Bakker's The Prince of Nothing series

[Zarathustra]

Ha, what a coincidence. Brinn, I was just praising one of your old posts in the Tank about Katrina (which has become relevant again with the Louisiana flooding and the issue of Presidential response or lack thereof).

Thanks a lot for the compliment--and for introducing me to this author. I'm in awe of Bakker's writing. He has moved to the top of my list, above Donaldson in terms of writing ability (especially after the disappointing novellas). If my books ever get published--yes, I'm still working on them--I'll have to thank Bakker for blazing the trail that I'm on. My project has always been deeply philosophical, but I held myself back in my prose, worrying that I had to make it accessible. Since reading Bakker, I've let that worry go, and doing so has transformed my writing. I've rewritten virtually my entire book.

Knowing that he worked on his first novel for 20 years before his career took off has also been an inspiration for someone like me, who has been plugging away for much too long. I'm also finding myself in a similar position of possibly needing to split my work into more books than I originally thought. My page count has seriously gotten out of hand.

[Holsety]

To me the differences are minor, and IIRC, manage to meld together. For example, the K'rul issue...once the "new" sex is defined, I seem to remember that it then becomes standard for both authors. K'rul is an elder god afterall, if he/she decides to change gender, it can...

--A

I know it's not a malazan topic, but just to quickly talk about continuity in malazan: one of the other big potential issues comes up between GotM and the rest of the series, because Erikson had to shop around for some time after writing GotM before getting it published. I mean, I'm not sure when he started writing Deadhouse Gates, but he started trying to get GotM published around '91, got it published in 99 and Deadhouse Gates was published in 2000. I can't help but suspect that the fast pace of publishing the malazan books after GotM was assisted by the long hiatus.

Anyway, there's some definite contradictions between gotm and the later books. One that comes to mind is that orfantal - not an elder god, just a tiste andii - is korlat's sister in gotm (she calls him her sister in like, the one scene they appear), and brother in memories of ice when he reappears. Orfantal's gender in gotm seems to be completely forgotten, and never addressed or considered again. Orfantal is pretty important in the kharkhanas trilogy, but in the book of the fallen, he does nearly nothing, so it's kind of hard to care.

K'rul was probably intended to be able to change genders - it's even talked about explicitly in forge of darkness. Since it really makes sense for k'rul to be of variable identity, and elder gods in general vary their identity a lot, it's not much of a retcon in his case, and may have been planned from the start.

There's a great deal more that can be said. Erikson obviously tries to play with the idea of a variety of different conflicting myths depicting his backstory, none of which get at the whole truth. No one knows everything. I also think he is a bit careless with consistency from time to time. So even putting potential contradictions with esslemont aside, I think you'll spot some potential timeline and consistency issues if you pay attention to erikson (I think there's a rather glaring issue about dragnipur's age relative to k'rul between gotm and forge of darkness).

There's a lot more that could be said, but I'll stop there. I'm sorry to invade the topic, but I thought it might be of interest to those who were discussing it earlier if they come back in here.

[Madness]

Yeah, I'm generally pretty quick...it has it's drawbacks...TGO will be a perfect example...after waiting months for it, I'll finish it in a couple of days, so it's usually a little anti-climatic. Ah well...It has its benefits too.

--A

Well, I mean... everyone waited five years and still devoured it in no more than a few day's time. Foolish readers .

This is as good of a critical explanation of Bakker's prose as I have seen. I've often felt that his prose "connects" with me on a deeper level than just about any other author I've read and this has given me some insight, insight that resonates, into why. Thanks for this Z.

+1 that deeper level.

Thanks a lot for the compliment--and for introducing me to this author. I'm in awe of Bakker's writing. He has moved to the top of my list, above Donaldson in terms of writing ability (especially after the disappointing novellas). If my books ever get published--yes, I'm still working on them--I'll have to thank Bakker for blazing the trail that I'm on. My project has always been deeply philosophical, but I held myself back in my prose, worrying that I had to make it accessible. Since reading Bakker, I've let that worry go, and doing so has transformed my writing. I've rewritten virtually my entire book.

As am I in awe of his writing and will owe a debt to his writing in my own writerly ambitions.

I know it's not a malazan topic, but just to quickly talk about continuity in malazan: one of the other big potential issues comes up between GotM and the rest of the series, because Erikson had to shop around for some time after writing GotM before getting it published. I mean, I'm not sure when he started writing Deadhouse Gates, but he started trying to get GotM published around '91, got it published in 99 and Deadhouse Gates was published in 2000. I can't help but suspect that the fast pace of publishing the malazan books after GotM was assisted by the long hiatus.

