The INCEL anathema

[Skyweir]

Hahaha .. oh dear ..

We both know I am rarely ever that

And we both know you dont believe that either.

[wayfriend]

I'm sorry. But anyone who thinks that the malignancy of INCEL is caused by the hot guy/rich guy getting the babes is half way to justifying their point of view.

No. These are people who are too narcissistic to believe that it's not someone else's fault, too cruel to resist inflicting pain on others for perceived sleights, too misogynistic to empathize with women, too gullible to realize that there's no conspiracy, and too stupid to see the obvious solution to their dilemmas.

Thank goodness Darwin deselects these people.

[Fist and Faith]

I certainly wasn't clear about it, but I wasn't addressing the actual topic of the thread. It was a spin-off discussion. Related to the topic, but it had gone it's own way. Sky was talking about what society expects from men, and how to change that. I'm saying it's not society. And it's not thinking. (I wasn't disputing "archaic") It's human nature. We have evolved intellectually, and used that intellect to do some amazing things. But we are still wired in certain ways, and, as a species, there has been very little progress along the path of thinking ourselves out of it.

[Skyweir]

I'm sorry. But anyone who thinks that the malignancy of INCEL is caused by the hot guy/rich guy getting the babes is half way to justifying their point of view.

No. These are people who are too narcissistic to believe that it's not someone else's fault, too cruel to resist inflicting pain on others for perceived sleights, too misogynistic to empathize with women, too gullible to realize that there's no conspiracy, and too stupid to see the obvious solution to their dilemmas.

Thank goodness Darwin deselects these people.

This ^^^^^^^^
Emphasis added .. because that is key.



Yes FF I did raise societal expectations re gender specific roles is an issue and one raised by the author of the attached article.

And do I posit whether there is value in changing what we expect from men and women. But in this topic .. particularly men.

For example not thinking the short guy stepping aside for the big one denotes weakness. Because it literally doesnt. etc.

[Wosbald]

+JMJ+

I'm sorry. But anyone who thinks that the malignancy of INCEL is caused by the hot guy/rich guy getting the babes is half way to justifying their point of view.

No. These are people who are too narcissistic to believe that it's not someone else's fault, too cruel to resist inflicting pain on others for perceived sleights, too misogynistic to empathize with women, too gullible to realize that there's no conspiracy, and too stupid to see the obvious solution to their dilemmas.

Thank goodness Darwin deselects these people.

This ^^^^^^^^
Emphasis added .. because that is key.



Yes FF I did raise societal expectations re gender specific roles is an issue and one raised by the author of the attached article.

And do I posit whether there is value in changing what we expect from men and women. But in this topic .. particularly men.

For example not thinking the short guy stepping aside for the big one denotes weakness. Because it literally doesnt. etc.

But mightn't you, thereby, fall under WFs interdict? Which is to say that, through positing a "revaluation of values" driving the Rich Guy/Hot Chick Paradigm as a way of defusing the "malignancy of INCEL", you are already "half way to justifying their point of view"?

[wayfriend]

We can (and should) adjust "societal expectations" as we need. For any gender. These don't always keep up with "the times". I have no issue on this point.

But women and men are always going to seek out preferable partners. We can change the yardstick that they use by changing "societal expectations", but this only changes the criteria that is used. They're still going to choose. And I am not sure it's wise to have it any other way.

So whatever problem INCEL represents, it is not going to be fixed in this way.

[Edit to add] The real problem here is that INCEL wants to take away womens' prerogative to choose a preferable partner, because women are not choosing them.

[Skyweir]

Yes ^^^^^^^

[Gaius Octavius]

So let me get this straight. INCEL is a group of sexually frustrated guys who want to get sex but can't get laid, so they take out their anger on women.

A couple thoughts...

Although this may sound controversial, I believe that it may be socially beneficial to legalize sex work (but regulate it in order to combat abuses such as trafficking and keep people safe). People need this kind of outlet as sex is literally a basal need according to Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs. People say that it is degrading (usually to women) for people to be prostitutes. However, there are literally people out there that prefer a career as a prostitute to anything else. They enjoy it and see it as a creative outlet. I read an article by a feminist (who happened to be a prostitute) who argued that for her, at least, being a sex worker allows her to teach men about how penetration isn't necessarily a guy on woman thing, but women can be sexually dominant as well.

