Lets talk about Faith

[Skyweir]

Yes, God would be even better if humans would just stop making him look so bad...

so very true ..

and yet from what i have read on this last page .. some humans also represent him well .. which cannot fail to make him look good as indeed good he is

It is humans that misrepresent God and want to set limits on who God is and what God is. It is humans that institutionalise God .. God is! love is! life is regardless of what dogmatic barnacles seek to burden our perceptions!

Perhaps organisation is necessary and maybe even distinguishable from instiutionalism .. but despite all this .. God is! The Universe is! We are!

[Cate]

I have only just now read this thread. So here now is my 2 cents......
I agree with a lot of you, and especially Fist, debating is useless and only for those who want to be seen as "right".
A very good friend told me a long time ago, "QUESTION EVERYTHING." And some time after that she asked me, "How would you feel about God, if you found out there was no burning seething hell as we have been taught in church?"
I replied that I would be relieved, and I would feel free to search out and explore GOD and actually get to know Him, maybe. And since that moment that is exactly what I have done.
I literally mentally threw everything I had ever been taught about God (except for the historical facts) into the garbage and began "listening" with my whole being. I have since found that there is something for me--little messages from God, I call them--everywhere, in everything. The scriptures are Truth tainted with man-inspired error, and "hell" is one example. It was meant to scare people into being good and worked to some extent didn't it? But fear is not the reason to love or believe in God. Perfect Love casts out fear or makes it unnecessary. The only burning seething hell is the one we all go through every day in our various daily sufferings.
If Jesus, the Son of God, paid in full the price for ALL creation, then All belong to God and NONE will be lost to HIM. Anything else would imply that He was less than all powerful, less that perfect, surprised or tricked somehow, and trying to figure out how to proceed moment to moment. I could never trust or believe in a god like that. I started on my soul's quest after thirty years of religious bondage.
My first and most important find was that TRUST and FAITH are 2 different things. I now know that FAITH is the result of Knowledge. You can't have faith of or for something you do not know. If we had God's faith, as Jesus said, we could say to a moutain be removed and watch it happen instantly. We do not see this, obviously, because we do not have His faith by experience. So we must TRUST His faith. Trust that God's intelligence is so far above ours that He can BE Trusted.

I also found that there are 2 view points. Ours (human) and God's (divine), and that to keep this in mind brings some relief when it all gets to be too much at times.
I also found that God must have a plan, and being perfect, He never needs to change His mind. He only lets me know what I want or ask to know on a "need to know" basis, and that- according to Him, not me. I only see the parade from my little place on the side line, while He sees the whole big picture from start to finish.
I know this is long, but doesn't even scratch the surface, and I do not mean to say here it is-this is it- because I am searching and listening and would never belittle or make light of anything any one has to say. I am just so thankful to have found all of you and enjoying my freedom to seek and question.
I tell you this with all reverence and respect that I believe God wants us to know Him, and that I am seeing more and more people ditching religion and finding God.
Probably if we all tell the truth, we WANT God to exist, and the opposite is too sad and horrible to deal with. So with that said, I continue in my daily quest for further knowledge, and leave you with the same words with which my friend unlocked my prison all those years ago........QUESTION EVERYTHING. God doesn't mind.
Just some thoughts. Cate

[Cate]

I have only just now read this thread. So here now is my 2 cents......
I agree with a lot of you, and especially Fist, debating is useless and only for those who want to be seen as "right".
A very good friend told me a long time ago, "QUESTION EVERYTHING." And some time after that she asked me, "How would you feel about God, if you found out there was no burning seething hell as we have been taught in church?"
I replied that I would be relieved, and I would feel free to search out and explore GOD and actually get to know Him, maybe. And since that moment that is exactly what I have done.
I literally mentally threw everything I had ever been taught about God (except for the historical facts) into the garbage and began "listening" with my whole being. I have since found that there is something for me--little messages from God, I call them--everywhere, in everything. The scriptures are Truth tainted with man-inspired error, and "hell" is one example. It was meant to scare people into being good and worked to some extent didn't it? But fear is not the reason to love or believe in God. Perfect Love casts out fear or makes it unnecessary. The only burning seething hell is the one we all go through every day in our various daily sufferings.
If Jesus, the Son of God, paid in full the price for ALL creation, then All belong to God and NONE will be lost to HIM. Anything else would imply that He was less than all powerful, less that perfect, surprised or tricked somehow, and trying to figure out how to proceed moment to moment. I could never trust or believe in a god like that. I started on my soul's quest after thirty years of religious bondage.
My first and most important find was that TRUST and FAITH are 2 different things. I now know that FAITH is the result of Knowledge. You can't have faith of or for something you do not know. If we had God's faith, as Jesus said, we could say to a moutain be removed and watch it happen instantly. We do not see this, obviously, because we do not have His faith by experience. So we must TRUST His faith. Trust that God's intelligence is so far above ours that He can BE Trusted.

