Bakker's The Prince of Nothing series

[Avatar]

Haha, sadly not yet. Been playing too much computer games to get through the 2 books I have to read before I can start my re-read, and even then I'll have to wait for the paperback. (Unless I crack...but I'm trying not to.)

--A

[Hiro]

SerScot, Hiro, Avatar, are any of you any closer to completing this leg of the slog?

It is completed, it took me a bit longer than expected because of the density and obscurity of the writing. I enjoyed TGO a lot, much more than TJE and I guess more than WLW as well. More detailed remarks hidden:

Spoiler

I do wonder about the timing of the events, as announced at the beginning of a chapter. Are they correct? I suspect there are some glaring mistakes there.

The image of the Urokkas lit by sorcerous fire is spectacular. The detonating nuke (...?) is very well written. The severe image of the radiation-ill crossing the river via the dead Sranc. Except for one chapter, in which not much was actually happening, I enjoyed the Momemn line as well. Although its climax, with the spectacular string of Deus ex Machinas, does indeed raise the question of the ultimate point of this storyline. Perhaps as a way to draw out the Hundred and other enemies of the Empire, but at the expense of the agency and lives of many promising characters.
Ishterebinth was certainly intriguing, the price of immortality, the descent into hell, the helm as exposition device, the atmosphere.
The Ishual line, except for one chapter, was enjoyable as well. The revelations about the Dunyain and the Survivor's perspective were interesting, although I didn't feel they progressed very far beyond the previewed chapter.

The overall darkness of the vision of this series: no salvation in this life, no salvation after. It creates a claustrophic effect: a universe as a prison.

So a lot of interesting stuff. I still feel that it is a flawed series as well, only human, for there were some very uninteresting elements:

Aurang's flyby, while promising, went nowhere.

The Sranc Horde, an enormous monotonous army is just not that interesting as a foe. No matter how much I enjoyed the use of geography around Dagliash. And the nuke that killed the entire Horde, huh? That didn't make a lot of sense, because of the cover of those mountains. It would seem that the Ordeal, on the southern side of the mountain range would have to be more exposed than the Horde on the northern side, no?

The one Ishual chapter that didn't interest me was the debate whether to kill the surviving Dunyain or not. It read almost as flat as that 'Teach me' scene in TJE.

Bakker's use of metaphor is still strong, I like how he devices them within the understanding of the characters of this world, comparing the chaos in Momemn with a bowl of water on a racing chariot, for instance. Some thoughtful points about faith, and well-framed as No compass is so puny as the now, and yet it is the estate of man, his ephemeral empire.

Two more points for Madness, have you noticed Larry's review at Ofblog?

And, since you are on the SRD forum, have you read the Gap series? If not, then you should, its narrative drive and characters still exceed what has come afterwards, including this intriguing yet flawed series.

[Madness]

Haha, sadly not yet. Been playing too much computer games to get through the 2 books I have to read before I can start my re-read, and even then I'll have to wait for the paperback. (Unless I crack...but I'm trying not to.)

--A

Lol. What are you playing and what books are you reading currently? As I've mentioned, I think, I'd definitely recommend rereading at least TJE and WLW before diving into TGO.

Apologies in advance for the wall of black between quoting and responding to Hiro.

SerScot, Hiro, Avatar, are any of you any closer to completing this leg of the slog?

It is completed, it took me a bit longer than expected because of the density and obscurity of the writing. I enjoyed TGO a lot, much more than TJE and I guess more than WLW as well.

I get the feeling people are pining for conclusion more so after this volume than any previous, especially after the time it has taken to expedite TGO.

More detailed remarks hidden:

Spoiler

I do wonder about the timing of the events, as announced at the beginning of a chapter. Are they correct? I suspect there are some glaring mistakes there.

Spoiler

Those are some glaring mistakes. We actually have a thread for errata at TGO in the hopes that Bakker can get some changes made in future releases...

Fucking Overlook .

