The sociopath thread.

[aliantha]

A few weeks ago, I wrote a post for my blog about a sort-of-relationship I got involved in, not long after my divorce. Turned out the guy was either a narcissist or antisocial -- like, *clinically* narcissistic or antisocial. I'm still sorting through the damage.

Anyhow, I ran across the following article this week (via a link from -- wait for it -- Facebook!), and thought I would post it here.

Not sure where I'd like for the thread to go, but I can't be the only person who's ever dealt with a sociopath. And the depression thread seemed helpful to folks who've been there. So...

The article:
thoughtcatalog.com/shahida-arabi/2016/06/20-diversion-tactics-highly-manipulative-narcissists-sociopaths-and-psychopaths-use-to-silence-you/

And my blog post:
www.hearth-myth.com/2016/06/on-followin ... dvice.html

[Sorus]

That's an interesting article. Got me thinking. And writing and deleting stuff here.

[Linna Heartbooger]

I haven't gotten past the first 4 or 5 things on the list of 20, but... RE that first tactic in the list, "gaslighting"...
Narcissists would specialize in controlling their own image, their own PR, so the counter described might be unusually hard to deploy.
One might unexpectedly find it more difficult than usual to convince a friend of the harm that a narcissist has caused to him or her.

Example:

Evil may exhibit normal emotion at appropriate points. In many cases, evil is able to offer sorrow at a funeral and joy at a wedding, but the feelings are not connected to those who are suffering or rejoicing. They are a facade that hides a coldness of heart. I once met the father of one of my clients who was sexually abused by him over a ten-year period of time. He introduced himself and gratefully thanked me for my work with his daughter. He spoke glowingly about the changes he saw in her and then remarked, "I'm sure you are aware she has suffered a great many delusions about her past. What I have been most pleased by is that you seem to be concentrating on her sin, unlike her other therapists, who get caught up in her exaggerated stories." I answered, "I am honored to work with a woman of such integrity and willingness to grow in spite of her wounds," then I stood and looked into his face. When I did not respond enthusiastically to his compliment, he smiled wanly and his eyes turned dark. We parted, and I felt a chill run through me.

That interaction is how it plays out when it's a conversation with someone who has spent a long time talking to the one abused, and has good defenses against that type of deception.
I was shocked at how brazen the manipulation attempt of the father in that story was.
And it was on someone who he'd never met before.

The mental image of that conversation has made me a lot more wary of people's uninformed praises.
It makes alarm bells go off now.
So, yep, that really connected with your flattery example in the blog post you wrote, ali.

Yeah, I've had someone kind of narcissistic as a significant person in my life.
And so I expected others to be like that.
So I tended to apologize and accept blame a lot before really asking:
A. Is it honest for me say I'm to blame for this? (it tends to make things so much easier!) or
B. Should the dialogue even be -ABOUT- who gets the blame, as opposed to, y'know, how do we solve the external problem that I was wondering if I should take blame for?

ali- uggghhhh, you sold that house because you didn't have another straightforward way to get rid of that guy.
sorus- writing and deleting stuff here... it's what we do some days..

[Avatar]

I sometimes worry about having sociopathic and narcissistic tendencies.

--A

[peter]

I have seen no sign of it to date Av!

Any narcissistic tendencies I have are quickly dispelled by a glance in the nearest mirror: as to sociopathic ones - I'm not sure what it means so can't comment beyond observing that by and large my family and friends have never been backward in coming forward in respect of laying bare my (many) failings and I've not been called a sociopath yet.

More seriously, I think by and large people are people and are best taken as they come. I'm not sure that analysing your interactions and turning them into a kind of verbal chess game is a profitable exercise. Be honest and say what you have to say just about covers it for me (and I mean no disrespect to anyone who does choose to delve deeper into the 'nuts and bolts' of communication by this). But one thing I will say: in a life spent mixing with people from every walk of life both socially and professionally i can count the number of people I can describe as 'bad' on the fingers of one hand.

[Linna Heartbooger]

Some of us may have different definitions of "narcissism/narcissist."
(my working definition of "narcissism" when I started a thread awhile back was, I think, much milder than the clinical definition.)

More seriously, I think by and large people are people and are best taken as they come. I'm not sure that analysing your interactions and turning them into a kind of verbal chess game is a profitable exercise. Be honest and say what you have to say...

But what about the idea behind the common saying "Live with me and you will know me."?
There's a vast multitude of people whose deepest faults are really only made visible to those closest to them.

