How awesome was Lebbick?

[Usivius]

[burgs]

There is an interesting similarity later in A Man Rides Through, with regard to motivations.

Gilbur is in his cave, doing his private Imagery, happy as a clam in his solitude, when his roof crashes in. Eremis saves him, but he is left physically wounded, and psychologically wounded. That man RAGED.

Geraden and Teresa, similarly, were caught in an avalanche, of sorts, and both of them came out of that exactly as they were before they went in.

Again, this is a problem I have with SRDs motivations. I understand that every person is different, certainly, and one person always reacts differently than another in the exact same situation, but this particular reaction was too extreme, for my liking.

Think of Geraden. He’s spent how many years fumbling around as an Apt while younger Apts are given chasubles? It’s his life’s dream to be an Imager. Yet he fails – again, and again, and again, and his failures are *legendary*. He’s certainly mocked for his failures. Many in Orison love him because he’s a son of the Domne, but he’s not well thought of (or well treated) in the Congery. That’s groundwork enough for villainy. Years of failure, years of mockery…if that isn’t a setup for a psychologically wounded SRD character I don’t know what is.

Anyway, just my rambling.

Perhaps I will take a look at this “Tank” of which you speak.

[Nathan]

Gilbur was attacked, Geraden and Terisa weren't, they also weren't crippled, nor were they alone.

I agree with you about Geraden though, he does seem to have had exactly the kind of life that would cause him to become twisted and full of hate. Perhaps his younger years with his family in Domne affected him more than his (relatively) fewer years as an apt?

[burgs]

True - but hell, I was the kid on the playground that everyone made fun of in elementary school, and while I'd have little patience for elementary school bullies today, I wouldn't carry that intolerance over to the world in general. Certainly not in a violent fashion. (And of course I wouldn't beat up an elementary school bully today, at 39, because, well, they might beat me up.)

Some people turn out to be serial killers, others are just fine - even if raised in relatively similar circumstances.

[Avatar]

Perhaps I will take a look at this “Tank” of which you speak.

Mwhahaha...finally... Now we need Finn... Hile Troy's Think-Tank

Seriously though, the consistent quality of your arguments makes me think that you'll be an interesting participant in our discussions...if you can handle it. (Don't worry if you can't though...many would share your sentiments, it's only for the insane, suicidal, chronically curious, interested or argumentative. )

I think Nathan, (who's been conspicuously absent from the 'Tank lately... ) is on the right track about Geraden though. Admittedly, it's been a while since I've read them, but I must say I never thought of the excellent point you raised there Burgs.

Still, as Nathan points out, Geradens foundation is fundamentally different...sure, he's failed and failed, but he hasn't been hurt. He's been raised in an atmosphere of, not only complete familial love, but of devotion to Joyse, and more importantly perhaps, to Joyse's ideals.

As for Gilbur, we (I) don't know enough about his own origins to know what factors shaped his response. Of course, as you say, even similar circumstances may provoke very different responses.

--A

[Shuram Gudatetris]

I don't remember the chapter number or name, but one of my favorite scenes in the story is when Artagel goes to Lebbick after he brutalizes Saddith.

It is weird how my life around me often reflects what is happening in SRD books that I am reading at the time. I had just finally broke down the doors of the master bedroom that my wife and I shared together before she left me, when I read this chapter. He had done the same thing I had, walled off everything else and lived in a small corner of the living space, leaving all the memories locked away in unused rooms.

And you also find out that despite his lunacy, he was still really good inside, finally realized the truth around him, even when everyone else thought otherwise.

I should've wrote about this when I first read it. It was very powerful piece of literature.

[Rigel]

And you also find out that despite his lunacy, he was still really good inside, .

I never saw him as a lunatic... it always seemed obvious to me he was tortured by something. Seeing how he eventually treats Terisa and her companions, and how believed them over Eremis, and his loyalty to Joyce... it's enough to break your heart.

[Jody]

Lebbick was a man who saw his wife being tortured to the brink of death. And that tortured him as much, if not more, than if they had done it to him directly.
What made him somewhat sane afterwards was the Kings willingness to let him have his revenge and the apparent softness and love of his wife.

When she died he started his recline to insanity. The choices of his King made him slide even further down. Because of his love to his late wife, and the things done to her, he actually became more and more like her captures. He seemed to know that, but couldn´t stop himself. His mind, being held in check by his wife and his king, snapped. Even though he knew he was doing wrong he couldn´t stop it. Not untill it had had its release with his beating of Saddith.

As someone else wrote earlier acc to Gilbur - He was hurt badly in the cave, and he had absolutely no desire to be amongs other humans. But King Joyse´congery made him prisoner. The foundation for grualty was there before, and it only grew with his ´imprissonment´in Orison.