Spoiler

The image of the Urokkas lit by sorcerous fire is spectacular. The detonating nuke (...?) is very well written. The severe image of the radiation-ill crossing the river via the dead Sranc. Except for one chapter, in which not much was actually happening, I enjoyed the Momemn line as well. Although its climax, with the spectacular string of Deus ex Machinas, does indeed raise the question of the ultimate point of this storyline. Perhaps as a way to draw out the Hundred and other enemies of the Empire, but at the expense of the agency and lives of many promising characters.

Spoiler

I fucking love the "mountains afire."

As per Momemn, I know people miss it, as I did until it was pointed out to me by another draft reader: Meppa is still alive, for whatever nefarious reason Kellhus has.

Otherwise, as you say, the Gods seem to have their Hands tied up with Esmenet and Momemn and do so because they know the moment Kellhus returns to Momemn. And arguably Kellhus might anticipate that. Not even to bring up the possible Gilgoal/Ajokli nods, Kellhus' own god-entanglement, or, as a friend of mine says, a much-less referenced fact that Bakker buries into TDTCB that places are believed to be part and parcel with the Gods (Momemn, Sumna, Shimeh/Kyudea).

Add-in Ciphrang-Malowebi and diffusing the Fanim, I'd say in some cases people just don't seem to like where Bakker's taken the story... and that's ok .

Spoiler

The overall darkness of the vision of this series: no salvation in this life, no salvation after. It creates a claustrophic effect: a universe as a prison.

Spoiler

Indeed. Though, I'm not sure I totally agree with this estimation, as Bakker has previously mentioned Redemption as separate from Oblivion and Damnation as well as "Angelic Ciphrang" who cannot be pulled into the world, out of text.

Spoiler

The Sranc Horde, an enormous monotonous army is just not that interesting as a foe. No matter how much I enjoyed the use of geography around Dagliash. And the nuke that killed the entire Horde, huh? That didn't make a lot of sense, because of the cover of those mountains. It would seem that the Ordeal, on the southern side of the mountain range would have to be more exposed than the Horde on the northern side, no?

Spoiler

I think the Schools are supposed to have managed boxing the Horde into the southside of the Urrokas.

Bakker's use of metaphor is still strong, I like how he devices them within the understanding of the characters of this world, comparing the chaos in Momemn with a bowl of water on a racing chariot, for instance. Some thoughtful points about faith, and well-framed as No compass is so puny as the now, and yet it is the estate of man, his ephemeral empire.

Love it. I've always envied that strength to use only in-world analogies and metaphor.

Two more points for Madness, have you noticed Larry's review at Ofblog?

And, since you are on the SRD forum, have you read the Gap series? If not, then you should, its narrative drive and characters still exceed what has come afterwards, including this intriguing yet flawed series.

I hadn't seen Larry's OF Blog review. Thanks, Hiro.

I haven't read The Gap series, though I feel like recently one of the Second Apocalypse members burned through most of them. Another has heartily recommended to me as well before but The Gap and I just haven't synced up yet. It'll happen.

Also, Canadian release was yesterday (!!), though, I had to call a Chapters to find out that they were actually getting shipped physical copies. Currently in Ontario, Chapters, Coles, and Indigo stores list The Great Ordeal as "this item is online only and is not available in any store."

Also, also, Bakker recently appeared on the Grim Tidings Podcast, which has previously done amazing episodes with Abercrombie and Erikson.

Cheers all.

[Avatar]

Lol. What are you playing and what books are you reading currently? As I've mentioned, I think, I'd definitely recommend rereading at least TJE and WLW before diving into TGO.

Playing The Witcher 3. Just finished the main storyline last night, and starting on the expansions now.

And re-reading Erikson's Forge of Darkness, (book 1 of his Kharkanas trilogy), so that I can read the recently released book 2, Fall of Light.

(There's an Erikson sub-forum here, if you're into the Malazan books. (And if you're not, you should be. ) )

Will definitely be reading all the PoN books and the first two AE books before the new one once I get it.

