Illearth Stone(s)

[Xar]

I've been thinking a bit about events in the FC and SC, and I suddenly noticed something I hadn't thought of before, regarding the Illearth Stone.

Of course, the Stone was one of the pivotal "players" in the FC; it empowered first Drool and then Foul, and shards of the Stone empowered the Ravers, as well as being instrumental in corrupting the Bloodguard. At the end of TPTP, as far as we know, there had been a maximum of four pieces of the Stone - the main Stone (in Foul's hands), and the three shards in the hands of the Giant-Ravers; of these, the main Stone was destroyed during the climax of TPTP, one of the shards was presumably destroyed by the Forestal of Garroting Deep, another exploded when Mhoram killed Satansfist, and the third was brought back to Ridjeck Thome by the Bloodguard in hopes they could fight Foul, and presumably was taken back by Foul.

But then, in the SC, another fragment of the Illearth Stone surfaces, in the hands of the Woodhelvenin who attempt to sacrifice Covenant for it, after the Clave's ultimatum. Covenant suspects it was a piece of one of the Giant-Ravers' shards, shed and remained dormant for hundreds, of thousands of years before being found again.

From this, incidentally, we can surmise that each shard of the Illearth Stone had power in and of itself, and was not merely a channel for the power of the main Stone. It is quite possible, of course, that each shard has only a limited amount of power by itself, and that it could draw additional power through its connection with the main Stone. We could make an analogy by saying that each shard could evoke about 5% of the power of the main Stone by itself, but could go beyond that limitation by drawing on the power of the main Stone, as a channel (such as when the Giant-Raver in Coercri attempted to use it to bend the Sea to his will). This, of course, is no longer possible with the main Stone destroyed, and it is also likely that the shard of the SC was much weaker than the shards of the Giant-Ravers, given that it was a piece of one.

But anyway, the thought I had was - SRD said time and time again that he's an efficient writer, and doesn't add anything in his stories that is not necessary for the plot. And, when he wrote the SC, he was also laying the ground for the FC. Within the context of the SC, the presence or absence of the shard of Illearth Stone was largely meaningless: things would have followed that path even if that had been simple orcrest, for example. So why did SRD insert a shard of the Illearth Stone in the SC? Especially considering that it had no impact whatsoever on everything that happened afterwards?

Now, here's another idea... as I said above, although each shard has power by itself, it is likely capable of drawing on even more power through its connection to the main Stone. And, as we know, the main Stone was destroyed in TPTP. But - through the caesures, the Demondim now are accessing the Illearth Stone's power, effectively creating a link for the Illearth Stone's power to reach from the past to the present. If a piece of one of the shards of the Giant-Ravers broke off, isn't it possible that more did? And if that is true, isn't it possible for these pieces to draw additional power through the link to the Illearth Stone created by the Demondim?

Let us remember that, although one of the three Giant-Raver shards was taken by Foul (and presumably either destroyed or re-joined to the Stone), and another was presumably destroyed by the Forestal (who very likely destroyed it utterly), Satansfist's shard exploded: could pieces of that shard (perhaps only the biggest ones) still retain a vestige of power and of link to the main Stone?

[KAY1]

In answer to the bit about the Forestal, he did indeed destroy the stone. Mhoram asks what became of the stone after Caeroill Wildwood killed the Giant and he said 'It was a great evil - I have destrpyed it'.

I would say it is reasonable to assume other shards are littered about the Land. I don't remember the exact quotes from Runes, but I am sure it was discussed whether the Demondim could have gone back and taken the Illearth Stone before Drool recovered it and it was decided not, because then it would alter events. But if they had found one of those shards lost then this would be ok but that one shard wouldnt have enough power. I'm sure there was then further speculation about whether or not the shard could be used to link to the Stone in a previous time before it was destroyed, wothout actually having to remove it.

[Xar]

Well, as I recall it, in Runes it was speculated in the end that the Demondim were not making use of the physical Stone, but were channeling its power from the past into the future, through the caesure. In any case, whether they did it through a fragment of the Stone (derived in turn from one of the shards of the Giant-Ravers) or simply by drawing on the Stone's power as Foul used to do is still unknown.

If they did draw on it through a fragment's power, I think it is safe to say that, as long as there is a way for the fragment to link to the Stone (a way that is provided by the caesure), the fragment should be able to draw on the Stone's power as described above.