Take for example the disabled. Being disabled automatically makes one seem less desirable to a large portion of the population. There has been a movement in recent years to provide sexual services (in the form of masturbation according to a BBC documentary I watched). If both parties consent, why should we care if money was exchanged? At least it gives those who are less fortunate than us a healthy outlet to take care of their needs. The whole disability rights movement perspective has changed my attitude towards prostitution.

Attitudes towards pornography have changed over the years. While it is generally still considered to be smut, it has become far more acceptable. Now it is considered perfectly normal as most of the population masturbates, and pornography is used as a masturbation aid. Sex shops have also become acceptable. People argue that the sex industry is degrading (especially to women), but people still choose to do that kind of work. No one forces them. They can make an enjoyable career out of it, and who are we to judge them for it? I think our attitude towards prostitution is a little bit dated, just like old attitudes towards pornography and sex toys.

Of course, these people (incel) are a problem. There's no excuse for violence against other people, but I also think that we as a society kind of create the conditions for this kind of stuff as well. The kind of people that gravitate towards this stuff possibly feel shame for not having sex. Pop culture constantly bombards them with ideals of what constitutes the perfect man or woman (which is always shallow). They feel like they are missing out on a proper life, and then they experience anomie as a result. They start to not feel human, then they slowly turn those feelings of inadequacy and inferiority to anger.

I also agree with Vraith's point about the underlying power structure.

[Skyweir]

Good post Nano. I agree 100 percent with your points on the subject of sex workers .. those that choose to work in this industry. The only time I would hesitate would be in abuses re human trafficking, where male or females are forced into prostitution.

The point though Nano, people CAN and DO pay for sex. Paying for sex is a perfectly viable way of having sex.

Secondly, although these guys express sexual frustration this isnt about sex. Its about impotence imo .. and identifying commonly perceived causes of their deemed emasculation .. ie personal rejection, conceiving that women deny sex to manipulate or punish, conceiving that their lack of financial, physical and emotional success is the fault of others .. including and primarily Chads and Staceys.

All their misconceived beliefs result in their individual and group self justification, hate narrative, violence against women and their loathing of those who are successful ie Chads

And its mightily fucked up

Women and Chads are identified as THEIR ENEMY.

[Gaius Octavius]

I am not familiar with the terms... what's a Stacey and Chad? It sounds like they are complete wusses. I'm not exactly a paragon of masculinity myself as I have an introverted personality, short stature and overweight although I do possess a mighty fine, strong cleft chin. I also have a good financial life ahead of me and will most likely end up being among top 1% of income. I'm also a smart ass, which most people interpret as dry wit.


Some things like weight and sociability can be changed, which I am making the effort to work on in order to improve. I do have a confession though: I am a 26 yo virgin and haven't dated since high school! At least I have had some sexual encounters but not full on intercourse. So I do understand how people can become disconnected and angry, though my reasons for the above would include focusing on my education and my religious upbringing makes me believe that sex is special so I'd rather lose it to a woman I care about. Still, I experience loneliness and depression. Sex and intimacy are vital to being happy.

[Vraith]

Of course, these people (incel) are a problem. There's no excuse for violence against other people, but I also think that we as a society kind of create the conditions for this kind of stuff as well.

We do allow [and sometimes even approve of] the conditions/circumstances that such things breed in.
And the group is a problem...
HOWEVER---I would like to point out to everyone that they ain't quite the problem they're being made out to be.
The so-called "Alphas" they're so jealous of [the hot/rich/tough] are committing far more rapes/sexual assaults/harassments/misogynistic acts than these guys ever have or will.
From an Incel view---and they aren't entirely wrong---that's just ANOTHER way the so-called "Alphas" get the breaks---they get better treated and get away with shit AGAIN that most people can't.

[Skyweir]

mmm .. well that is irrefutable logic V .. cos Incels would then inevitably add to the rape, assault tally of criminal statistics should they be convicted of such crimes

I see what you are saying .. youre saying these arent as a problem as those that execute criminal behaviour. Well Saint Elliot was only one member in what lets say 4000 .. which is small .. that killed 10 and injured 14 others, then an INCEL guy who killed 6 in California before shooting himself.

www.news.com.au/world/north-america/acc ... 3d61e3aca0

From a statistical perspective its minor .. but 2 acts of deadly violence out of a relatively small group becomes significant.

And there are undoubtedly as many female INCELs .. not part of the group obviously .. but who are involuntarily celibate .. interesting if there would be an equivalent group established of women with a narrative of violence against physically attractive men

My guess would be probably not ... but meh .. anythings possible, right

The INCEL movement that is regrettably gaining pace is probably at best a case study for what at worst is a vengeance trend targeting women and feminism .. and everything these people blame for their lack of success in life. And at best a case study that will aid in the deconstruction of the psychology.

