What if Covenant was wrong?

[Ryzel]

A lot of good points here which I will not bother to address in turn as I feel that it would be kind of redundant to address peoples responses to my own points earlier (at least more than a few times).

To return to the points of the entire thread the basic question here at least is no whether or not Foul was bound by the laws of the land or creation or whether or not it was possible to kill him.

My point is that as living and dying is defined by laws in the Land Foul could only be killed if he was subject to those laws. We have debated the point of his relationship to these laws at some length without (in my opinion) coming to any conclusions, but this is only because we know to little about the physics (laws) of the Land in the first place and we know nothing about how Fouls relationship to these laws works.

What we know about these things is that Covenant, the one person intimately familiar with the white gold and the wild magic, did not believe that he could have killed Foul with it. We do not know if he means that he could not (meta)-physically have killed Foul, or just that it would have no meaning to do that.

We know that several people in the chronicles believed that he should have killed Foul when he had the chance but none of these have shown themselves to be knowledgeable enough about LF earlier for us to think that they should know better than Covenant in this matter.

What we do know about LF and TC suggests that LF was not worried by being killed by the wild magic. In TPTP he mocks TC to try to kill him with it, and whether or not he was really mad or not in WGW he did give TC the means to unlock the full power of the white gold and I do not feel that he could have done that if he had been worried that he might be killed by it.

In conclusion: I chose to believe Covenant in this matter. In spite of everyone else saying something else.

[Ryzel]

The Creator's opposite is Foul. So Foul's nature is opposed to the Laws that the Creator set in place. Now, Foul was a Lord. I assume this means he could use the Earthpower and Kevin's Lore. It not, why was he a Lord? He had the strength to use the Earthpower, even though its Law was probably fighting him the whole time. But I imagine it's an entirely different matter to use the very embodiment of that Law.

However, your idea that Foul could not use the laws without playing by them is compelling. The way you worded it there makes me think about your theory in a new light.

In my last post I kind of put the closing on my arguments about the killing of LF, but this is another point entirely and I jump into the fray once more.

First: My point that LF was not capable of using the SOL because he is not subject to the laws and thus cannot touch them personally is just pure speculation but I feel it is just as valid as most other theories. What could otherwise be the reason why the staff was not apt for his control? Now you suggest that LF's nature was opposed to the laws but that he was still subject to them. I am willing to accept that as just as valid a theory. And there is the possibility then, that LF was not unable to use the SOL, he just did not want to. Or possibly the staff rejected his touch. If you have read Daughter of Regals you will see that this kind of division between objects of power are used there. There only creatures which are "real" can touch the stone, but people who are merely mageborn can touch the "real" wood of Ryzels sceptre. We might be dealing with the same kind of antipathy between LF and the SOL, in which either of them repels the other.

Second: Although we always assume that LF can use earthpower because he was a member of the council of Lords under Kevin we have no actual knowledge of him having done so. We know that Kevin was a master of earthpower because all lore in 1C comes from him, but that does not necessarily mean that LF was a member of the council of lords as a wielder of earthpower. He might very well have joined them as another kind of thaumaturge. We know that such people exist because of Kasreyn of the Gyre, and there is no reason to believe that Kevin would exclude people from his council because they did not wield earthpower like him.

[Fist and Faith]

What we know about these things is that Covenant, the one person intimately familiar with the white gold and the wild magic, did not believe that he could have killed Foul with it.

<I>Great</I> point! Once the wild magic is triggered, Covenant always seems to know how to use it, what it's capable of. Like with Foul and the Stone. Foul used it best when in direct contact, but he could still use it when not touching it, though to a lesser degree. Covenant seemed to know this, and he knew <I>how</I> to put a barrier between the two so that Foul couldn't use it to any degree. He didn't just blast Foul away from it, then say, "Hellfire! I wish he wasn't able to use it from a distance!" Lots of other examples. It might be pretty dangerous to have all that power, and have no idea of what it can do or how to use it. Maybe it automatically comes with such knowledge.