Even myself... my family inevitably sees more of the bad stuff out of me than acquaintances do.
(But that's not a terrible thing, given that there's bad stuff at all; my family is more equipped to put it in context.)
Because I feel the need to build up positive interactions with an acquaintance.
Because an acquaintance can just drop me.

There really are people who are life-sucking to their family members & to those in their lives who can't just "get up and walk out" without major consequences.
Mixing with them in public is not necessarily going to expose this.

And what about the portrait of "the wicked" in the Old Testament?
And how "an evil person" treats the weak and the innocent, the person who can't resist him?
(I think I'm going to say more on this on the "side-tracks and rabbit-trails regarding the Christian God" thread, or whatever I called that thing. It's The Close somewhere.)

[aliantha]

(I think I'm going to say more on this on the "side-tracks and rabbit-trails regarding the Christian God" thread, or whatever I called that thing. It's The Close somewhere.)

Cool. Because I would differentiate between evil (which I don't believe exists) and whacked-out behaviors/brain chemistry.

Re your point about counteracting narcissists: that's one reason why these people try to isolate their victims -- so the only frame of reference you have is theirs. That's why it's so important to preserve at least one relationship with someone who knows you well enough to tell you when the manipulator/abuser is messing with you (which would be any time their lips are moving, pretty much).

And that guy in your quote? I'm not at all surprised that he would attempt to manipulate the therapist. I watched the Lovely Wife (the woman my ex-husband married after me) do exactly this in front of several different authority figures, as she tried to convince them that *I* was guilty of the sort of lousy parenting behaviors that she herself committed. Borderline Personality Disorder was her particular flavor of crazy, and she was in denial that there was anything wrong with her. I could tell you stories that would curl your hair...

peter, if you've never run across someone who exhibits the sorts of behaviors in that Thought Catalog piece, consider yourself *very* lucky. I seem to attract them. Besides the basement dweller in my blog post and the Lovely Wife, I can think of at least two other people who have directed manipulative, crazy-making behavior at me. Maybe learning to deal with these people is my lesson for this lifetime. I dunno. At least I'm getting better at spotting them before I get sucked in too deep.

And before somebody suggests it : No, I'm not projecting my own behavior on others. I've had more than one therapist reassure me that it's not me, it's the other people.

I mean, I might be crazy. But not about this.

[Sorus]

At least I'm getting better at spotting them before I get sucked in too deep.

I thought I was pretty good at spotting them, but after reading that article, I realized one got in under my radar. I've had more than my quota of sociopaths in my life, but never been in a relationship with one, and I realize that's a whole 'nother kettle of snakes.

[Avatar]

I have seen no sign of it to date Av!

I hide it well.

--A

[Sorus]

They usually do hide it well. Months after my old neighbor spent a couple of weeks in jail and had his apartment raided by a SWAT team, they were still talking about what a nice guy he was...

He was a nice guy. Charming. Helpful.

I still don't know what I did to get on his bad side, but once I was there...

[aliantha]

You may never know, Sorus. And it's probably better that way.

I have seen no sign of it to date Av!

I hide it well.

--A

[Sorus]

Last I heard he'd moved to Utah - in a best case scenario, I'll never see him again.

He used to turn my power off and wait in the garage for me to come down to the circuit breaker, then he'd pull a gun and hold me hostage until someone else came by, at which point he'd be Mr. Nice Guy again. I started calling for a police escort every time my power went off, but of course he'd vanish when (and if) they arrived. So I got a reputation for wasting police time, and he spread rumors among the other neighbors that I was crazy and paranoid. I couldn't afford to move, but eventually he slipped and one of the neighbors who had been in the 'he's-such-a-nice-guy-he'd-never-do-that' camp witnessed him trying to break down my door with a gun in his hand. Fun times. It's only in the last two years or so that I've not had a panic attack when my power goes out.

[Linna Heartbooger]

He used to turn my power off and wait in the garage for me to come down to the circuit breaker, then he'd pull a gun and hold me hostage until someone else came by, at which point he'd be Mr. Nice Guy again. I started calling for a police escort every time my power went off, but of course he'd vanish when (and if) they arrived. So I got a reputation for wasting police time, and he spread rumors among the other neighbors that I was crazy and paranoid. I couldn't afford to move, but eventually he slipped and one of the neighbors who had been in the 'he's-such-a-nice-guy-he'd-never-do-that' camp witnessed him trying to break down my door with a gun in his hand. Fun times. It's only in the last two years or so that I've not had a panic attack when my power goes out.

HUGS!?!?!


HUGS!!!!!

