it goes...

[fightingmyinstincts]

LF: I think the books we read have a lot to do with our makeup too, and that can't be included in the country we grew up in set 'cos some of us read books from other places, undoubtedly. But yeah you're right.

What I want to know: Is it possible to be fairly-to-somewhat devoutly religious parents and raise your children unreligious until they get old enough to choose? Would any somewhat devout parents do this? Little kids can't resist indoctrination, but they can't very well be trusted to pick their own religion out of a catalog either, I mean, little kids are significantly different psychologically than adults and anyway they'd just pick the one with the most holidays.
And if you are very religious but don't want to raise your child as automatically your religion, you can't just eschew religious practices for a decade or two while your child gets old enough to make decisions for his/herself. I don't think.

More to LF: I totally agree with you. It is hard for nonchristian high school students in the south. I live in Arkansas. And I'm a druid; that title thing's not really a joke. Well not entirely
But it's also hard for the really really christian students too. They get an equally hard time for not coming to school with a hangover and puking in the hall like everyone else. It's hard for foreigners, exchange students, handicappd, mentally disabled and everyone that's not "normal".
My table at school consists of: One Thai buddhist, one druid, one Vietnamese Catholic, a few devout Christians who have been variously homeschooled or went to schools in their church, a male cheerleader, and some people who bring their lunch. All people who are different. All significanly smarter than average too.
I get called a witch regularly. I think it's pretty funny though.

[Worm of Despite]

Yeah, one of the reasons I quit football was that I suddenly found myself turning into one of those assholes that made fun of "alternative" kids. Hey, not using football as a scapegoat, but the people you hang around with mold you somewhat, especially after 3 years of being teammates with them, and seeing through their tinted glasses. Just another proof-point that an outside-of-home environment and its political climate is critical to your psychological development!

I mean, at an early age--especially the one-digit numbers--teach your kid two damn things, and two things alone: universal morals (no kill, no steal, etc.) and then, more importantly, CRITICAL THINKING. Teach them to step the line between a drone and a THINKER--to THINK for THEMSELVES. By the time they're in the two-digits, age-wise, they'll then be able to decided what THEY want to believe in. Simple as that!

If you DON'T do that, your kid becomes a carbon copy of the "this is right--everything else goes to hell" kind of ignorance. 90% of the time, that's the #1 visible symptom of sucky, easy-way-out parenting.

And then, there is the 10% . . .

The 10% are the lucky ones, who disagree with their parents . . . but that's not good either, cause they become estranged to whatever religion their parents tried to enforce upon them. In fact, the person becomes so estranged they tend to hate their family for what they did, tend to hate all religion, tend to be a more cruel person, making the world a colder place. I should know some of that, somewhat--from first-hand experience, friends!!

[Fist and Faith]

Those without serious religious convictions have to try to look at this from the other side. If you were absolutely convinced that you knew the Truth of existence, the way (and for some, the ONLY way) to the best possible afterlife, wouldn't you tell your kids about it? Indoctrination, yes, but indoctrination into the very meaning of our lives. It's crazy to expect someone with such beliefs to not try to help their children be saved.

My wife and I are raising our kids without mention of religion at all. But when they say, "Oh God!", I tell them to say, "Oh gosh!" instead. Some day, they might feel the need for religion in their lives. But if they grew up ridiculing religion, or even just taking it lightly, they might later have a tough time taking it as seriously as they might wish, and feel lost. But if they treat it with respect now, I think they'll have more options about how to view it later. If that makes sense.

fightingmyinstincts,
I often recommend Ayn Rand's books, and I thank you for bringing up another opportunity. From Atlas Shrugged:

Somewhere, he thought, there was this boy's mother, who had trembled with protective concern over his groping steps, while teaching him to walk, who had measured his baby formulas with a jeweler's caution, who had obeyed with a zealot's fervor the latest words of science on his diet and hygiene, protecting his unhardened body from germs - then had sent him to be turned into a tortured neurotic by the men who taught him that he had no mind and must never attempt to think. Had she fed him tainted refuse, he thought, had she mixed poison into his food, it would have been more kind and less fatal.