And V as for their view .. maybe not entirely WRONG but not accurate either. Sure fortune favours the strong, good looking, etc .. but as much as we can all identify where that is the case .. we can also identify where it absolutely isnt. Attractive women marry ugly men all the time, physically attractive men marry physically unattractive women .. businesses do sometimes hire unattractive humans as well as attractive humans. There are ugly rich people and good looking rich people.

There hate is misguided and not based on reasonable premise. There reaction to their circumstances is not normal .. but normal is a subjective descriptor .. so I prefer reasonable .. which also possesses the subjectivity of perspective but .. one that there are objective tests that can be applied to it.

So on the face of it .. their views might arguably not be WRONG .. but they are not RIGHT and above all they are not reasonable responses to where they find themselves in their own lives.

All hate groups pose a threat not to be ignored .. as they disseminate hate

[Vraith]

And V as for their view .. maybe not entirely WRONG but not accurate either. Sure fortune favours the strong, good looking, etc .. but as much as we can all identify where that is the case .. we can also identify where it absolutely isnt. Attractive women marry ugly men all the time, physically attractive men marry physically unattractive women .. businesses do sometimes hire unattractive humans as well as attractive humans. There are ugly rich people and good looking rich people.

There hate is misguided and not based on reasonable premise. There reaction to their circumstances is not normal ..

All of that is true, or close enough anyway.
But it misses my point.
Which is that those who are powerful engage in more of the same terrible behaviors as this group that identifies as powerless.

That we, in general, play very strange blame, fear, and twisted/distorted accountability games.

Somewhat overlapping example [because the data is out there, if one wants to look], there's been a lot of attention paid to domestic violence/abuse among NFL players, and who gets punished, by whom, and how much.
But the evidence indicates that it happens less often amongst NFL players than the population as a whole.

You know where it happens far MORE than in the general population? Depending on who you believe, between 3 and 5 TIMES the rate?
Law enforcement.

[[Speculation, but I'd wager a lot---I'd bet domestic abuse and/or other kinds of sexual abuse/harassment rate is much higher even than that among the group "U.S. Billionaires."]]

[Skyweir]

Yes I am very very familiar with high rate of domestic violence in LE. In fact LE, and tbh Im surprised not also the military, but I dont know on that front.. but LE have higher rates of alcoholism, divorce .. domestic violence than any other career per the general population.

That is not to say there arent decent humans in LE that have healthy relationships and make good parents. The job is fraught with stressors .. Im not submitting that as an excuse.

I completely agree V .. domestic violence is a major concern, always has been .. perhaps since the dawn of time .. or perhaps since woman found a voice ... or started exercising their independence. And then how does that apply to male victims of domestic and sexual violence. Well similarly ... its a woman subjugating her ... male .. yes to a possessive degree.

All toxic, unhealthy paradigms to be subsumed in.

I am not suggesting that INCEL movement is a greater problem than all the social problems societies face today. Im saying it nevertheless is irrefutably one.

Im not going to suggest it is more important than any other either. That would be foolhardy and imbalanced.

Im saying that it is an indicator of a far more malignant psychology. I read an article, I think Cail linked, in possibly the metoo campaign thread .. in it the female author identified this trend .. towards anti female behaviour. She looked at the development of male identity and identified the progressive destabilising of that gender identity.

Ill see if I can find it and link it here. It is an interesting read .. but basically she concludes that men require a focussed outlet for the energy that naturally occurs in men. Im not 100 percent sold on that .. but as she explains that does become clearer.

The end of the article sums up that without an outlet .. that energy is refocused within. Within the man, within the home, work colleagues .. society.

This trend to exercising violence as an outlet .. and a deliberate identifying a scape goat .. woman, feminism etc.

I find absolutes unsatisfying and ineffective .. as they do not accord broadly. Not all this category are one way .. not all that category of thing are all another way.

As a cop this is also dangerous thinking .. as you take each case on its merits and as the facts dictate. However, I see a disturbing criminality arising from these trends .. INCEL being a manifestation of that changing way of thinking.

So that leads me to questioning the wisdoms of perpetuating strict gender distinctions and stereotypical gender roles. Questioning how we as a society think about gender.

How we still perpetuate myths .. which are for the most part unreasonable and unattainable.