--A

[Madness]

Playing The Witcher 3. Just finished the main storyline last night, and starting on the expansions now.

I feel like someone who now writes books famously worked on that...

And re-reading Erikson's Forge of Darkness, (book 1 of his Kharkanas trilogy), so that I can read the recently released book 2, Fall of Light.

(There's an Erikson sub-forum here, if you're into the Malazan books. (And if you're not, you should be. ) )

I need to give a go as an adult. I read partway up to and into Midnight Tides (which, I believe, is book five) when I was 16 or 17? I feel like I might have just not been ready for it.

Will definitely be reading all the PoN books and the first two AE books before the new one once I get it.

--A

Lol - yeah, I think you and I had this back and forth on the last page .

Good luck to you. That's... like seven books to read before you can get into TGO. Mind you, again, full experience is rereading all the books before the newest one.

[Avatar]

That's ok, I usually read pretty quick when I don't have a new game to play. Quicker than is good for me in fact.

I might squeeze in Feist's "Conclave of Shadows" books before starting PoN, since I just got them, and ideally I'd like to be closer to getting TGO before I start the others.

The Malazan books really are great. Some of the best epic fantasy I've read, with remarkably few low spots for such a massive series.

--A

[Madness]

Lol - well, thankfully you're a prolific reader, Avatar.

Did you read any of Esslemont's Malazan stuff?

[Avatar]

Yep. Just about to order his latest, book 1 of a new trilogy about Dancer & Kellanved's ascendancy.

I know there are discussions over which is the better, but they meld pretty seamlessly to me...for me the world is everything, so as long as their worlds are consistent between the 2 authors, I don't really distinguish. I lump them all together as Malazan.

--A

[Madness]

Bizarre. Sorry, to stray so off-topic, I was just reading something last night that implied there were some pretty interesting differences between the two authors.

Found it on SA, in a response to another member who is trying to get into GOTM:

It can help to think of the Malazan world in D&D terms (because this shared universe of Erickson and ICE came out of their shared D&D campaigns they ran together, building their world and also why the two authors disagree on somethings, like what sex K'rul is. It is also why they write in different parts of the world.

[Avatar]

To me the differences are minor, and IIRC, manage to meld together. For example, the K'rul issue...once the "new" sex is defined, I seem to remember that it then becomes standard for both authors. K'rul is an elder god afterall, if he/she decides to change gender, it can...

--A

[Madness]

To me the differences are minor, and IIRC, manage to meld together. For example, the K'rul issue...once the "new" sex is defined, I seem to remember that it then becomes standard for both authors. K'rul is an elder god afterall, if he/she decides to change gender, it can...

--A

Can't argue with that .

[Avatar]

--A

[Zarathustra]

I've started TGO today, made it through the first chapter. I love how he can convey desperation, hope, dread, and relief as Esmi tries to find her son. His characters seem to bleed right through the pages, feeling their own struggles deeply enough to bridge that gap between reality and fiction. They feel real.

I also love how he get his prose to resonate with deeper meaning by making everything a philosophy lesson on what it means to be human. He does it right there on the page, right out in the open, so that it's obviously a narrative "trick," or tool, but it's one that I like very much, despite how obvious it makes the author's hand. It's a fair trick. He's being honest with us. (In other words, he's not doing something dishonest like dangling a concocted, implausible ignorance before us like a carrot to keep us reading.)

Example:

Our knowledge commands us, though our conceit claims otherwise. It drives our decisions and so harnesses our deeds--as surely as any cane or lash. She knew well the grievous fate of princes in times of revolt ...

Another:

Hope is ever the greatest luxury of the helpless, the capacity to suppose knowledge that circumstances denied. So long as she remained a captive in Naree's apartment, Esmenet could always suppose that her little boy had found some way.