He thought of all the living species that train their young in the art of survival, the cats who teach their kittens to hunt, the birds who spend such strident effort on teaching their fledglings to fly - yet man, whose tool of survival is the mind, does not merely fail to teach a child to think, but devotes the child's education to the purpose of destroying his brain, of convincing him that thought is futile and evil, before he has started to think.

(And just in passing, I must again say that there are no universal morals.)

[Worm of Despite]

Those without serious religious convictions have to try to look at this from the other side. If you were absolutely convinced that you knew the Truth of existence, the way (and for some, the ONLY way) to the best possible afterlife, wouldn't you tell your kids about it? Indoctrination, yes, but indoctrination into the very meaning of our lives. It's crazy to expect someone with such beliefs to not try to help their children be saved.

Excellent point. I understand that, but that still doesn’t make their methods right. It makes their motives clear, is all--however misguided. Does it justify it? No! Because it’s still an outdated mode for raising children. Come on--who knows anything about the afterlife, for chrissake? That's what's crazy, I tell ya. In the end, they just sound like version 2.0-s of their parents, and it's sad, sad, and sad.

To anybody: do you know the truth of existence? If so, where'd you learn it from, is all I'm asking! With all due respect, your answer and subsequent reasons (or lack thereof) will probably make me scoff!

It can't be knowledge--and it's not. It's part of the cycle of "my parents always told me", and their parents, and their parents. That kind of reasoning is major Studio 54 Euro-trash, and it needs a decent kicking in its complacent arse. Anyway, for me, there is no “the” afterlife--a definitive version of it. Everybody will have a different afterlife, according to however they've got it set up in mind. If you're pessimistic or sadistic, I doubt you'll have constructed a good one. Blah, I'm speculating, myself, just like a Christian, but, anyway, I just feel very strongly we are at the beginning of our existence, and death is just the next stage, another step. "So play the game "Existence" to the end . . .of the beginning."

Heck--Faith, I have been on the other side. At one point, as a child, I was my grandfather in thought and mind. No need to tell you about him, or what he believes. Let's just say he agrees with Archie Bunker when he watches the show. All I know is, I'd rather be forced to cut off my right arm with a cheese grater than re-enter that state of mind.

(And just in passing, I must again say that there are no universal morals.)

Clarify on that, unless you already did, cause I missed the first post, Fist.

Oh yeah, forgot to say "please". Please!

[Fist and Faith]

I was referring to the "Pitch's idea : what is evil??" thread. A big chunck of this huge thread (one of the ten biggest) has been a debate between me and Skyweir about where there are any universal morals. If the thread looks a little too big to bother, pm me, and I'll pm you a summary of my points.

[Guest]

Maybe later, Fist--when I'm not using the school computer!!

[Fist and Faith]

It's 109 posts, so have snacks and drinks handy!:)

[Earthblood]

LF - how did you become so cynical?

The truth of my existence (as I see it TODAY) is that I must interact with other humans. How I choose to do so is the legacy I leave in this world.

I have a 4 year old son and we go to church every Sunday. I am not, however, what I would consider a "religious" person. I try to maintain a spirtual life - that is, I believe there is something out there that is a greater "power" than I.

I do not try to make my son conform for the sake of conformity - I want him to think for himself and use his brain. I do, however, expect him to treat other people with respect and dignity, as I try (not always sucessfully) to do.

I do not know what the afterlife will bring. I have hope that when I do move on to the next stage, there will be a better place to exist in than the world as we know it now...

[Worm of Despite]

LF - how did you become so cynical?

Nothing cynical about my last post, as far as I can see! It was pretty innocent--just stating my views, same as you! I guess everybody who doesn't believe in the "powers of faith" is automatically a cynic or something. I guess, Earth, I'm the way I am for the same reason you're the way you are, religion-wise and all that.

I believe there is something out there that is a greater "power" than I.

So do I, but I call it the universe! Reading the facts about it has explained all of the "Whys" for me. Then again, I never cared about "whys" really. Maybe that's why I never cared for religion--cause its answers weren't what I was looking for. I wasn't looking for anything, and I had no questions cause I already knew the obvious life-truths. They were all around me: in nature, in the animals, in outer space--not in some old book. Don't get me wrong! The message Jesus gave of love and mercy and understanding and all is great, and he's a wonderful philosopher and teacher, but that's where it ends for me.

