Arrangement & Production

[lucimay]

i've actually thought of a topic we haven't really jammed on yet!

we could discuss rock production and arrangement by decades (cause i think that would broaden the discussion) like...

1970's MONster arrangers like Gentle Giant...The Power and the Glory...the vocal gymnastics or the rock arrangers of THE EIGHTIES (matrixman).etc...like that

and it would also not be exclusive to period so we could talk about jazz and classical arranging as well...(matrixman)

or discuss arranging by genre...pop, soul, funk, etc etc. (marvin gaye, Trouble Man Soundtrack)

whaddaya think? got an opinion?

[Cail]

I actually started a thread similar to this a while back, but I'm more than happy to turn it into this one....

Lemme get another beer, and I'll tell 'ya what I think.

Judas Priest's Turbo is an incredibly well produced album. It's far from their beat, but it's really done well, and it literally jumps out of the speakers to this day.

Mutt Lange did an amazing job with Def Leppard's Pyromania and Hysteria albums. There isn't a bad note on either album, and they both stand up very well to this day.

But overall, I think you have to go a long way to find a better produced and arranged band than The Cars. Love 'em or hate 'em, their music (especially Heartbeat City) just sounds amazing. I was downstairs shooting pool tonight and "Magic" came on. Think what you will about the song, but it came out in 1984, and the recording sounds like it was produced yesterday.

[lucimay]

I actually started a thread similar to this a while back, but I'm more than happy to turn it into this one....

whoopsie! heh. did i wanna go lookin for it? NO.

Lemme get another beer, and I'll tell 'ya what I think.

ugh. yeast sh*t. blech.
pour me a shot of JC 1800 and i'll ponder your thoughts...


Judas Priest's Turbo is an incredibly well produced album. It's far from their beat, but it's really done well, and it literally jumps out of the speakers to this day.

never got into 'em so i can't comment.

Mutt Lange did an amazing job with Def Leppard's Pyromania and Hysteria albums. There isn't a bad note on either album, and they both stand up very well to this day.

am more familiar with Pyromania than Hysteria but, once again, it just didn't have that "full grown man" kick that say earlier bands (Zeppelin) or later bands (say Black Crows) did...or even contemporaries like Soundgarden. and i lean toward either a rawer (less produced) or more industrial kind of production (wall o sound). so DL just didn't grab me. i trust your assessment, tho, since you like 'em.

But overall, I think you have to go a long way to find a better produced and arranged band than The Cars. Love 'em or hate 'em, their music (especially Heartbeat City) just sounds amazing. I was downstairs shooting pool tonight and "Magic" came on. Think what you will about the song, but it came out in 1984, and the recording sounds like it was produced yesterday.

always liked 'em, always will. the ben orr tunes are the ones i like the best. that was a VERY crispy sound! clean-like. does that make sense?

[Cail]

Makes perfect sense.

I didn't mention Zeppelin, 'cause for me, that's a given.

I don't care for a lot (Hell, all) of the grunge stuff. To me, that wasn't well produced or arranged. In fact, I saw it as the antithesis of good writing, performing, producing, and arranging. But that's what it was meant to be.

As much as most people hate it, the 80s hair metal was incredibly well produced. I still listen to a lot of that stuff, and it literally jumps out at you and lets you hear every instrument, wheras the grunge stuff is muddled (intentionally).

Note: I do not include 3rd and 4th wave crap like Warrant, The Bulletboys, and Steelheart in the 80s stuff I like and defend.

[lucimay]

I didn't mention Zeppelin, 'cause for me, that's a given.

of course

I don't care for a lot (Hell, all) of the grunge stuff. To me, that wasn't well produced or arranged. In fact, I saw it as the antithesis of good writing, performing, producing, and arranging. But that's what it was meant to be.

i think Soundgarden is an exception but i generally agree

As much as most people hate it, the 80s hair metal was incredibly well produced. I still listen to a lot of that stuff, and it literally jumps out at you and lets you hear every instrument, wheras the grunge stuff is muddled (intentionally).