[KaosArcana]

What we know about these things is that Covenant, the one person intimately familiar with the white gold and the wild magic, did not believe that he could have killed Foul with it.
Great point! Once the wild magic is triggered, Covenant always seems to know how to use it, what it's capable of. Like with Foul and the Stone. Foul used it best when in direct contact, but he could still use it when not touching it, though to a lesser degree. Covenant seemed to know this, and he knew how to put a barrier between the two so that Foul couldn't use it to any degree. He didn't just blast Foul away from it, then say, "Hellfire! I wish he wasn't able to use it from a distance!" Lots of other examples. It might be pretty dangerous to have all that power, and have no idea of what it can do or how to use it. Maybe it automatically comes with such knowledge.

The problem is that so much of _White Gold Wielder_ is written from
Linden's viewpoint rather than Covenant's, so I'm not sure that he
knows any more about the white gold than anyone else.

Linden was able to use the power of Covenant's ring from a
distance, as well ... even without him giving permission in the
last book. She also knew how to use it to create the new Staff
of Law.

Even Hile Troy knew how to use the ring to start blasting away the
moment Covenant gave it to him.

[Tohrm]

There are many good points that have been brought up within this melding of the minds. My personal view is that TC could not have destroyed Foul. That if he had attempted it, the AoT would have been destroyed, the land would have been destroyed with it, and Foul would have been able to go to war against the creator.
Yes, I know this theory has been expounded upon by many others. I am simply adding my input and my personal opinion. But the point I am trying to bring up is this: Why didn't TC attempt to fasion a prison for Foul? One that would be a whole lot more confining to him than the AoT? One that could not be broken except through the use of the wild magic for it was with wild magic that it was forged?
In fact, would the imprisoning have created a new 'bane' that would have been stuck within the land? Look at the evil that the illearth stone was capable of. We have seen that within the land the merging of entities into an item of power, ie. the collossus of the fall and the new SoL. Could TC have done the same to Foul, and by doing thus could he have placed him in such a place that any machinations of his would have been totally ineffectual?

[I'm Murrin]

I personally have come to the conclusion that the Despiser cannot be destroyed. Throughout the series one of the main points was contradiction - as in, there can be no hope without despair, no happiness without pain, and no Creator without the Despiser.

Think of it this way - Just as the old kingdom in the south was reaching the peak of it's prosperity, Samadi Sheol surfaces and takes control of the king, causing the war which resulted in the discovery of the Earthpower - at this point Foul and his servants vanished for a while - just as the Land was suffering from the devastating effects of the war.
The Council of Lords was formed, and over the centuries peace returned - and at it's very peak, the height of the rule of the Land's most powerful servant of the Earthpower, Kevin, the Grey Slayer returns in the guise of a Lord - he manipulates and betrays, and Kevin destroys everything in despair. The land is all but destroyed, and once again Foul dissappears.
Then, 500 years later people return to the land, and just as things begin to go well and the Staff of Law is found again, Foul returns. He is eventually defeated by Covenant, but in the conflict the Earthpower was weakened also.
As the Lord begin to find new powers and become stronger and stronger, so does Foul, corrupting the Earthpower with his prescence, eventually causing the Sunbane.

Looking at that, a pattern is shown - every time peace and hope returns to the land, so does the Despiser to challenge it. As long as there is hope, there is despite - "There is hope in contradiction".
The Despiser is eternal.

[Nerdanel]

By the way, has anyone wondered if the Law of the Sea indeed got broken by Lord Foul before the Second Chronicles? The heroes had quite a lot of sea trouble on their search for the One Tree. It would have been colossal bad luck if it had been only random chance...

I find the breaking and not-breaking of various laws an interesting subject. As I understand it, any law could be broken if enough power was thrown against it to break it once and after that it stayed broken for everyone. I suspect the amount of power required depended on the particular law and in addition the power used must have not been subject to that law. For example the Illearth Stone was not a thing of the sea and could be used to break the Law of the Sea, but anything of Earth could not break the Arch of Time. I think Earthblood was not subject to any of the laws more minor than the Big One, and the breaking of the Law of Life depended crucially on Hile Troy being from the outside.

I wonder if Lord Foul has ever drank Earthblood. He surely knows of it. I can think of three options.

a) Yes, in the far past. The result is later considered simply part of the way the things have always been.
b) No, he's wary of unintended consequences and/or wants to save the unique opportunity for later.
c) No, Earthblood mixes badly with him, like the Staff of Law.

I think Lord Foul can be killed as a person but Despite cannot. We don't even know if Foul used to be a person outside Earth. At that, we don't know if the Creator could really be called a person when he is not incarnated as a beggar.

