Yes, Dune again.

[wayfriend]

Just thinking about it a bit more, trying to express clearly what are my vague thoughts.

Some movies try to be pop culture sensations. Avengers. Fast and Furious.
And some movies try to be significant and serious. Watchmen. Arrival. Interstellar.

Ender's Game tried to be a pop culture sensation based on a significant and serious book. I am hoping this Dune isn't trying to be a pop culture sensation. However, casting like Chalomet and Zendaya and Momoa leave me concerned.

There are very, very few examples of movies based on significant and serious books that turned into significant and serious movies that were also pop culture sensations. The Lord of the Rings. Blade Runner.

[peter]

Yes, I get you Wayfriend; probably unfairly, but it's difficult to see Jason Momoa turning in a heavyweight performance in anything other than a muscle-bound sort of a way. And the casting 'ethos' maybe gives some clues as to the audience they are trying to appeal to. Agreed - misgivings duly felt. Let's hope they prove them to be unfounded.

[Avatar]

Eh, I think he can pull off Duncan Idaho, especially in the original book. Later "versions" of Idaho perhaps not as well, but I doubt we're going to get all God Emperor...

See, I didn't even know that this was going to be a 2-part effort (and no Peter, the David Lynch movie was a monstrosity with perhaps the exception of ol' Sting himself who did a credible Feyd ) but I'm actually glad that they're not going to try cram it all into a single movie, even if it is 3 hours. (Oh, I see it's 155 mins.)

Premiere apparently well received.

Hmmm, seems part 1 ends with Paul's fight against Jamis...however, (and I'm already annoyed by this), the thing I just read calls Jamis the "leader" of the Fremen which obviously he was not. Maybe the piece is just wrong...I hope...

Oh well, can't be worse than David "killing word" Lynch so...

(And I never bothered with the Enders Game movie.)

--A

[peter]

C'mon Av - Mulholland Drive, The Elephant Man, Eraserhead - cut the guy some slack!

(Not everyone's cup of tea I know though.)

[Avatar]

Lost Highways is the one that sticks for me. But no, I don't dispute his talents per se. He just fell prey to the Dune curse is all.

At least he actually made his version...imagine what Dali's would have been like.

--A

[peter]

Just checked it out Av and I don't think I've seen it.

Apparently it was the first of a three part 'series' of which Mulholland Drive and Inland Empire were the two follow ups. I've seen both of the latter, of which Mulholland Drive I loved (I've probably seen it five times) and Inland Empire totally lost me.

I'll see if any of the streaming services are offering it and if so (when I feel mentally robust enough for an evening of David Lynch ) give it a spin.

[Avatar]

Dune: science fiction’s answer to Lord of the Rings

--A

[wayfriend]

when Frank saw Star Wars he “picked out 16 points of what he called ‘absolute identity’ between his book and the movie, enough to make him livid”.

Well, Tatooine is a desert planet. So 1.
2. There's an emperor.

On top of this, Paul’s rise, to put it mildly, is no positive thing, and Villeneuve, asked about the white saviour trope on his press tour for the film release, made this point. “It’s a critique of that. It’s not a celebration of a saviour,” he said. “It’s a criticism of the idea of a saviour, of someone that will come and tell another population how to be, what to believe. It’s not a condemnation, but a criticism.”

I don't think many people understand that Herbert didn't envision Paul entirely as a hero in Dune. Yes, he's a sympathetic character. But he's also a political response which, for all it is inevitable, isn't good for humankind. Paul himself regrets what he has become. It isn't until God Emperor unfolds that we understand how Leto II cured the human passion for tyrants which Paul embodied.

It's hard to see how any movie adaptation would not take the easier course - Paul Atreides Gets His Revenge.

[Zarathustra]

Wait, so white saviors are now considered a bad thing in mainstream cultural criticism? Then why do the Democrats want to be the white saviors? Seems the messaging is off. They need to get their talking points straight. Are white saviors bad, or not? Why do we have to defend Herbert and the character Paul as not really talking about being a savior? And if it is bad, then why doesn't this point ever stick to the real world people who act like white saviors, instead of saving it for fictional characters?

Does this mean that Lincoln was actually the bad guy in our own history? Or what about The Savior? Is Jesus a racist, too? Can he legitimately save people of races other than his own? When did this idea become a bad thing?

Dem outrage/offense is a confusing, fickle, self-contradictory thing.

I'm going to paste this into the Tank if anyone wants to discuss further there.

[peter]

Why must even a story like Dune be viewed through the spectacles of historical and cultural baggage? We've had it with The Lord of the Rings, (Tolkien's story was a thinly veiled depiction of good white elves vs bad black orcs apparently), and countless other works. It gets tiresome. Dune is a good story, yes perhaps written in a time when things were seen differently - but see it or read it for what it is, a piece of storytelling. The Guardian is as a newspaper, bang at the center of the pc/woke agenda to change the universe, to make us all guilty for things that were done before we were born. They would suck the joy out of anything in pursuit of their liberal elitist agenda. I now disregard virtually everything they have to say on any subject.

[Avatar]

Agreed. Also of course, Jesus wasn't white. Anyway, it's not that white saviours are bad, it's that the trope is insulting.

Yeah, I can't be bothered applying political thinking to stories. It's a story...people just view it through the lens of their own preoccupation.