Everything else is a melting pot of pure legend and who-knows-from-what-from-how-many-sources "history". It's like when you play that game where one guy starts a rumor, whispers it to another guy, and so on, and so on--and then see how drastically its changed by the time it gets to the last person! Same case with The Bible--ah, in a sense, of course!

As for the afterlife: I’ve decided I don’t care anymore--doesn’t matter if I go to spend a mind-numbing eternity in a highly idealized scenario (70-odd virgins included) or a black nothingness. All conceptions ever made of the afterlife are Utopian pipedreams made up during life, anyway. Streets of gold and a personal mansion for everybody and all that crap . . . Anyway, just as life happened upon me, so will the afterlife, I guess. So, whatever happens happens, just like life happened and we couldn't control that happening. For example, speaking hypothetically of a no-control scenario: if I "happen" to die in my sleep tonight and it just so "happens" there is nothing but non-existence after life, then I'll be the last to know, won't I?

One last thing! I found this quote hilarious:

"I read about an Eskimo hunter who asked the local missionary priest, 'If I did not know about God and sin, would I go to hell?' 'No,' said the priest, 'not if you did not know.' 'Then why,' asked the Eskimo earnestly, 'did you tell me?' " -- Annie Dillard, Pilgrim at Tinker Creek, 1974

[Skyweir]

(And just in passing, I must again say that there are no universal morals

and i must again assert there are ;P

LF you call that which is greater than you 'the Universe' .. ok others assign that which is greater than they .. 'god' or 'God' .. but at least you can appreciate another's pov that there is somthing greater than themselves ..

you say you do not need any old book to teach you the things of life .. well more power to you ..

the truth is all around us .. in the earth and in the universe .. i would consider you considerably enlightened that you can elicit truth from the environment ..

truth can be elicited in a wide range of sources imo .. in many books .. in many teachings .. in quiet moments understanding can be acquired ..

i have not heard of the afterlifes you describe .. it would seem these afterlifes are the achievements of the materialist ideal ..

to me .. there will always be learning and growth .. as that is the purpose of existence .. imho ..

i envision an afterlife .. where i will exist as i do now .. but without the trappings of mortality .. an existence that will reunite me with others and a continuation of a journey that begun before mortal birth ..

mmm .. all very interesting ..

and raising children with religion does not deprive them of their autonomy .. children become adults .. and at some point .. the inevitable occurs .. they ulitamtely decide for themselves ..

and at every step along way .. children are discerning observers of their environments ..

they also possess free will .. as do we all ..

raising children with religion or the teachings of Christ, Mohamed or even just an ethical framework provides them with a system of values .. that are positive, beneficial .. and enduring ..

[[Syl]]

I'd like to cut and paste the more relevant pieces of this article, but I think that would be a little presumptuous of me. Please, read and enjoy.

www.kwanumzen.com/primarypoint/v06n2-19 ... gpole.html

[Earthblood]

I once filled in for a middle school Sunday school class. We were discussing some lesson regarding the teachings of Christ - I don't remember the specifics. On of the young men looks me straight in the eye & asks "What if the whole Bible is just a bunch of made up stories and none of this stuff actually happened?". Not being a religious scholar or even a teacher and not even being a parent at the time, I was a little taken aback by the question, but as I thought about it for a minute, I realised that this was really a good question. My answer to him was this - Lets say it is all just a bunch of stories that somerone dreamed up - are the morals and ideas presented (for the most part) such bad guidelines to try to live your life by? Even if you don't believe in God or Jesus Christ , The ideals presented in Judaiism & Christianity are at their root based on trying to live with your fellow human beings in a respectful fashion. And IMO, you can't ask for anything more out of a person than to treat others with respect. You don't have to love me, but you should show respect.

LF - I mean no disrespect to you in saying you seem cynical - I just sounds from your general tone that you seem rather cynical about life as we know it...

[[Syl]]

or the quote I was originally looking for...

There was once a great warrior in China. He was honored by all. One day he approached
a Zen master who was sitting on the ground, and asked: " What is Heaven and Hell ? "

The Zen master looked up and said: " You look too stupid to understand, go away."