It is interesting to notice how the Illearth Stone has been in all the Chronicles, to a larger or smaller extent, whereas all the other unnamed banes buried in the earth under Mount Thunder - banes spoken of by Foul himself, among other things - none has been recovered. Why is the Illearth Stone so fundamentally important? Is it simply the most powerful of these banes? The only one it was known about? The only one of which the location was known?

[Xar]

Another interesting tidbit I just noticed while re-reading TWL, in the chapter "Soothtell", after the Riders attempt to coerce Covenant into giving up his ring and he summons wild magic to heal and free himself.

Gibbon shouted orders Covenant could not hear, threw an arc of emerald across the court, then disappeared.

Now, we know that the power of the Banefire had a crimson hue, so Gibbon was not using the Banefire there. On the other hand, the Illearth Stone was emerald green, and so was its malevolent power.
Santonin na-Mhoram-in recovered a flake of the Stone from Stonemight Woodhelven and brought it back to Revelstone; that could have been the source of the arc of emerald, except that two paragraphs later, we find out that the flake was still in Santonin's possession, just before Covenant destroyed it. But apparently, the above sentence implies that there was no doubt Gibbon was the one who summoned that emerald power. So I see two possibilities there:

1) the "orders that Covenant could not hear" were orders for Santonin to cover Gibbon's escape, and the arc of emerald, though seemingly coming from Gibbon, was actually Santonin's action;

or,

2) Gibbon had another way to access to the Illearth Stone beyond the flake Santonin had.

Let's remember that, from all we heard in TIW and TPTP, while Foul was able to wield the power of the Stone even without direct contact with it, the Ravers needed that direct contact to control its power; given that the Stone had only recently been brought back to samadhi Sheol, it's doubtful that he had had the time or power to establish a mastery similar to that Foul had once, not to mention the fact that a flake of the Stone is undoubtly less powerful than the whole Stone, especially since the Stone itself was destroyed.

So, in short, I fear there is a possibility that Gibbon had another Stone flake (perhaps taken from the original Stonemight). He could have hidden it somewhere anytime between TWL and WGW, so there could be more fragments of the Illearth Stone still around by the Last Chronicles, beyond the various incarnations of the Stone described in the first post.

[native]

There is the small matter of the caesure through which the Demondin were channelling their power having being erased. Can they really switch to using any other caesure to channel the stone from the past, like some mystical version of a roving wireless network?

It seems at least possible that the Haruchai have it wrong and they have brought the stone with them. Which would mean that it will have to be returned to the past - pre-Drool Rockworm. Which would mean another jaunt for Linden and co.

[Buckarama]

Or was the entire stone distroyed in the last battle?

I don't remember, I'll look again tonight while I'm home.

[Nerdanel]

Interesting detail, Xar. I had never noticed that before. I think it could be used as evidence for the Ravers = Demondim theory. (If Gibbon had an additional shard, why didn't he use it later?)

I think a Raver probably could use the Illearth Stone from across the room but not from across the continent. This necessitated the Giant-Ravers carrying shards around. Also, I think caesures were probably either difficult to acquire in the pre-Runes era when they were invisible, or else they needed many more than three Demondim to keep them under control. I would think, both. (My view is that the Demondim channeled the Illearth Stone against Kevin's armies.)

-------

Linden erased the caesure she had created, not the caesure the Demondim used to access the Illearth Stone. If that particular caesure would be shut down, I guess it would be technically possible to create a new one to fulfill the same purpose, but it's anyone's guess how hard that would be for the Demondim. Trial and error or inputting known coordinates to a magical formula?

By the way, from that scene we know that it's possible for a caesure to travel through another caesure... I wonder if that's going to have any plot significance.

[Xar]

Interesting detail, Xar. I had never noticed that before. I think it could be used as evidence for the Ravers = Demondim theory. (If Gibbon had an additional shard, why didn't he use it later?)

Good question. However, let's remember that, by the time Covenant returned to the Clave, the purpose of the Raver was already accomplished: Covenant had been infected for the last time, the wild magic was out of control, and everything was progressing towards his confrontation with Foul. It is possible that the Raver chose, or was ordered, not to offer too much resistance, since the Clave had accomplished its purpose. After all, the Raver had no reason to believe Covenant would be able to wield a power capable of rending him; he probably figured that, even if Gibbon was killed, he could slip out of him and enter someone else. By the time Honninscrave trapped him and Nom rent him, he probably didn't even have time to think, due to his struggle, much less call upon the Illearth Stone, even if he had had a fragment.