There's actually really interesting insight into this by Erikson on the Grim Tidings podcast: he lucked into this random situation where a competitor to his publisher wanted to pay him in advance for all ten books in his series - his publisher was under the impression that he was writing like three books or something - and his publisher matched the competitor's offer!

So with a couple road-bumps over the publishing schedule, Erikson was paid IN-ADVANCE (!!) a quarterly salary over nine years for the volumes following GOTM.

If only Bakker could land himself in that pile!

[Holsety]

There's actually really interesting insight into this by Erikson on the Grim Tidings podcast: he lucked into this random situation where a competitor to his publisher wanted to pay him in advance for all ten books in his series - his publisher was under the impression that he was writing like three books or something - and his publisher matched the competitor's offer!

So with a couple road-bumps over the publishing schedule, Erikson was paid IN-ADVANCE (!!) a quarterly salary over nine years for the volumes following GOTM.

That's hilarious.

It felt like Erikson banged out the malazan books pretty quickly. Bakker also mostly got these books out pretty fast, though there was a big space before great ordeal. I'm guessing part of the reason for that is that he was originally planning on Aspect Emperor being a trilogy, right?

[Avatar]

Anyway, there's some definite contradictions between gotm and the later books. One that comes to mind is that orfantal - not an elder god, just a tiste andii - is korlat's sister in gotm (she calls him her sister in like, the one scene they appear), and brother in memories of ice when he reappears. Orfantal's gender in gotm seems to be completely forgotten, and never addressed or considered again. Orfantal is pretty important in the kharkhanas trilogy, but in the book of the fallen, he does nearly nothing, so it's kind of hard to care.

Didn't remember him being a sister.

K'rul was probably intended to be able to change genders - it's even talked about explicitly in forge of darkness. Since it really makes sense for k'rul to be of variable identity, and elder gods in general vary their identity a lot, it's not much of a retcon in his case, and may have been planned from the start.

Yeah, just read that in Forge/Fall.

(I think there's a rather glaring issue about dragnipur's age relative to k'rul between gotm and forge of darkness).

Really? Don't recall that either.

--A

[Madness]

There's actually really interesting insight into this by Erikson on the Grim Tidings podcast: he lucked into this random situation where a competitor to his publisher wanted to pay him in advance for all ten books in his series - his publisher was under the impression that he was writing like three books or something - and his publisher matched the competitor's offer!

So with a couple road-bumps over the publishing schedule, Erikson was paid IN-ADVANCE (!!) a quarterly salary over nine years for the volumes following GOTM.

That's hilarious.

It felt like Erikson banged out the malazan books pretty quickly.

Right?!

Bakker also mostly got these books out pretty fast, though there was a big space before great ordeal. I'm guessing part of the reason for that is that he was originally planning on Aspect Emperor being a trilogy, right?

Yeah, the gap between WLW and TGO is a messy storm of circumstances (which have ultimately led to this largely lackluster TGO release).

Early on in writing "TUC," Bakker decided to gamble and write two books simultaneously - which he only made clear(er) semi-recently. This is borne of his tendency to write all over the place as it were, non-linearly. Near end of year 2014, he submits all the material for both "TGO" and "TUC" (over a year or two past a deadline, I believe) and asks to renegotiate his contract so that TAE becomes a tetralogy with the Expanded Glossary appearing in TUC-proper.

Contemporarily, early 2015, though Bakker himself doesn't seem to have found out until months later, the long-time Overlook editor assigned to Bakker - and the only one at Overlook familiar with the series - leaves abruptly. Despite that, Overlook remains "committed" to the series and spends the next yearish privately renegotiating TAE as trilogy cum tetralogy with Orbit UK. After that (Sep/Oct 2015, I think) Overlook put out TGO fairly fast (basically like an eight or seven month turn around) - however, the problems with the book are clear in terms an editor unfamiliar with the series and the botch-up copy-edit job that was done in that quick turnaround.

Added to all that, the publicist assigned to Bakker (among other Overlook authors) quit the week of TGO's revised US release date and to my knowledge has not been replaced.

Hopefully Fortuna favours Bakker more in the future.

[Avatar]

Yeah...because I hate waiting so long for the next book.

--A

[Madness]

Lol - well, technically, you're waiting for the most recent book right now but...

[Avatar]

Haha, true enough. It still feels like the next one though.