[Birinair]

I is important not to confuse earthpower and the law, earthpower operates within the law. Foul is able to use earthpower as long as he obeys the rules that govern it, we have no clues that he ever used it for despite, the great clue however is that he needed Kevin to invoke the RoD in order to use the earthpower for ill. Can Foul die, it is well to remember that Foul is two things, the concept of despite, and the embodiment of the opposition to the creators will. If the law is the creators set of rules for his creation, then Foul falls outside of those rules because he was not created nor was he intended to be part of the universe in which he is imprisoned.

SOME CONCLUSIONS AND QUESTIONS

(1) If Foul is a part of the creator, as is one intepretation of the legends, then he cannot die whilst the creator lives, thus he cannot die at all unless the creator dies QUAERRE: can the creation exist after the creator dies? Can the creator die?
(2) If he is a being from outside then he cannot die from anything created within the law, or within the land.
(3) Wild magic is from without the creation, but only gains its power from elements within the creation, IS IT SUBJECT TO THE LAW IN THE SENSE THAT WHILST IT TRANSCENDS THE LAW IT IS POWERED BY IT?
(4) If it is subject to the law then Foul cannot die, if it is not then he can.

My view is that Donaldson was thinking of sequels! Cynic or what!!!!

[KaosArcana]

Birinair:

SOME CONCLUSIONS AND QUESTIONS

(1) If Foul is a part of the creator, as is one intepretation of the legends, then he cannot die whilst the creator lives, thus he cannot die at all unless the creator dies QUAERRE: can the creation exist after the creator dies? Can the creator die?

I bet the Creator dies in the Last Chronicles. Maybe Linden's son
is intended to somehow inherit the mantle to preserve the Land? If
Linden's son is also Covenant's as some people think, maybe Roger
will take on the role of the Despiser.


I think that a Creation can endure after the death of its Creator, but
I'm not totally sure. The Earth isn't actively powered by the Creator,
it seems ... on the other hand, didn't it seem that the Creator was
somehow infected by the Sunbane when Linden saved his life? His
breath was really horrible ... so horrible that Linden almost gagged...
a visible symptom of the Sunbane?

[dukkha]

By the way, has anyone wondered if the Law of the Sea indeed got broken by Lord Foul before the Second Chronicles? The heroes had quite a lot of sea trouble on their search for the One Tree. It would have been colossal bad luck if it had been only random chance...

This thread makes my head hurt.

But I will say that I don't think Lord Foul broke the "Law of the Sea." Linden rarely saw Despite in the various things the Search went through. When you consider how she responded to the Raver, I would think that she would have responded similarly to the various storms and problems that beset them at sea.

Oof. You guys have all thought about this stuff way more than I have. But: I don't think TC could kill LF, at least without killing the creator as well. If you buy the interpretation that the creator "cast LF down to the Land" (the Silmarillon interpretation!), I would think this presumes that the creator himself couldn't kill LF, or at the very least viewed his death as more dangerous than his existence. If you buy the interpretation that LF is a necessary part of the creator, you presumably can't kill the one without the other. Perhaps this is where the Third Chronicles will lead -- killing the creator -- but I can't imagine how he'll explain that.

Either way, I don't see TC killing LF without destroying not merely the Land but the entire universe.

[Skyweir]

It is late and well past my bedtime .. so I apologise for not wading through this entire thread .. but just a few things caught my attention.

Can Foul die, it is well to remember that Foul is two things, the concept of despite, and the embodiment of the opposition to the creators will.

I have to question these 2 assertions ..

1. the concept of despite .. well I guess we cant really argue with that one. He is known as despite and it would seem that he is. but I would prefer this construction; Foul:the embodiment of despite.

2. 'the embodiment of the opposition to the creators will'. If Foul was the embodiment of the Creator's will, then surely he would realise his will .. fulfill it. They would act in concert. I cannot see how Foul is the embodiment of the Creator's will. To me this is not a sound assertion and entirely baseless. There is nothing in the chronicles that I can recall where Foul has embodied the stated will of the Creator.

Also this proposition infers that the Creator and Foul have a similar relationship as the Christian notion of the Diety and his adversary - Satan. But I do not believe that there exists this relationship between Foul and the Creator.