Immediate assumptions like the big guy presents a dominant aspect over a shorter guy. In the 21C its now nothing more than a folly. We have moved beyond hunter, gatherer psychology and we do not physically have to fight for a mate. We no longer see men having to puff their chests out to demonstrate their strength and the value of that to the female and prospective offspring .. to attract a mate.

There are less reasons today to present oneself as a protector if you will .. as prospective mates are generally not in need of physical protection.

Now having said that .. setting aside my career and my independent intelligence .. I look up to my male. I feel safe with my male .. I regard him a superior intelligence in a range of subjects. And I highly value his attributes. These are nice to haves, and some have these qualities and attributes and others have different attributes but generally speaking they are not social imperatives any more.

I have many male friends, my partner being my very best friend. And wuthin my circle of friends I dont see evidence if this disturbing trend .. I would think intelligence has something to do with that.

Anyhoo got to go ... not sure if that was clear Will return when I can and fix where needed.

[Skyweir]

Hahaha back for a quick min

Just to clarify that although my partner might qualify as a Chad he possesses a great variety of non Chad qualities .. and thats the point .. there are no real Chads in every sense of the label. Humans are dichotomies trichotomies multichotomies LOL

It is the same with maleness .. men arent all one thing .. gender stereotypes are not only outdated but they do a significant disservice to men and the entire concept of maleness.

I dont fit well within the traditional concept of femaleness, though I personally find nurturing a very natural part of me .. but I have male friends that are also natural nurturers.

Further, I have always been fraught with a hero complex of sorts ... lol which has been a significant driver throughout my long life.

Trev .. or Rivenrock here, is affected by gender stereotyping .. in that he possesses an irritatingly strong internal drive to stoicism. That is admirable on its face, but means when hes not well I struggle to get him to the doctor and he feels he HAS to do EVERYTHING he commits to despite circumstances changing ie ill health etc.

In fact tomorrow we HAVE to drive 4 hours to Sydney to see a musical neither of us are interested in seeing because HE made a commitment 5 months ago to do it ... and wait for it by accepting the tickets that were given as a Xmas present lol

Men

[Gaius Octavius]

By the way, a thought just occurred to me after reading a BBC article about a guy that regrets waiting til he was 37 years old to start having sex and thought about the whole INCEL thing.

Why not simply create a dating service for virgins or people that just have trouble finding a partner to have sex with? I mean, I'm sure there are a lot of people out there that would be willing to screw someone or just about anyone. You just have to get them together. Plus, most of these type of people aren't even really ugly or have some major deformity or anything. They're just normal looking people with confidence issues for the most part.

For example, I'm also sure that there are gay men willing to perform oral sex or receive anal sex (although oral doesn't count for losing virginity but still) for a straight man. The straight man gets sex that he feels he's missing out on, and the gay man gets to screw another guy. It's a win-win.

Thoughts?

[Vraith]

Why not simply create a dating service for virgins or people that just have trouble finding a partner to have sex with?

For example, I'm also sure that there are gay men willing to perform oral sex or receive anal sex (although oral doesn't count for losing virginity but still) for a straight man. The straight man gets sex that he feels he's missing out on, and the gay man gets to screw another guy. It's a win-win.

Thoughts?

On the first---it would have to be free. AND serious privacy/encryption shit. Cuz it is just blackmail/harassment/15 minutes of fame waiting to happen. [[although I don't think these people's real problem is the thing they SAY the problem is]]

On the second...yea...no.

BUT it does remind me of a real thing that happened, I might have told this before...
To keep it short, I'll skip the set-up of why I was there and most other details...
BUT...some women rehearsing a girl-group thing while drinking heavily kept interrupting themselves to bitch about how they weren't getting laid nearly enough---and after about the 20th or so interruption, the pianist [a gay man friend of mine] slammed down the key-lid, spun around, lit a smoke and said "Jesus Christ---if you're that desperate I'll fuck you. Just say when. My dicks pretty good size, and I can do it even if I won't enjoy it. But it will be more fun than this shit."
[[[not verbatim...it's been a long-ass time. But still funny as hell.]]]

[Skyweir]

Ahhhh gay dudes

[Avatar]

Tend to agree that the real problem is not what they say the problem is.

--A

[Skyweir]

Some articles on toxic masculinity
https://www.google.com.au/amp/amp.abc.n ... le/9745760



https://www.salon.com/2015/06/12/toxic_ ... a_partner/



https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/ ... ally-toxic

https://www.google.com.au/amp/s/amp.smh ... 4zecq.html[/quote]