--A

[Zarathustra]

I'm about halfway through TGO. I think the book is great so far, even though very little has actually happened. People are having conversations, basically. Making decisions. But the revelations are fascinating.

The best chapters by far are the ones with Akka and Mimara, and what they find at Ishual. Their journey wasn't quite the dead end or waste of time that the end of the last book has us believe. Learning how it was destroyed was interesting.

Okay, now to spoiler territory:

Spoiler

The Survivor claims that the Singers showed him that everything he thought was wrong, that what comes before doesn't always determine what comes after. From this he concludes that there is meaning and purpose in the world. I get that--what comes after determining what comes before is another way to describe teleological beliefs. But how does the existence of magic (which the Survivor didn't think existed) show this? Granted, magic is kind of like a contradiction in logic, where the presence allows you to "prove" anything (which is why showing the presence of contradiction is a way to disprove an argument). Magic in our universe would contradict the laws of science.

But is this the case in their world? Magic seems very lawful and orderly, just another layer of their universe's laws.

If someone can help me out here without spoiling the rest of the book, that would be great! Thanks.

Spoiler

I also like how Bakker is keeping the issue of whether Khellus is good or bad in question. One would think that Sorweel's story proves that Khellus is false, but then the Nonmen claim that the gods themselves are misled on this issue.

[Avatar]

Will. Not. Read. Spoilers.

--A

[Hiro]

I'm about halfway through TGO. I think the book is great so far, even though very little has actually happened. People are having conversations, basically. Making decisions. But the revelations are fascinating.

The best chapters by far are the ones with Akka and Mimara, and what they find at Ishual. Their journey wasn't quite the dead end or waste of time that the end of the last book has us believe. Learning how it was destroyed was interesting.

Okay, now to spoiler territory:

Spoiler

The Survivor claims that the Singers showed him that everything he thought was wrong, that what comes before doesn't always determine what comes after. From this he concludes that there is meaning and purpose in the world. I get that--what comes after determining what comes before is another way to describe teleological beliefs. But how does the existence of magic (which the Survivor didn't think existed) show this? Granted, magic is kind of like a contradiction in logic, where the presence allows you to "prove" anything (which is why showing the presence of contradiction is a way to disprove an argument). Magic in our universe would contradict the laws of science.

But is this the case in their world? Magic seems very lawful and orderly, just another layer of their universe's laws.

If someone can help me out here without spoiling the rest of the book, that would be great! Thanks.

Spoiler

I also like how Bakker is keeping the issue of whether Khellus is good or bad in question. One would think that Sorweel's story proves that Khellus is false, but then the Nonmen claim that the gods themselves are misled on this issue.

Right, regarding your first question, I'll give it a shot...

Spoiler

My point is view on this is perhaps overly simple, given the often indeterminable web of meanings Bakker weaves. I don't think the existence of magic per se is the point. The Dunyain succeed in vanquishing the horde of Sranc, so I guess they assume that victory will follow from this. As what has come before must determine what comes after. Cue the Quya attack that devastates them. It shows the Survivor a few things:
- The Dunyain, being isolated, are ignorant. (Ignorance is a recurring motif.)
- Ignorance has serious consequences;
- The logic of before and after is faulty. In fact the lack of control over their circumstances demonstrates the folly of the Dunyain, certainly in this instance.

I could have missed something, but in this case, I don't feel a deeper explanation is required. Although I could be wrong though.

[Zarathustra]

Thanks, Hiro. I don't think you're wrong, I just think there's more to it (as you admit might be the case). Here's the relevant text, bold is my emphasis:

Spoiler

"The World was wild with Cause, true, but it could be overcome. How could so few [Dunyain] exact such a toll otherwise? The ferocity of the inexplicable attack waned, then faded. The Shriekers relented, slunk howling back into the forests. And despite everything, the Survivor had thought the Dunyain confirmed: in their discipline, in their training and their doctrine--even in their fanatical solitude ....

Then the Singers had come, shouting in voices of light and fire, and the extent of their delusion had been made clear.


That which comes before determines that which comes after ... This had been the sacred rule of rules, the all-embracing dictum, the foundation upon which the whole of their society--their flesh as much as their doctrine--had been raised.

Demolished in the space of a heartbeat.

The Survivor had watched, not so much stupefied as numbed. <snip> No miracle could be more violent. Words--words had called forth death and energy from emptiness. He had watched that which comes after determine what comes before. He had witnessed the rank impossibility that the Manuscripts called sorcery, the overthrow of his every assumption. "

So ...