Let's also remember that the coercion towards Covenant at the end of the soothtell was the Raver's idea, not Foul's: the Raver wanted wild magic for himself. Between Covenant's escape of Revelstone and his return in WGW, Foul had plenty of opportunity to learn of his Raver's betrayal, and reclaim any fragment of the Illearth Stone the Raver still possessed, at the very least. Losing the Stone would have been quite a punishment for the Raver, at a point in which Foul likely did not want to punish him more because Gibbon was still useful.

I think a Raver probably could use the Illearth Stone from across the room but not from across the continent. This necessitated the Giant-Ravers carrying shards around.

And yet, from all we know about the Giant-Ravers, they always wielded the Stone in their hands when using it. Now, if you could use the Stone even without direct contact, would you hold it high in your hand, from where it could be dislodged if someone were able to hit it with a good blow, or would you rather keep it somewhere on you - perhaps in a concealed pocket? The Ravers may be gleeful, but they're not stupid. It is possible that, since the flakes are not the Stone itself, they require direct contact to work at all, whereas the Stone allowed a certain distance.

[dlbpharmd]

1) the "orders that Covenant could not hear" were orders for Santonin to cover Gibbon's escape, and the arc of emerald, though seemingly coming from Gibbon, was actually Santonin's action;

This, I believe, is what is happening in "Soothtell."

TWL, chapter 15, "Because you can see":

[Santonin has just arrived at Revelstone with Linden, Sunder and Hollian]

Santonin and the Raver [Gibbon] spoke together in alien, empty words. Santonin produced the Stonemight and handed it to the Raver. Emerald reflected in the Raver's eyes; an eloquent smile shaped the flesh of his lips. He closed his fist on the green chip, so that it plumed lush ferns of force.

Nowhere does it say that Gibbon ever returned the Stonemight to Santonin, until the section that Xar referenced above. I believe that Santonin was meant to sacrifice himself to allow for the Clave to gather, and for Gibbon to escape.

[High Lord Tolkien]

It is interesting to notice how the Illearth Stone has been in all the Chronicles, to a larger or smaller extent, whereas all the other unnamed banes buried in the earth under Mount Thunder - banes spoken of by Foul himself, among other things - none has been recovered. Why is the Illearth Stone so fundamentally important? Is it simply the most powerful of these banes? The only one it was known about? The only one of which the location was known?

I follow the "Land is internal" idea.
So that to me, the Illearth Stone represents leprosy.
That's why it comes to the forefront where other's don't.

[native]

Linden erased the caesure she had created, not the caesure the Demondim used to access the Illearth Stone.

Good point. But that caesure connected the Stone to the Demondin at the time period where Linden first met them. They then passed through the second caesure to come to the present and I would have thought if that one closed off it would break the link with the first caesure. I suppose that might not be the case though.

One other thing I don't understand is how the Demondin could travel between two points in the past before the caesures were even formed. I thought they only appeared when Joan started hitting her head. Yes I know they link every point in history but if they manifested throughout time like that surely we would have seen them in the first and second chronicles. Which leads me back to the notion that Sandgorgons' Doom was a caesure.

[native]

Funnily enough I just read the answer in the GI to the question of why no caesures have been observed in the previous chronicles

Spoiler

The contradiction you've pointed out will be addressed in some detail in "Fatal Revenant"--and in as many of the subsequent books as necessary. For now I'll just say that each caesure, terrible as it is, represents a miniscule and temporary rupture in the broad structure of time. If you aren't in the right place at the right time, you'll never see one--but that doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

[Dagonet]

Regarding Santonin, Gibbon, and the "arc of emerald," I always assumed Gibbon was tossing back the fragment to Santonin.

It is interesting to notice how the Illearth Stone has been in all the Chronicles, to a larger or smaller extent, whereas all the other unnamed banes buried in the earth under Mount Thunder - banes spoken of by Foul himself, among other things - none has been recovered. Why is the Illearth Stone so fundamentally important? Is it simply the most powerful of these banes? The only one it was known about? The only one of which the location was known?

Perhaps it's the bane most suited to Foul's nature. For a being of pure Order, it's going to be hard to find a better power-focus than the perfectly regular crystalline lattice of a giant emerald (except for a giant diamond, of course, but white was already taken. . .)

Cheers,

Dagonet

[Brinnor]

Anele says that the Caesures have only been present in the land for five score years (I think)

Nevertheless, The ur-viles used one to escape Lord Foul's extermination, and Anele himself was brought into the future through one. The quest itself travels back to 200 years after the Sunbane, long before the caesures "appeared" in the Land.
I think it's said that the caesures spanned all possible times at once. Ooh, the paradox. Something created recently, but simultaneously spanning all time, past and future. It's a wonder the arch of time hasn't broken .... but yet I'm sure SRD has watched enough Dr. Who to have a firm grasp of Time Travel theory!
Methink some events in the First two chronicles, and perhaps even the era of the Old Lords will be explained by things getting spirited away by a caesure.... (hmm, thinks hard to try and remember anyone or anything that vanished mysteriously in the 1st two chronicles..)

