As I Was Going To St Ives ......

[peter]

I met a man with seven wives. The seven wives had seven cats, the seven cats had seven rats. The seven rats had seven flies and all were going to St Ives. Cats, rats, wives and flies how many were going to St Ives?

Now we all know the trick answer to this riddle - only one! [ie The speaker himself, because in order for him to meet them the others had to be going the other way.] but that is not what I'm about here. What I want has no trick to it; We are to assume that speaker, man wives, cats, rats and flies are indeed all off to St Ives [been there myself many times - highly recommend it], and further more that each wife had seven cats, each cat seven rats etc [rather than all the wives possessing seven cats in total, etc]. So with these points nailed down here's the question:- How many were going to St Ives? The proviso to doing this puzzle is this - that you do it in your head, without recourse to pencil and paper or calculator. You may record your answer on paper prior to posting it but may not check whether it is correct or not prior to posting!. Once having posted your answer you are not to post again indicating whether it was correct or not - we'll all know if it was!

I was once able [during a particularly bad bout of insomnia] to work out the speed of the earths motion around the sun to a fair approximation of the correct value - but this, I think, is a much harder ask.

Hope some of you will join in; don't expect this thread to fly fast - it'll take me for ever to come up with an answer and it goes without saying that I expect a Haruchai style level of honour in abiding by the rules!


[Maybe this should be in Mallory's Hashi? I put it here because it involved maths but only thought afterward that it may be wrongly sited. By all means shift it if you think it appropriate - and apologies for the inconvenience ]

[Vraith]

Hah...I can't hold that many digits in my head.
But the answer is 1+ 7 to the 4th, [I think, off the top of my heads---of which I now have 7, thanks dude. I'm gonna bill you for the hats. Maybe lots of hats---I might put them on the cats.]

[wayfriend]

In my head (honest) I get

Spoiler

2802

[Edit: My head is good.]

[Edit: Vraith, you are using a math shortcut that only works for powers of 2. It doesn't work for 7.]

[aTOMiC]

I possess neither the cranial capacity nor the opposable digits required to solve such a puzzle.

Good luck to you sapients who make the attempt.

Besides. You need Bruce Willis and Samuel L. Jackson to solve this riddle.

[Vraith]

In my head (honest) I get

Spoiler

2802

[Edit: My head is good.]

[Edit: Vraith, you are using a math shortcut that only works for powers of 2. It doesn't work for 7.]

Are you sure? I mean, I'll take your word for it if you tell me why---I haven't done anything but arithmetic for a long time, but:
There's the man. That's 1, set him aside...
He has seven wives. then:

Spoiler

each has cats= x7 [that's square=49]
each of those has rats= x7 [that's cube=343]
each has fleas= x7 [that's ^4=2401]

bring back the man for some reason---why would all those women and critters need a man? Maybe to carry things for them?
=

Spoiler

2402.

HAH!! NVM---I just saw what I did wrong. But I think that means you are 1 too many, unless I made another mistake.

[peter]

I haven't made the attempt yet ...... but given you guys responses it may be a case of over reach as a result of being flushed with pride due to my moon success? But I will at least have a preliminary go and see to what extent I can do it. All's I need is the right time, place and the men in white coats on standby with a restraining jacket and I'll be ready.

(No response from Hashi yet ......Is he, I wonder sat in a chair somewhere with eyes glazed gnashing his teeth )

[Avatar]

The one I know is "every wife had seven sacks, every sack had seven cats, and every cat had seven kits."

--A

[wayfriend]

Vraith,

Above you said, "the answer is 1+ 7 to the 4th". I assumed you were using the formula x^1 + x^2 + x^3 ... + x^n = x^(n+1) - 1. Which only works when x = 2. I see now that I am mistaken in my assumption, so jsut fugettit.

[Hashi Lebwohl]

7^3 = 343 (a fact I have had memorized since the sixth grade for reasons which defy description) so 7^4 = 343x7 = 2100 + 280 + 21 = 2401, which counts the wives, cats, rats, and flies, then add 1 for the man and 1 for the speaker to make 2403 people on the road at one time.

Incidentally it won't matter to me whether this thread belongs in the Loresraat or not--I am not the mod here.

[peter]

Incidentally it won't matter to me whether this thread belongs in the Loresraat or not--I am not the mod here.

Mwoahh-haa-haa-ha!