Spoiler

It does seem that the discovery of sorcery was the turning point, both in the battle itself and in his assumptions. Until that moment, he still believed that which comes before determines that which comes after. That dogma was overthrown in a heartbeat upon seeing sorcery. And in seeing sorcery, he explicitly states that he saw that which comes after determine what comes before. Something about the impossibility of magic was that revelation.

It seems to me Bakker is talking about more than merely the temporal order of events. He's talking about causation. Causes lead to effects. The reverse of that is effects leading to causes, or perhaps effects being causes in themselves. So magic is an "uncaused effect." It comes from nothingness, rather than a natural cause.

Maybe that's it. It's not that the arrow of time is reversed, or that causation can run backwards, it's simply that magic is uncaused effects.

But that still doesn't get you to purpose and meaning. And it seems to be contradicted on the next page in the following quote:

More text, page 227:

Spoiler

The Siege and Fall of Ishual ...

The loss: a mere place. What was this compared to the revelation that accompanied it?

That which comes after could determine that which come before ... The impossible made manifest. The world was an arrow with one and only one direction, or so they had believed. Only the Logos, only reason and reflection could bend the world's inexorable course. Thus the Dunyain and their hallowed mission: to perfect the Logos, to grasp the origins of thought, bend the arrow into a perfect circle, and so attain the Absolute ...

Become a self-moving soul.

Free.

So ...

Spoiler

A self-moving soul would also be like an effect that was its own cause, or like magic. And bending the arrow into a circle sure sounds like reversing the arrow so that which comes after determines that which comes before. So I'm not sure why--if the Dunyain already thought bending the arrow back upon itself was possible--they didn't already believe in a sort of "magic." They wanted to do something very similar through logic and reason.

One conclusion is that freewill is like magic. Or put another way: freewill is impossible, since magic is also impossible (in our world). Bakker is using fantasy tropes to show us our own ignorance, not merely the Dunyain's.

But that point has already been obvious for a long time. The Dunyain have been playing upon this ignorance since book 1. That's what makes them so powerful, that people don't realize that they're not free.

So he has to be saying more, I think. And that seems clear in this final quote, below.

More text, page 230:

Spoiler

That which comes after, he now knew, determined that which comes before. Purpose was no illusion. Meaning was real.

So ...

Spoiler

How does he get purpose and meaning from all of this? Purpose and meaning can only come through violating causation? They're incompatible with determinism? Seeing the impossible made manifest means that there is purpose in the world? I don't get it. Purpose and meaning are miracles?

[Hiro]

Thanks, Hiro. I don't think you're wrong, I just think there's more to it (as you admit might be the case). Here's the relevant text, bold is my emphasis:

Spoiler

"The World was wild with Cause, true, but it could be overcome. How could so few [Dunyain] exact such a toll otherwise? The ferocity of the inexplicable attack waned, then faded. The Shriekers relented, slunk howling back into the forests. And despite everything, the Survivor had thought the Dunyain confirmed: in their discipline, in their training and their doctrine--even in their fanatical solitude ....

Then the Singers had come, shouting in voices of light and fire, and the extent of their delusion had been made clear.


That which comes before determines that which comes after ... This had been the sacred rule of rules, the all-embracing dictum, the foundation upon which the whole of their society--their flesh as much as their doctrine--had been raised.

Demolished in the space of a heartbeat.

The Survivor had watched, not so much stupefied as numbed. <snip> No miracle could be more violent. Words--words had called forth death and energy from emptiness. He had watched that which comes after determine what comes before. He had witnessed the rank impossibility that the Manuscripts called sorcery, the overthrow of his every assumption. "

So ...

Spoiler

It does seem that the discovery of sorcery was the turning point, both in the battle itself and in his assumptions. Until that moment, he still believed that which comes before determines that which comes after. That dogma was overthrown in a heartbeat upon seeing sorcery. And in seeing sorcery, he explicitly states that he saw that which comes after determine what comes before. Something about the impossibility of magic was that revelation.

It seems to me Bakker is talking about more than merely the temporal order of events. He's talking about causation. Causes lead to effects. The reverse of that is effects leading to causes, or perhaps effects being causes in themselves. So magic is an "uncaused effect." It comes from nothingness, rather than a natural cause.

Maybe that's it. It's not that the arrow of time is reversed, or that causation can run backwards, it's simply that magic is uncaused effects.