Gereaden chose to go to the congery. He didn´t acually have the great desire to become a master per se, he had a ´feeling´... As he often said, his feelings were allways wrong, but he had to folow them nontheless. He wasn´t worried about his missteps as such, more that he didn´t yet see why his feelings had brougt him to where he was. And Geraden has a natural happy and smiling nature, wich can´t be broken fully, not even when things are worst...

Or at least thats how I see them. Rigth of the top of my head...

[NotACockroach]

I've read the books twice, and just finished the audio version. Every read through I hate him more. I actually felt sorry for him the first read through, but knowing what was going on on subsequent reads I couldn't forgive him at all. At one point in the book he can't think of anything else but hurting Terisa. This was while the siege was starting. He was in a position to stop things like that. And while I hated Saddath, even she didn't deserve that. Him being in that position is one of the reasons I disliked King Joyse as well.

Pretty much every character SRD makes is flawed in some dramatic way. Lebbick's flaw made in a bad person. Those kind of actions can't be blamed on someone else. He did them.

[Avatar]

Welcome to the Watch NAC. Look around and join in. Read any other SRD books?

Go introduce yourself here:kevinswatch.ihugny.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=3880



I dunno...I still felt sorry for him...especially when he dies never knowing that Joyce was doing it deliberately.

Although...that might have made it worse...

--A

[Cord Hurn]

I both despise and pity Lebbick. This always makes for many confused impressions in me as a reader, and I've never resolved the conflict where he is concerned.

[Avatar]

Nah, I mostly pitied him. Driven to act that way, clinging desperately to whatever gave him meaning.

--A

[Shuram Gudatetris]

Every time I re-read these books, I pity him more and more. (A common sentiment.)

Is he the character that suffered the most from Joyse's gambit?

Complete random sporadic spewling of the mouth: is Norge so phlegmatic because he just witnessed the complete methodical destruction of his mentor and hero and leader, and he embraces a calm competence because the alternative would be anger and rage and resentment and defiance?The tickle at the back of my brain stem suggests there may be a topic on this already?

[Avatar]

How much of Norge do we see before Lebbick dies?

--A

[Cord Hurn]

The tickle at the back of my brain stem suggests there may be a topic on this already?

There is indeed such an existing topic, Shuram Gudatetris, and you can find it right here: Norge?

Please feel free to add your insights on Norge there, if you wish! The topic is missing your wisdom!

[Cord Hurn]

How much of Norge do we see before Lebbick dies?

--A

In truth, not much, Avatar. Norge is completely absent from The Mirror Of Her Dreams, and first appears in A Man Rides Through when Prince Kragen comes bringing Terisa and Geraden with him to demand a second audience with King Joyse.

Prince Kragen surveyed the hall; he scanned the balconies. The corner of his moustache lifted as if he were sneering. When he had completed his study of the king's defenses, he said clearly, "Remarkable. Is this the best audience King Joyse can produce? If an ambassador came to the Alend Monarch, at least a hundred nobles would commemorate the occasion, regardless of the hour--ar the urgency." A moment later, however, he remarked politely, "Most impressive, Castellan. For the first time, I truly believe that you do not intend to harm us. You would not need so many men--and so many witnesses--to procure our deaths.
"What do you intend? Where is King Joyse?"

Castellan Lebbick remained sitting. In a voice which resembled his laugh, he barked, "Norge!"

Slowly, almost casually, one of the captains stood and came to attention. He saluted the Castellan calmly. In fact, everything about him seemed calm. He sounded like he was talking in his sleep.
"My lord Castellan?"

"Norge, where is King Joyse?" demanded Lebbick.

Norge shrugged comfortably. "I spoke to him myself, my lord Castellan. I told him what you said. I even told him what the Prince said. He said, 'Then you'd better get the audience hall ready.'"

Apparently, the captain didn't think any other comment was necessary. He sat down.

After that, Norge is seen using his supreme skills with the short crossbow to kill off Gart's Apts one by one, until Gart and then Lebbick jump off the balcony onto the audience hall floor and Gart kills Lebbick.

[Avatar]

Which doesn't invalidate SD's suggestion of course. Still, not enough to make a call either way I think. Maybe he was just naturally calm though.

--A

[shadowbinding shoe]

Lebbick has dark urges. Joyce et al may be responsible for keeping in a position of strength but Lebbick's the one who wants to torture and rape the 'enemies of the kingdom'.

Unlike the rest of the cast, Lebbick wants to retaliate in kind to Alend (and Cadwal). He's not all that better than them.

How did he get to his position? Was it mandated by Joyce's mirror prophecy?

[Avatar]

Don't think so...it was because of the dedication he showed to Joyce's cause as far as I know.

--A

[shadowbinding shoe]

He didn't fit in with the rest of King Joyce's associates. He was a different kind of bird so I wondered why Joyce chose him to command his armies.