80's bands...digital effects processing...created a generic genre, don't you think?
ger says the fm synthesizers used in the 80's are to later synthesizers and samplers as video tape is to celluloid and people were using digital distortion rather than tube distortion. tube distortion contains harmonic responses whereas digital DOESN'T. (ok...he's feeding this to me as i type!! )
i asked him to help me articulate WHY that music sounded like it did cause i KNEW he'd know!!


Note: I do not include 3rd and 4th wave crap like Warrant, The Bulletboys, and Steelheart in the 80s stuff I like and defend.

that's because you have good ears.

[Cail]

Didn't care for Suondgarden, I'd say Alice in Chains was the exception, but that's just me.

There was a definate signature to the synths in the '80s. The Korg/Oberhiem/Yamaha DX-1 sound really dates that stuff, just like the Moog/Mellotron/Hammond B-3 sound dates the '70s stuff.

Now oddly enough, Alex Lifeson from Rush jumped on the digital/solid state bandwagon real early, and that's pretty much the point in which I stopped listening to Rush. There's a coldness to the sound that I just don't care for. Tube amps and analog equipment (including recording) have a fatter, lusher, warmer sound to me.

But nearly everyone went digital anyway because it's less clunky and more reliable. My pedalboard isn't much bigger than a computer keyboard, but it'll do just about everything I need it to do. It's archaic in digital terms, but it's light years ahead of stuff like the old tape-delay Echoplex.

Anyway, most of the stuff I listen to is done on tube amps, but nearly everything else is digital.

[Lord Mhoram]

For Your Pleasure (1972) by Roxy Music is the best-produced album of all time.

Brian Eno + Bryan Ferry = Greatness.

[Cail]

Don't like the music, but yeah, Roxy Music was very well produced.

[Lord Mhoram]

Yep, especially when Eno was a member (which wasn't for very long).

[lucimay]

the only Roxy Music i own is Avalon. but i love it.

groan if you need to but the best produced rock/pop/whatever kind of music you call it in MY book has got to be Steely Dan.

from Aja on up to present particularly, but even in the early 70's Becker and Fagen were light years beyond anything else i can think of.

and you're listening to finished product when you're listening to a Dan song...no jam band. oh sure...they jam out ideas during writing but everything is charted when they go into the studio, horns, backup vocals.
and speaking of backup vocals...as a singer i HAVE to say that if i could have EVER sung backup for anyone...i would have DIED to sing with that band. BEST USE OF GIRL BACKUP SINGER EVER on every single album they ever produced!
and if you doubt me...see the Two Against Nature live dvd.

[Cail]

I'm groaning. I loathe Steely Dan.

But you're right, they are well produced and arranged.

[lucimay]

I'm groaning. I loathe Steely Dan.

But you're right, they are well produced and arranged.

see...i KNEW that was YOU groaning in the back of the room there!!


but you're obviously musician enough to appreciate good work, even if it doesn't appeal to you on other levels. i appreciate THAT.

i just wish i could listen to geddy lee singing long enough to try and hear what you and sorus and esmer and scores of others hear in Rush.
some of the lyrics the three of you have posted were great.

do you like Gentle Giant or The Strawbs? Tull?
there's another arranger that blows my socks off, Ian Anderson.

Songs from the Wood, a brilliantly produced piece of work!

[Cail]

Not familiar with The Strawbs or much Gentle Giant (but I like what little I've heard of GG).

Classic Tull bores me to tears for the most part, with some notable exceptions. I actually thought they made some relatively interesting music during the '80s, especially Crest of a Knave, which is more rock than prog.

[lucimay]

Not familiar with The Strawbs or much Gentle Giant (but I like what little I've heard of GG).

Classic Tull bores me to tears for the most part, with some notable exceptions. I actually thought they made some relatively interesting music during the '80s, especially Crest of a Knave, which is more rock than prog.

oh YEAH!!! Crest of a Knave!!! Farm on the Freeway!! Steel Monkey!

yeah. *bobs head excitedly* Martin Barre solos. phew. guy blows me away.

two suggestions:

The Strawbs - Hero and Heroine
Gentle Giant - The Power and the Glory

for arrangements, production, and musicianship


and speaking of great arrangers and production...Peter Gabriel, Genesis AND his solo work!!