" Do you know who I am ? " the outraged warrior replied. The Zen master continued to
insult the warrior until the warrior drew his sword in attack. Just as he was about to
strike, the Zen master looked calmly up and said: " That, my friend, is hell..."

The warrior, realizing the Zen master's enlightenment, fell on his knees and, with
reverence, bowed down gratefully.

The Zen master then said: "And that, my friend, is heaven."

I would tend to agree with Master Foul on this subject.

[Worm of Despite]

LF - I mean no disrespect to you in saying you seem cynical - I just sounds from your general tone that you seem rather cynical about life as we know it...

Who's this we? We getting Gollum on me?! I'm only cynical about life as you know it! I've got no problem with my own! No disrespect meant in any of what I just said and am going to say, but to me, you seem rather cynical about, at least, well, me--and that's because the life as you know it is religion, which is not the case with me. I'll admit, I am cynical about religion, but that‘s where it ends these days. Maybe that's why I appear to be down on everything to many--since, to many, religion is everything.

But I’m not down on everything--and I don’t care if people believe me or not, cause I only need to tell myself that and it usually works out, heh. I love life, love whatever will come after, if there is an after. Anyway, the more I learn about religion and its so-called “vices“ (which I can attain and learn about all on my own, thank you), the less I wish it were ever created. Anyway, I guess I’m trying to say I, in a nutshell, don’t believe in Buddha, or Vishnu, or Alla, or anybody--I only believe in me, and that’s all anybody ever really needs to do, spiritually--believe in themselves. That, and believing in their wife and kids--if they have them, that is. Those are the gods of my idolatry. If people would open their eyes they'd see a life without them would be pointless, religion included into the equation or not . . .

Heh, I hope you were only agreeing with me on the quote I posted, Sylv, unless you agree with me on everything?! Wow, that'd be a first for anybody on the Watch with me!

[Worm of Despite]

This is in response to Sky, since I don't want to jumble up my musings.

LF you call that which is greater than you 'the Universe' .. ok others assign that which is greater than they .. 'god' or 'God' .. but at least you can appreciate another's pov that there is somthing greater than themselves ..

Made me think of something! Where do you stand, religion-wise, Sky? Just innocently wondering--I don't remember you stating. See, I'm only asking, cause you're the first one I've heard so far compare the known universe with the unknown God. Or maybe I'm reading the quote wrong!

Don't get me wrong! I don't appreciate that people believe in 'creation science'. It's like believing the stork theory over real childbirth, which is my current sig. I think it's completely absurd, and I see no "truth" in it--only contradictions. For instance, if you believe the earth to be 10,000 years old, ya got serious, serious problems.

"The church lives on the fact that modern research about Jesus is not known amongst the public." - Hans Konzelmann

And yes, I don't have any evidence that God doesn't exist, but nobody on the other side has evidence that he does--and they never will. I guess it's just going to be a standstill, till one side lightens up. And, ya know--I’m so strongly suspect of his existence that I find it all a waste of time, anyway. Like trying to tell people the world is round. I mean, really, why would God go making billions of galaxies that each have billions of stars and then rejoice in something like us burning goat flesh, ala Old Testament?

the truth is all around us .. in the earth and in the universe .. i would consider you considerably enlightened that you can elicit truth from the environment ..

They call it science. And as for my mention of animals. See--let me explain! There are other living beings on this planet we call "animals" that are the exact same as us, and we came from the same place they did, in the long run of things. BUT, we happen to have minds that can craft stuff like religion. So, basically, we made us a book that told us we're superior and have souls and are made in God's image--and then we actually believe we're better! Can you believe that--us animals thinking we're better than our fellow animals! It's animal racism!

There are good quotes, too!

"We must question the story logic of having an all-knowing all-powerful God, who creates faulty Humans, and then blames them for his own mistakes." - Gene Roddenberry

"What profit has not that fable of Christ brought us!" - Pope Leo X

"You will be pleased to know that almost five and a half million people are watching you being so thick!" - Anne Robinson - on the BBC quiz show 'The Weakest Link' - to the last four contestants after they had scored zero (and a series low cumulative total).