And personally speaking, I think God-Emperor was probably the best of all the Dune books. It's where the story gets really mind-blowing.

--A

[wayfriend]

And personally speaking, I think God-Emperor was probably the best of all the Dune books. It's where the story gets really mind-blowing.

I don't think the story is actually finished until we get GEoD. Everything leads up to it.

Also, I never quite understood the need for the stories that come after, either. So there you go.

[Wosbald]

+JMJ+

And personally speaking, I think God-Emperor was probably the best of all the Dune books. It's where the story gets really mind-blowing.

I don't think the story is actually finished until we get GEoD. Everything leads up to it.

Also, I never quite understood the need for the stories that come after, either. So there you go.

Interesting.

I've always said that everything beyond the first book is superfluous. Not that the later books are poorly written or wholly unworthy of the read, but simply inessential.

When it comes to Dune, I guess I'm a "one & done" kind-of-guy.

[wayfriend]

I don't think you're wrong, Wos. Certainly Dune is itself a complete story. But it's a story about a man, within a larger story about mankind.

The next two books seemed superfluous to me as well. But to me it's all connecting material setting up God Emporer. And that book is truly great.

BTW, I have read a LOT and a LOT of Frank Herbert outside of the Duniverse. After a while, you kinda get a feeling for what he's really after. The Pandora series, The White Plague, Jorj X. McKie saboteur extraordinary ... they all have a common theme. Which is nothing less than finding mankind's best scientific/political/moral/ecological destiny.

------

But what I really came here to say was: here's a story about the new movie!

Hollywood keeps retelling 'Dune.' Why this latest adaptation may be the one that takes off

[Avatar]

White Plague was good, Hellstrom's Hive is utterly brilliant.

And I also feel where Wos is coming from there...I do love Dune by itself too.

In fact, my Dune reading order is usually Dune, then God-Emperor, and that's it.

Like WF I am "meh" about the last two, and I don't really like "Children Of..." either, while being indifferent to "Messiah."

(Also never bothered with either the prequels or Hunters and Sandworms.)

--A

[peter]

I've only ever read Dune. I picked up Dune Messiah the other day, and am much looking forward to reading it (but have decided to re-read Dune before doing so. I'm encouraged to hear your good feelings about God Emperor - that will give me cause to continue with the works.

[dlbpharmd]

I gotta say, the film was better than I thought it would be. I'm a huge fan of the SciFi channel miniseries from about 20 years ago, and this film is closer to that than the 1984 film (which is good.)

I think casting Timothy Chalamet as a bad choice, otherwise casting is superb.

The reviews have been solid, and from what I've read, the producers have a realistic expectation on how much the film is going to earn, especially in light of the decision to stream it on HBO (which is how I watched it this weekend.) I certainly hope the sequel gets the green light.

[wayfriend]

Looks like opening weekend was good enough. Dune II was green-lighted.

I saw it on Monday evening. As DLB says, it was better than I thought it would be. In fact, I was so delighted that it was better than I thought it would be that I thoroughly enjoyed it. Critical thoughts came later, but not during the movie.

As expected, there was a lot of exposition that was tightly compressed. They actually handled this quite brilliantly, which was one of the surprises. Most importantly, it was not bogged down by voiceovers.

Zimmer's music was brilliant. They actually handled the Fremen quite well. All in all, it was far less stodgey than the trailers might have you believe.

Let me close with a recent quote I came across. It touches on Paul being a hero.

"This project is, as the book is, a tragedy," Villeneuve argued. "It's really the story of a young man that will have the burden of a terrible religious heritage." For his tragic figurehead Villeneuve chose Timothée Chalamet, the only actor the director considered. "Timothée has the necessary maturity to bring this character to life, combined with beautiful youth that he brings," said Villeneuve. "Timothée looks really young and at the same time has an old soul, and also has the charisma of a rock star -- that will be necessary later on in part two."

I totally agree with the directors interpretation of the story here. (Chalamet is still an open question.)

[peter]

I agree with wayfriend and dlbpharmed. The film was a creditable attempt at getting really difficult book (to film) onto celluloid. The young fremen actress has not had sufficient screen time yet for us to make a call on her suitability for this role. Rebecca Ferguson's Lady Jessica I found a little over-weak. I don't remember her being that frightened from the book; in a dilemma certainly, balancing her loyalty to Paul with her responsibilities to her order, but I recall her as being a pretty strong character, not the frightened tearful portrayal we had here. This however, was not a problem. Javier Bardem was - well - as you'd expect in his role; standard character for him, but he's so good at it that it always works. Skarsgard's Baron Harkonen was suitably bloated and vicious (I loved it when the guards found him after.....well, that would be telling).

The crunch for this production will come in the second half (which hopefully, the receipt tally from the first will see undertaken - no guarantees here). The first half has pulled it off with no problems - neither too long nor too short, it kept one engaged while still retaining the slow almost dreamlike quality of the story. Also agreed that the sound direction and Zimmer's score were fundamental in holding the whole thing together. And then there were the worms......!

Nice one. Can't wait for round two!

[Damelon]

I saw Dune yesterday and enjoyed it. I last read it probably about the time the movie with Sting appeared. Which was good as I couldn't recall the whole plot of the book and couldn't complain much if the film had diverged a whole lot from it. I don't think that it did though.

I'll have to dig through the boxes in the garage and see if I can find my old copy.