[[Syl]]

Didn't care for Suondgarden, I'd say Alice in Chains was the exception, but that's just me.

Nope. Not just you. Soundgarden always was a bit... commercial. I mean, spoon man? C'mon. That's about as genuine as SG gets (and continues to this day with Audioslave). Don't get me wrong; I like a few of their songs and have nothing against most of either band's stuff.

AiC always was the exception. They were about the only grunge band to blend the spirit of the genre with any level of craftsmanship. It was what made Layne Staley and Jerry Cantrell work so well together Don't believe me? listen to the Mad Season albums with Staley. Soulful work, but nowhere near the quality of AiC. Or listen to Jerry Cantrell's solo albums, the 2nd where Staley's absence is sorely felt. tight and clean, but, ultimately, empty. If the only AiC you've ever heard is on the radio, you're missing out. Their Sap and Jar o' Flies EPs are absolutely amazing.

Nirvana's best arranged (it is a 2-sided album, however) and produced album was In Utero. Not surprisingly, most diehard fans put it at the bottom of their list.

Pearl Jam & STP... you'll have to ask somebody that's into them. I did like Vs, though. I might have to get back to you on Pearl Jam.

One other exception. Toadies (think you'd like them, Luce. They're a grown man equivalent of Blind Melon, imo) Rubberneck is a great album. The opening piece really sets their style. Each song flows into the other. Todd Rundgren's unique vocals are distinct on every track, and it does not come at the expense of the instruments. Sadly, their follow-up album, Heaven Above Stars Below, while having some catchy tracks feels way too rushed, like they were trying to cash in on the dying grunge scene.

The Smashing Pumpkins deserves a mention, since they're sometimes lumped into grunge. Despite timed tracks like "Rat in a Cage" I never really associated them with it, though. If they were, though, just about any of their albums would qualify. They had a two disc thing with a sunrise/sunset motif that I thought was particularly well-done, though the name escapes me. Mhoram?

And the best thing to come out of grunge? Tool. Ok, maybe Opiate's not to everyone's liking, since it is very rough around the edges, but every album after that is a masterpiece (contradictory, i know). There's not a single song on the albums that you won't take home something new by putting on a good pair of earphones (or cranking up a high end system).

[Cail]

Agree 100% about AiC. Staley's death was such a waste, I'd love to see what they'd be doing now.

I'd say the best thing to come out of grunge was the Foos. They're a bona fide rock band, and I think they've got one of the best drummers in the business in Taylor Hawkins.

Now Tool I don't get. Granted, I haven't heard a lot of their stuff, but what I've heard all sounds the same to me, including the new song they're playing on the radio now. As musicians I think they're super-talented, but I'm not hearing a whole lot of diversity in their style.

[lucimay]

One other exception. Toadies (think you'd like them, Luce. They're a grown man equivalent of Blind Melon, imo) Rubberneck is a great album. The opening piece really sets their style. Each song flows into the other. Todd Rundgren's unique vocals are distinct on every track, and it does not come at the expense of the instruments.

i think you meant Todd Lewis, right?

had to go look 'em up imMEDiately at the mention of TR's name because i thought i knew everything he'd been even peripherally involved with and never heard of Toadies. couldn't find any reference to him as producer or vocal tracks or anything so i'm assuming you just typed rundgren when you meant to type lewis.

i am, in fact, a Toddhead. (case you couldn't tell by now! heh)

[[Syl]]

Cail. The new song (only heard once) does sound very similar to the style of their last album (which, other than a few tracks, has probably been my least favorite), but I think if you sat down and listened to Aenima you'd have a different impression, definately if you listened to all their albums. Granted, Tool is not a band that likes to vary their style much. Develop and fine tune, yes, but vary... not exactly. For instance, you're not going to find a pop ballad on one track, country on another, etc. However, there is a lot of song to song variation in rythm, technique, and so forth

Luci. Yeah. Not the first time I've made that mistake, either, I think. Not sure why I do that.

[Lord Mhoram]

Syl,

Mellon Collie & the Infinite Sadness. Brilliant. Good call.

[Cail]

Tool doing country....

Now that'd be cool.

I'll give 'em another listen.