In both cases, we move from the general to the specific--from a universal human truth to its instantiation in this scene, in this character, so that it works simultaneously as character development and thematic exploration. It also works on the level of the prose by setting up that elusive rhythm that every writer seeks, the one that keeps a reader moving forward as he glimpses the underlying pattern, the connections between sentences, as each leads logically to the next. "Our knowledge commands us" flows right into "she knew well," so that we see immediately why Bakker chose this moment to instruct us on this particular aspect of being human. He could have left off the first, general, statement and still described the same scene, but her knowing wouldn't have carried the same weight, drive, and urgency ... the same meaning.

Thus, it even helps set the scene, for each scene in our private dramas are enacted within the context of the larger human drama going on around us and before us, that which we all share. We don't always notice it, but Bakker points it out to great effect, so that these characters and this story ride on a wave of humanity and history like no other.

[Avatar]

Arg...jealous...

--A

[Avatar]

Ooh, available here by special order...could take up to 3 months, but screw it...I've ordered it.

--A

[Madness]

Nice, Zarathustra !

Someone mentioned somewhere on the interwebs that Bakker's strength is analogy and metaphor. On a sentence by sentence basis, there are so many really good one-liners across the books.

Avatar, that's quite the wait. I hope it doesn't take that long.

[Avatar]

Me too...and it's not guaranteed...if they can't get it for me within 3 months they'll refund me.

One of the drawbacks to living at the bottom end of Africa, y'know.

Still, that gives me plenty of time to read Fall of Light and Feists "Conclave of Shadows" and re-read all the PoN and AE books again.

--A

[Madness]

Lol - That's rough. However, you seem to read voraciously so I don't have to feel too bad for you .

[Avatar]

Yeah, I'm generally pretty quick...it has it's drawbacks...TGO will be a perfect example...after waiting months for it, I'll finish it in a couple of days, so it's usually a little anti-climatic. Ah well...It has its benefits too.

--A

[Brinn]

I've started TGO today, made it through the first chapter. I love how he can convey desperation, hope, dread, and relief as Esmi tries to find her son. His characters seem to bleed right through the pages, feeling their own struggles deeply enough to bridge that gap between reality and fiction. They feel real.

I also love how he get his prose to resonate with deeper meaning by making everything a philosophy lesson on what it means to be human. He does it right there on the page, right out in the open, so that it's obviously a narrative "trick," or tool, but it's one that I like very much, despite how obvious it makes the author's hand. It's a fair trick. He's being honest with us. (In other words, he's not doing something dishonest like dangling a concocted, implausible ignorance before us like a carrot to keep us reading.)

Example:

Our knowledge commands us, though our conceit claims otherwise. It drives our decisions and so harnesses our deeds--as surely as any cane or lash. She knew well the grievous fate of princes in times of revolt ...

Another:

Hope is ever the greatest luxury of the helpless, the capacity to suppose knowledge that circumstances denied. So long as she remained a captive in Naree's apartment, Esmenet could always suppose that her little boy had found some way.

In both cases, we move from the general to the specific--from a universal human truth to its instantiation in this scene, in this character, so that it works simultaneously as character development and thematic exploration. It also works on the level of the prose by setting up that elusive rhythm that every writer seeks, the one that keeps a reader moving forward as he glimpses the underlying pattern, the connections between sentences, as each leads logically to the next. "Our knowledge commands us" flows right into "she knew well," so that we see immediately why Bakker chose this moment to instruct us on this particular aspect of being human. He could have left off the first, general, statement and still described the same scene, but her knowing wouldn't have carried the same weight, drive, and urgency ... the same meaning.

Thus, it even helps set the scene, for each scene in our private dramas are enacted within the context of the larger human drama going on around us and before us, that which we all share. We don't always notice it, but Bakker points it out to great effect, so that these characters and this story ride on a wave of humanity and history like no other.

This is as good of a critical explanation of Bakker's prose as I have seen. I've often felt that his prose "connects" with me on a deeper level than just about any other author I've read and this has given me some insight, insight that resonates, into why. Thanks for this Z.