Onto the demondim. From what I remember since I read this stuff yesterday (less than I'd like), Linden perceives that the power seems to come from all of the demondim, and is too great to have been from one shard.
The theory was that the Demondim had created (or borrowed?!) a ceasure of their own to channel the Illearth stone's power through. Linden definitely closed the caesure she made, and the demondim were wielding the illearth's might in the past, before Linden even made her Fall.

Which gives us another race "adept at time" as it were. We already know that the Ranyhyn and the Elohim (read Esmer here) are not particularly bound by the Laws of time. The potential for total chaos grows with every chapter!

... I really can't wait until next year . Or 2013 for that matter

[MrKABC]

I don't believe there are any more fragments of the Illearth Stone lurking around - Gibbon na-Mhoram surely would have used it to defend himself in the Hall of Gifts, and Linden most definitely would have sensed it if it was on him or remained in Revelstone after the fall of the Clave.

The "arc of emerald" never made sense to me, simply because I couldn't have imagined a Raver giving up a piece of the Stone to a mere Rider for any reason. I agree with the above explanation that the "arc" must have been Gibbon tossing the Stone fragment to Santonin, knowing full well that it would be inadequate against the white gold.

I also have wondered why no more banes have appeared in the stories - especially since many references to "hidden banes and powers" are made whenever the subject of Mount Thunder comes up. The line at the end of WGW referring to "two Ravers cowering among the banes" (paraphrasing) implies that the Ravers know where the banes are. Why not use them?

It will be interesting to see the winner in a Staff of Law vs. Illearth Stone contest, that's for sure.

Another question is this: The New Lords claimed to only know about the Illearth Stone in their lore - High Lord Mhoram is chagrined about Foul being made more powerful in his age than in the Old Lords'... That implies to me that the Illearth Stone had not been discovered/used against the Old Lords, therefore, how do the Demondim know about it?

[Variol Farseer]

Well, Drool Rockworm found the Illearth Stone, and he wasn't much of a traveller, so it must have been buried in Mount Thunder. Since that's where the Demondim did their breeding, they could very well have known about it . . . and since they were a good deal wiser than Cavewights, they probably chose to leave it severely alone. The Despiser was probably the only being in the Arch of Time that could use the Stone without being corrupted by it, since he himself was Corruption.

I imagine, too, that the scheme of infiltrating Kevin's Council and winning a Lordship appealed to Foul's warped sense of humour. He always likes to use his enemies' strength against them instead of expending his own, not only for economy's sake, but because it gives him more reasons to laugh at them. (We're seeing a huge amount of this in Runes.) The Illearth Stone was not the sort of thing even Foul could smuggle into Revelstone in his pocket. So, even if he knew about the Stone and its uses, he had to choose one plan or the other . . . and he chose the one that would lead Kevin to despair and Desecration.

[Blackhawk]

since were talking about Runes the thought of the Demondim going back and taking the stone before Drool got it would change events in history..however if they went back in time and left a guardian that could channel the power to a time when it was needed they would have no need to take the stone..they could use it from where it was, safely without altering time or events. either that or the Demondims ability to phase in and out had been altered to be able to time shift also so they could get a supply of power from the stone go forward use it and return to charge up. i havent read Fatal Revenant yet so maybe it will tell more about it in there. there was piece in the Illearth war about the uses of earthblood, it said if the Illearth stone was commanded to destroy itself, the evil of the stone could be unleashed on the land without restraint. if anyone could do it the Demondim could find a way to channel that uncontained might.

and as far as Santonin and the Illearth Flake goes i dont remember him getting the stone back either but that could have been details left out of the book..or even left on the cutting room floor. the Illearth stone was pretty big and Even covenant Destroying it with enough force to split Fouls Creche could have sent a shower of flakes high enough into the atmosphere to drop them anywhere and in any direction.

hey ...im only 2 years late on this post

[Ur Dead]

Well this does open up another question or two.

If a ceasure is a wandering vortex, how did the Deamondin anchor their ceasure to one or more spots? One end would have to stay put where the Illearth Stone was and the other tapped end would have to be stationary where the Deamondin were camped near Revelstone or when they first attack 3500 years previous.

