Are we living in a state of Societal Anomie?

[peter]

I found the following list under the heading of 'Societal Anomie' and it struck a chord. What do you think?

1. Breakdown of normative structure; rules/norms weak, unclear, indistinct.

2. No guidance for the individual, no limitations. Society lacks the regulatory constraints necessary to conroll the behaviour of it's members.

3. A product of change, rapid, uncontrolled and unpredictable.

4. Unleashes the "essence" of the individual - passion for unlimited growth, greed, unquenchable thirst which can only be contained within the boundaries of a stable social system.

5. Without boundaries, limits, norms, individual life (Self and Others) becomes meaningless, behaviour becomes uncontrollable ---> deviance.

[wayfriend]

I think every old person has thought that since the dawn of time. Except they didn't use the words 'societal anomie'. They said, "Everything's going to hell!" and "Kids these days don't know what's good for 'em!".



[Edit] okay, let me be constructive as this is the first reply.

Which is better, tight or loose?

Neither! Tight cultures have more order. They are more coordinated, more uniform, and people exhibit more self-control. Loose cultures are comparatively more disorganized and there is less self-control. But loose cultures are much more open - they're open to new ideas (more creative), to new people (they're less ethnocentric) and they are more open to change.

This is what I call the tight-loose trade-off; strengths in one group can be liabilities in others.

One problem - the "Goldilock's principle of tight-loose" - is that groups that get too extreme tend to have problems. They have higher suicide, lower happiness and more instability. Extremely tight groups are very oppressive but extremely loose groups that have little or no way to coordinate human behavior have what sociologists called anomie or total normlessness. It's best to not be too far in either direction.

[peter]

I think the first reply was, in its way the best one! It was a necessary reminder to me that I cannot but be skewed by my age in my perception of the world as it develops away from me. ( The SciAm quote, while stating the optimum condition doesn't I think answer the question as to whether we are moving too far down the road toward a 'societal free-for-all'). But for all of my age tinted view of our (western) society, such things as the rise of antisocial behaviour do matter, the loss of the (protestant) work ethic does impact upon the wider society, the breakdown of the 'stable' family unit is a factor in how we develop. Our rise from a state of ignorance and squalour was hard won (if it was ever completely achieved at all) and our victories precarious; it would be a shame to slip down (as from a mountain summit) in perhaps a different direction from whence we came, but downward nevertheless.

[Avatar]

Good answer WF.

Change is ongoing, but we haven't managed to destroy ourselves yet...

--A

[wayfriend]

peter, I attempted to show in my post-reply that weaknesses are also strengths. Creativity goes hand in hand with anti-social behavior - every great artist has been called a miscreant. Fluid family units create people with less mental rigidity. The puritan work ethic arises from existential crises which no longer rule us. This is all a two-sides-of-one-coin thing, and it depends on how you choose to look at it.

In my opinion, it doesn't matter if we have "slipped" so much as whether we can climb back up when the need arises. Until then, enjoy running naked through the streets high on life while the old men on the porches shake their fists at you.

[Skyweir]

Kudos Wayfriend .. absolutely right .. outstanding replies .. both.

I add my support for seizing life with both hands and rejoicing in the black, the white and the various shades of grey between

[peter]

As do I Sky - the problem is I see little evidence of it. Although not universal, where I come from there appears to be, amongst the young in particular, a lowering of aspiration, an ennui born of .....?????...... I don't know what, that seems to be quashing the natural vivacity of people, the drive as Wayfriend says to 'run naked through the streets'. Is it social media sucking away people's spirit? Is it years of austerity and uncertainty? Look at Thomas Cole's series of paintings The Course of Empire, Gibbon's Decline and Fall - we have I think, been here before.
Yesterday I took a visit to the shops, and walking along with many others across our towns 'piazza', I passed two people in conversation, a little separated so they were speaking quite loudly and audibly to other passers by. Their conversation was peppered with expletives, f'ing this and f'ing that, not in anger or chagrin - just as expression. There were children, elderly, all sorts within hearing - but no matter. There was no constraint. This is no isolated incident - I experience it daily in the shop. I sell basket after basket of pop, chocolate and crisps to individuals whose weight is killing them, who could not run naked through the streets if an axe wielding madman was chasing them let alone because of the exuberant joy of life! I see small evidence in reality of people seizing life by the hands and running with it; out there amongst it, it seems much more like an apathy, a surfeit that has .......

Enough!

[wayfriend]

How about this: when cell phones were first adopted in large numbers, you couldn't escape people blathering away on their phones. A lot of people found that very irritating - I don't think I need to paint a picture. However, flash forward a decade, and texting had became preeminent. In fact, calling people is now considered declasse and downright rude by those folk whose phone is now a body part.

Take that how you like, but i think it shows that shifts happen in both directions. Or, at least, what goes around comes around.

Yes, curse words are no longer avoided as they were in the old days, and people's vocabularies seem to stop growing once they learn them. But, in a way, isn't it good that we no longer arbitrarily attach a social stigma to certain words? When cursing ceases to be shocking, people will cease to curse, you can take that to the bank.

Take that how you like, but I think it shows that there's more than one side to these things, and maybe "old fart" should not always be your go-to response.

[peter]

Old fart is not my go to response Wayfriend - I live there!

I stopped posting yesterday because of a sudden I realized that this thread was probably saying more about me than it was about society. And who wants their deep soul opened up for our scrutiny, even on a place as forgiving as The Watch!

[Ur Dead]

et tu Peter.

Before the cock crows for the third time you will deny three times being
an "old fart"

[peter]

Just come back from my three days in London, where my age related curmudgeonliness (there's another word beginning with c that some people might consider more appropriate a descriptor for me but I'm way too polite to use it here ) was illuminated in bas relief for all to see! Surrounded by the young and beautiful, the rich and cultured, like Yeats' 'rough beast, but one whose time had (rather than coming) long since passed, I sloughed my way through a world that alas no longer has much time for the likes of me - and no bad thing!

[Ur Dead]

Them are some mighty fine words there Peter.
Here living in the flatlands near the foothills of the Appalachian Mountains.
I dwell on such elegant British wisdom professed by a gentile British gent.
And I wonder:
What the hell did he say?

[Lazy Luke]

What the hell did he say?

sh...webbed feet, the Big Smoke can put a zap on them

[Avatar]

I do love The Second Coming. Probably my favourite Yeats poem, with "An Irish Airman..." a close second.

--A