But that still doesn't get you to purpose and meaning. And it seems to be contradicted on the next page in the following quote:

More text, page 227:

Spoiler

The Siege and Fall of Ishual ...

The loss: a mere place. What was this compared to the revelation that accompanied it?

That which comes after could determine that which come before ... The impossible made manifest. The world was an arrow with one and only one direction, or so they had believed. Only the Logos, only reason and reflection could bend the world's inexorable course. Thus the Dunyain and their hallowed mission: to perfect the Logos, to grasp the origins of thought, bend the arrow into a perfect circle, and so attain the Absolute ...

Become a self-moving soul.

Free.

So ...

Spoiler

A self-moving soul would also be like an effect that was its own cause, or like magic. And bending the arrow into a circle sure sounds like reversing the arrow so that which comes after determines that which comes before. So I'm not sure why--if the Dunyain already thought bending the arrow back upon itself was possible--they didn't already believe in a sort of "magic." They wanted to do something very similar through logic and reason.

One conclusion is that freewill is like magic. Or put another way: freewill is impossible, since magic is also impossible (in our world). Bakker is using fantasy tropes to show us our own ignorance, not merely the Dunyain's.

But that point has already been obvious for a long time. The Dunyain have been playing upon this ignorance since book 1. That's what makes them so powerful, that people don't realize that they're not free.

So he has to be saying more, I think. And that seems clear in this final quote, below.

More text, page 230:

Spoiler

That which comes after, he now knew, determined that which comes before. Purpose was no illusion. Meaning was real.

So ...

Spoiler

How does he get purpose and meaning from all of this? Purpose and meaning can only come through violating causation? They're incompatible with determinism? Seeing the impossible made manifest means that there is purpose in the world? I don't get it. Purpose and meaning are miracles?

Well Zarathustra, this is part of what intrigues and confuses me about this series. These possible contradictory interpretations and meaning do serve to make this world more 'real'. The thing is though, some of these contradictions, or possible contradictions as Bakker's endgame is far from clear yet, undermine the story's logic.

Now, there may be a plan here, as these contradictions seem to occur because of dropping in these philosophical Dunyain into this magical universe. Plan in a thematic way, I mean or I gather.

But I am not sure whether all of this will make sense finally.

Spoiler

I might be mistaken here, but I thought that the Dunyain had tried to isolate themselves from magic/sorcerers. Cannot find the textual evidence, after only reading the series once, I wouldn't know where to look, so I could be wrong.

However, I don't get the Dunyain anymore. They isolate themselves to survive the Apocalypse, alright. Then start this breeding program, ok. Some years later Moenghus leaves Ishual and starts his reign of domination and learns magic. Calls Kellhus to join him, while the Dunyain order Moenghus killed.

But, what did the Dunyain expect would happen?

They isolate themselves so they cannot see what happens in the outside world. Do they expect they can just stick with their program unaffected by anything happening anywhere? Does that strike you as an insight worthy of a Dunyain? It seems bloody unlikely. Sure enough, things go awry.

Apparently, as you quoted, I didn't remember, they *do* have some manuscripts detailing sorcery, but still they are surprised the Singers/Quya come to wreck Ishual?

And even with the manuscript already there, only when confirmed the Survivor starts to doubt their path? When such a possibility is raised in their books, won't (some) Dunyain question the merits of either or both of the outside world and their own path?

Before even understanding the implications that throw the Survivor, I'm distracted by these contradictions. And like you, I don't understand the possible implications either.

[Madness]

Watch those spoilers, friends.

In other news, The Unholy Consult exists!

[Madness]

Avatar, Orbit UK release is tomorrow! Have you got your book yet?!

[Zarathustra]

The book is starting to drag a bit. The Sorweel chapter with the boatman went on too long, but ended well. The Dagliash chapter is a great description of battle, but also feels too long. I wish there was more character development. Overall very little has yet to happen. The writing is still great, but almost too good. The detail and density is staggering.

[Madness]

Lol, Zarathustra.

I'm excited to hear what you think of the end.

[Brinn]

bump

[Zarathustra]

I'm getting there ... hold your bumps.

Spoiler

Was that a nuclear explosion at the end of the Dagliash? I can't imagine anything else that would produce such sickness in people. My god. Horrific.

The earthquake just happened, and Khellus returned. I just read the part where he supposedly died, but I don't buy it just yet. It's about time Esmi found out about Kelmo. I've been waiting for that storyline to go somewhere.

So far, pretty brutal and epic.
I'll get back to you all after I've finished.