[Blackhawk]

I've been thinking a bit about events in the FC and SC, and I suddenly noticed something I hadn't thought of before, regarding the Illearth Stone.

Of course, the Stone was one of the pivotal "players" in the FC; it empowered first Drool and then Foul, and shards of the Stone empowered the Ravers, as well as being instrumental in corrupting the Bloodguard. At the end of TPTP, as far as we know, there had been a maximum of four pieces of the Stone - the main Stone (in Foul's hands), and the three shards in the hands of the Giant-Ravers; of these, the main Stone was destroyed during the climax of TPTP, one of the shards was presumably destroyed by the Forestal of Garroting Deep, another exploded when Mhoram killed Satansfist, and the third was brought back to Ridjeck Thome by the Bloodguard in hopes they could fight Foul, and presumably was taken back by Foul.

But then, in the SC, another fragment of the Illearth Stone surfaces, in the hands of the Woodhelvenin who attempt to sacrifice Covenant for it, after the Clave's ultimatum. Covenant suspects it was a piece of one of the Giant-Ravers' shards, shed and remained dormant for hundreds, of thousands of years before being found again.

From this, incidentally, we can surmise that each shard of the Illearth Stone had power in and of itself, and was not merely a channel for the power of the main Stone. It is quite possible, of course, that each shard has only a limited amount of power by itself, and that it could draw additional power through its connection with the main Stone. We could make an analogy by saying that each shard could evoke about 5% of the power of the main Stone by itself, but could go beyond that limitation by drawing on the power of the main Stone, as a channel (such as when the Giant-Raver in Coercri attempted to use it to bend the Sea to his will). This, of course, is no longer possible with the main Stone destroyed, and it is also likely that the shard of the SC was much weaker than the shards of the Giant-Ravers, given that it was a piece of one.

But anyway, the thought I had was - SRD said time and time again that he's an efficient writer, and doesn't add anything in his stories that is not necessary for the plot. And, when he wrote the SC, he was also laying the ground for the FC. Within the context of the SC, the presence or absence of the shard of Illearth Stone was largely meaningless: things would have followed that path even if that had been simple orcrest, for example. So why did SRD insert a shard of the Illearth Stone in the SC? Especially considering that it had no impact whatsoever on everything that happened afterwards?

Now, here's another idea... as I said above, although each shard has power by itself, it is likely capable of drawing on even more power through its connection to the main Stone. And, as we know, the main Stone was destroyed in TPTP. But - through the caesures, the Demondim now are accessing the Illearth Stone's power, effectively creating a link for the Illearth Stone's power to reach from the past to the present. If a piece of one of the shards of the Giant-Ravers broke off, isn't it possible that more did? And if that is true, isn't it possible for these pieces to draw additional power through the link to the Illearth Stone created by the Demondim?

Let us remember that, although one of the three Giant-Raver shards was taken by Foul (and presumably either destroyed or re-joined to the Stone), and another was presumably destroyed by the Forestal (who very likely destroyed it utterly), Satansfist's shard exploded: could pieces of that shard (perhaps only the biggest ones) still retain a vestige of power and of link to the main Stone?

i may have already replied to this.... if no other sources remain the destruction of the main illearth stone and Destroying Fouls Creche could have launched fragments of the stone for any distance in any direction. there might be few more out there...and each stone was probably limited by its size and only able to contain so much might before exploding like satansfists stone did when he knew he was going to die. like the lords staffs they were only able to contain so much might..when mhoram came into his true power it said his staff was bucking and blazing hardly able to contain the might flowing through it... but the staff of law would have containted it with no problem as would a larger flake of the stone i imagine.

[High Lord Tolkien]

I think the use of the Illearth Stone in the Wounded Land was used for more to compare and contrast the different powers in play during the 2nd series and just a reference from the previous series but not laying any groundwork for the 3rd.

It showed that, using the fragment, the people of Stonemight were free from having to use the lore of the Clave to survive the Sunbane.
But that it was still a corrupting force.

Gibbon had no use for the Stone because he had access to the much more powerful Banefire.

When TC held the fragment in his hand and destroyed it with WM it showed us just how powerful TC was becoming along with reminding us all about the love he felt for Foamfollower.

Also , whatever happened to Kinslaughter's fragment that the 3 Bloodguard attempted to bring back the the Lords?
They returned to Revelstone maimed and corrupted but didn't possess the fragment.
So unless Foul sent it out into the Land before the Creche was destroyed there's a good chance it's in the Ocean.
Hey, maybe the Merewives found it!