So this is Sorus, the tough, strong woman we've been talking to this whole time.
I feel like, after an experience like that, every day you wake up in the morning, keep breathing, keep walking, you're doing something that requires strength...

I feel like there should a Monte Pythonesque depiction of aforementioned crazed sociopathic neighbor trying to "play it cool" when he slipped up in front of the other neighbor. (?!?!)

[Sorus]

I don't know exactly what happened - I was preparing to go out a front window at the time, and didn't find out why he stopped until the next day. I don't think 'playing it cool' was involved - he got a two-week involuntary psychiatric hold, and a five-year ban on owning firearms. Guessing he threatened the neighbor and/or the police.

Looking back - I knew even at the time that he wasn't actually going to shoot me - he got off on fear. I wonder sometimes what my life would be like if I had killed him in self defense - technically I could have if he was on my side of the door. I don't think I would have lost any sleep - if anything, I would have slept better knowing he wasn't still out there. But then I picture a jury full of people who thought he was a Nice Guy, and I think it probably wouldn't have been worth the consequences.

If it happened to me today, I don't know. I'm done with being a victim.

[aliantha]

OMG, Sorus.

Glad the guy is gone. And good for you for refusing to be a victim anymore.

[JIkj fjds j]

OMG, Sorus.

Glad the guy is gone. And good for you for refusing to be a victim anymore.

Definitely! That must have been horrifying.

This has to be one of the best threads ever on Kevinswatch. At least from a point of view that the material in the report can also be seen as relevant to identifying and dealing with Internet Trolls.
Usually I wouldn't let a Troll bother me, however Gang Trolling is a whole different ballpark. If it were to happen on somewhere like Facebook for example, where there are potentially thousands of members viewing a discussion then I'd put that down to a simple case of tough cheese, and bale. But Gang Trolling on Kevinswatch is downright disgusting!
What on earth are the other Mods thinking about. Are they here just for a laugh! And that's what really sickens me because it makes the passive Mods no better than the Virtual Rapist Gangbangers themselves - a bunch of limp wristed nippleheads.
And here's the unbelievable thing what hits home to the very heart of this site. The cracks will only continue to grow. What's wrong with you people! You've read the book, you know what happens.

Kevinswatch is turning into a toilet that's really beginning to stink.

[Zarathustra]

Gang Trolling on Kevinswatch is downright disgusting!
What on earth are the other Mods thinking about. Are they here just for a laugh! And that's what really sickens me because it makes the passive Mods no better than the Virtual Rapist Gangbangers themselves - a bunch of limp wristed nippleheads.
And here's the unbelievable thing what hits home to the very heart of this site. The cracks will only continue to grow. What's wrong with you people! You've read the book, you know what happens.

Kevinswatch is turning into a toilet that's really beginning to stink.

Whoa, I thought this was a thread about a guy in Ali's basement. You're calling people on the Watch virtual rapists? I believe that falls under #9 on the sociopath list, i.e. name calling.

We've seen charges like this before, usually about discussions in the Tank. Sometimes it's been directed toward me personally--so yes I'm a little defensive about it. I've been the target of smear campaigns in an attempt to "expose me" (#11) by one member here openly and by others on Facebook behind my back (#14).

But despite this, I don't think anyone here is literally a narcissistic sociopath. If you read the article, it's talking about deeply disturbed people who wreck their personal relationships, not merely people with whom you have contentious debates online. It's more than the mere presence of sarcasm and condescension. It's an actual psychological disorder.

Part of what creates a "toilet" environment is accusing people of psychological disorders that they don't have, which you're not qualified to diagnose, merely because you don't like their tone or what they have to say.

[Sorus]

Really not sure what to say to that, or even who it was directed at - but just in case it wasn't clear, what happened to me was many years ago, and didn't involve KW, anyone from KW, or even the internet, in any way.

[Linna Heartbooger]

I think one thing that's going on is this:
The pattern of how ali, sorus and I have been talking matches up in some objective ways to what a group of people would do if they wanted to perpetuate a false story on the internet.

Everything we say shifts the context of our community.
What if some lurker sees this conversation and wants to share a traumatic story - except say that person doesn't care too much about separating fact from fiction?
We, as a community, are now kind of socially vulnerable to having to "take it at face value."

That might not even be the main thing, though...
But *sigh*, saying stuff on the internet really -is- complicated.

[Sorus]

Posting personal stuff on a public forum is always a potential risk - I have some pretty severe trust issues (unsurprising), but on the other hand, it can be cathartic to talk about things that have had a lasting effect on you - which, I think, was the main purpose of this thread.