[Did your finger hover over the G Hashi before you typed the 'm' in mod? }

Actually, the other morning I sat in a chair and gave it some preliminary thinking - and seemed to make some respectable progress. I think it could be done, and I'm not sure it's as hard as it might at first appear [he said, pride coming before an easily predictable fall ]. I'm going to give it a go when I'm next truly bored until I feel the stitchings of my mental patchwork coming asunder, at which time for safety's sake I'll abandon the attempt.

[Av - my version was made up on the spot as I couldn't remember exactly how the original went, but yes, I do seem to remember sacks coming into the original version. I think however, given my already failing eyesight, I'd better not make things any worse by starting to think about sacks again. ]

[edit; just spotted that you wrote you are not the mod here Hashi, which renders the first part of my post all akilter; let's just pretend you are briefly and use it as evidence of the above mentioned visual impairment! ]

[Vraith]

7^3 = 343 (a fact I have had memorized since the sixth grade for reasons which defy description) so 7^4 = 343x7 = 2100 + 280 + 21 = 2401, which counts the wives, cats, rats, and flies, then add 1 for the man and 1 for the speaker to make 2403 people on the road at one time.

Incidentally it won't matter to me whether this thread belongs in the Loresraat or not--I am not the mod here.

No, you made one error for sure...the same one I did...and possibly another...the one I think WF did...---it will depend on peterpeterpuzzlemaker's judgement.

The first mistake is:

Spoiler

You do have to add at each step.
For instance, 7 wives and 7 cats is NOT 7^2. It is 7 [wives] + 49 [7^2 cats]. etc.

The second [possibly] is:

Spoiler

You added the narrator...but in peter's version it would seem that the narrator, having met them, is going the OTHER WAY. From, not to, St. Ives.

[wayfriend]

We are to assume that speaker, man wives, cats, rats and flies are indeed all off to St Ives

When Pete tells me to assume, I assume.

[Hashi Lebwohl]

No, you made one error for sure...the same one I did...and possibly another...the one I think WF did...---it will depend on peterpeterpuzzlemaker's judgement.

No worries. Many classic "puzzle riddles" are phrased in a confusing or slightly ambiguous manner.

[Did your finger hover over the G Hashi before you typed the 'm' in mod? }

No, I don't have that much of an ego....but it would have been a funny typo, for certain.

[peter]

As I see it the sum is essentially this:
1 +1 + 7 + (7x7) + (7x7x7) + (7x7x7x7) = x

Correct me if I'm wrong ......

( )

[peter]

2802? (Rhetorical)

[wayfriend]

Aye. But did you do it in your head?

[peter]

On my honour!

Spoiler

It turns out to be easier than at first it would seem; the only hard sum is the multiplication of 343 by 7 which takes a bit of mental jockeying. Then it's a matter of simple addition of the figures you have already worked out for the earlier multiples of seven. But {confession time}, I got it wrong half a dozen times before I got it right. I just kept repeating the process until I had established the necessary level of familiarity with the figures to be fairly sure I'd got it right. But on two occasions I almost posted the wrong figure; first for some reason I had it in my head that had to add in 21 in stead of 49 ......And on the second I forgot the final 7 but both times I just thought a final check was in order so avoided making a plonker of myself!

[Ur Dead]

all were going to St Ives.

All we going, the wives rats, flies and cats

Now we all know the trick answer to this riddle - only one! [ie The speaker himself, because in order for him to meet them the others had to be going the other way.]

Going to call an oops on that. As stated earlier.

It saids that all were going to St. Ives so the speaker was coming from St. Ives
He was coming from... OK?

The seven wives had seven cats, the seven cats had seven rats. The seven rats had seven flies

A little ambiguous on that line.. It doesn't say that each one have seven but saids that there were seven for each group.
So it can be conjectured that there are 7 wives, there are seven cats, there are seven rats and there are seven flies.

So 4(Groups) times 7(wives,cats,rats,flies) then add 1(husband) equal 29

and further more that each wife had seven cats, each cat seven rats etc [rather than all the wives possessing seven cats in total, etc]

Now going by that means.. is 7 x 7 x 7 x7 plus 1 = 2402

Can't forget the polygamy hubby. (presuming he's a Brit and under British law having more than 1 wife at a time is not good. Since it is a Brit who posed the question. but if he from another part of the world where that stuff is allowed then nevermind. If he was Yank then I wouldn't say he was henpecked but there might be times you see him in his yard scratching for feed)

[Avatar]

My version was more specific.

--A

[peter]

moving on.......

Can anyone come up with another similar mind bender that uses 'simple' math and knowledge that we all have to hand pretty much, so that sitting in a bath staring into space, one can put ones powers of memory and manipulation of numbers to the test?