Foul is not the same entity as the Creator .. nor do I believe him to be his alter ego .. His Arch Nemesis definitely. But not the darker side of his personality imho. Foul I always understood .. was akin to the Creator's brother .. and he was not CAST DOWN from his eternal dwelling place .. as Satan and his angels are reputed to have been ..

There are significant differences between the two characters. Foul is a seperate and unique being .. distinct from the Creator .. The Creator speaks of him as his enemy.

In: TPTP ch 21

"Had my enemy gained the white wild magic gold, he would have unloosed himself from the Earth - destroyed it so that he might hurl himself against me ... Only a free man could hope to stand against my enemy, hope to preserve the Earth."

The Creator speaks to TC of a distinct personage who if escaped the bounds of the Earth .. would destroy the earth and him.

I cant accept the theory that the Creator would be under threat from himself .. and that he went to such extraordinary lengths to protect himself and his creation from an enemy within.

If the law is the creators set of rules for his creation, then Foul falls outside of those rules because he was not created nor was he intended to be part of the universe in which he is imprisoned.

I dont believe the Law is the Creator's set of rules .. but the rules that govern the existence of the earth within the Universe .. natural law. Law that Kevin was able to elicit and utilise. Law exists in the natural order of the earth .. earthpower .. it exists and can be utilised by those who exercise it .. I think some law is beyond even the creator's scope to create .. for example .. if the Creator created the law that governs the Earth of his making .. then surely he could use that same law to remedy the problem caused by Foul's unexpected presence. But even the Creator himself is bound by the Law.

Now thats interesting isnt it? Well it is to me clearly

SOME CONCLUSIONS AND QUESTIONS

(1) If Foul is a part of the creator, as is one intepretation of the legends, then he cannot die whilst the creator lives, thus he cannot die at all unless the creator dies QUAERRE: can the creation exist after the creator dies? Can the creator die?

As I have already touched upon, I do not believe they are a part of each other. Was this asserted somewhere in the chronicles that I may not recollect? I do not think that Foul can die. I think he can be rendered insubstantial as he was in the chronicles. Maybe the Creator can extinguish him .. I do not know. I guess if the creator feared that Foul could destroy him .. then Foul too must be able to be destroyed. How that could happen is still a mystery.

(2) If he is a being from outside then he cannot die from anything created within the law, or within the land.

Cannot die? I am still not sure about that. Will go and think some more.

(3) Wild magic is from without the creation, but only gains its power from elements within the creation, IS IT SUBJECT TO THE LAW IN THE SENSE THAT WHILST IT TRANSCENDS THE LAW IT IS POWERED BY IT?

The Law? Kevin's Law? White magic transcends Kevin's law I think. I do not think white gold is subject to kevins law .. and thats one of the reasons the Creator had to seek his remedy from outside of his creation I think.

(4) If it is subject to the law then Foul cannot die, if it is not then he can.

Well I dont think white gold magiks are subject to the law .. whatever the law we maybe referring to is. Whether it be Kevin's Law .. or the law by which earthpower is released and exercised ~ kevins law

I do not understand why if the wild magic is not subject to the law Foul cant die .. apart from the fact that it is really difficult to kill an immortal being.

And if its not subject to the law .. then wouldnt Foul be dead? And he is not .. So then white gold wild magic can defeat Foul and render him impotent in a real terms .. but so far it hasnt managed to bring about his demise.

So I dont know if this question is an appropriate question. What can kill Foul? white magic? Well not so far. Can it defeat him? Sure .. it has on a several occassions. So what will kill Foul? I have no idea but maybe it is something more than white gold magic.

I dont recall a Law of the Sea .. does anyone have a chapter reference to this term that I can use to refresh my failing memory??

[I'm Murrin]

One thing we have to remember is the unusual contradictions concerning the worlds creation - Whereas the main focus is on there being the Creator, and his battle against the despiser, and casting him down, we are also told the story of the Worm - which is, in part, true (Remember that the one tree is protected by the Worm of the World's End, and, in accordance with the legend, awakening it would destroy the world).

[Skyweir]

ahhh now thats an interesting point!

yes in legend the waking of the worm/wurm or whatever .. would also destroy the earth ..

why didnt Foul just invest his time and energy in waking worm boy?

Would have saved him a lot of trouble

kudos member251 .. for bringing it to our attention.