I also found that there are 2 view points. Ours (human) and God's (divine), and that to keep this in mind brings some relief when it all gets to be too much at times.
I also found that God must have a plan, and being perfect, He never needs to change His mind. He only lets me know what I want or ask to know on a "need to know" basis, and that- according to Him, not me. I only see the parade from my little place on the side line, while He sees the whole big picture from start to finish.
I know this is long, but doesn't even scratch the surface, and I do not mean to say here it is-this is it- because I am searching and listening and would never belittle or make light of anything any one has to say. I am just so thankful to have found all of you and enjoying my freedom to seek and question.
I tell you this with all reverence and respect that I believe God wants us to know Him, and that I am seeing more and more people ditching religion and finding God.
Probably if we all tell the truth, we WANT God to exist, and the opposite is too sad and horrible to deal with. So with that said, I continue in my daily quest for further knowledge, and leave you with the same words with which my friend unlocked my prison all those years ago........QUESTION EVERYTHING. God doesn't mind.
Just some thoughts. Cate

[Worm of Despite]

Man, my posts on this thread embarrass me, looking back on them. I was borderline Zeph! What was my problem? Ah well.

[Fist and Faith]

Perfect Love casts out fear

Leonard on Northern Exposure taught me that one. First Letter of John 4:18. I quote it whenever I can.

Probably if we all tell the truth, we WANT God to exist

Not sure "want" is the best word. But I wouldn't be upset if I found out God does, indeed, exist.

and the opposite is too sad and horrible to deal with.

Welcome to my world! But not so sad and horrible! Not from my pov, anyway.

OK, I can't comment on the rest of your letter, because I'd be stopping after every line, saying, "YES! YES! YES!" I just (maybe an hour ago) told you in another thread that you are a wonderful addition to the Watch. This post makes the reason as clear as can be! You're attitude toward these important issues is intense, well-considered, and open. I can't think of a better combination!!!

[Guest]

Thanks Fist......I think we "give" a lot of times by actually "receiving" from others. I like both, since I have given myself permission and commission to do both. Does that make sense???? ; )
Gosh I am waxing so philosophical tonight. lol.
Thanks for being kind to an old broad.

[Fist and Faith]

Wax away, Cate!

[Furls Fire]

I receive when I give. And I'm not talking monetary or material things either. I'm talking about the warmth and joy that enters my heart when I give to others.

I don't think I could feel such joy in any other way. God has truly blessed me with my life and my family.

[Cate]

But if you can let yourself "recieve" what someone wants to "give" even if it appears crude or somehow less than desireable. Taking it in the spriit it is given from that person's heart, making that person feel the satisfaction of "giving", that is what I meant. This is "giving" even when you are "recieving". Allowing someone to be the giver when all you want to do is give your ownself. But sometimes we have to be silent and let them be the giver.
sometimes the words fall out not quite right. HOpe that made sense.

[Fist and Faith]

Yes, it did. Very well said.

[ZefaLefeLaH]

I always wondered, if there is a god, does he really care about something as petty as being worshiped or whether or not we even believe in him?

I know I am a good person and I have faith that IF there is a god, he/she or it would not send good people to a place like hell when they finish living a good life.

Interesting. Do you find it petty that your dog or cat loves you back for they way you treat them? If you tease an animal alot it will be wary of you & may run away from you. If you love an animal alot it will love you back & it is important to you, even if the animal has no significance at all to how you make your life, feed your family, etc.

The fact of the matter, as far as scripture is concerned, is that God made us in His image. So first of all, God's a He because He always refers to Himself in that manner. It has to do with fatherhood and leadership.

God is good, so anything apart from God is not good. I can't think of anything I've done on my own that didn't have some dirty ulterior motive attached to it. If I gave money to someone, I expected something in return. If I gave someone their wallet back that I saw drop to the ground, I expected a reward. If I jumped into the water to save a baby, I expect to be called hero. The only times I ever did anything apart from God that was in any way good and without my own selfishness attached to it was when I simply had a reflex action, had an impulse, etc. If I had had time to think about it, you can bet I would put a price on it & want something back in return.

Once you get past that, then what is good in a person. The answer, nothing, unless that person is saved and has the Holy Spirit living inside of them. Then anytime that they abide by that Spirit which is God, then they are doing good. Whenever they don't abide by that Spirit, then they are like their old selves and they are not good. Or pretty good. But pretty good doesn't cut it for heaven. It has to be perfect. It can't be, I gave $10,000 to charity every year, helped old ladies across the street, didn't beat my wife, and took the dogs for walks. It has to be from God & therefore through the soul of a saved person in order for it to be perfectly good.

That's what being saved means. It isn't just saved from hell. It means saved from ourselves so that we can be a part of the goodness in the world that is God. Everything else is memorex. Close sometimes, but never capable of being the real deal & more often than not simply a cheap imitation.

[Avatar]

I have known plenty of "saved" people who merely pay lip-service to the entire concept, and people who don't believe in god, and yet live their lives in ways that would put many christians to shame.

Sin and Redemption are human concepts, created for specific reasons. I don't need to be saved from myself. I look after myself. I am apart from god, and that doesn't automatically make me "not good".

Except in the eyes of christians who see more value in a nebulous concept than they do in my very real actions and motives.

The majority of christians do not live their lives in any state of "perfect obedience to the will of god". They still carry on in the usual petty human way, perhaps secure in the knowledge that they have been "saved" and can thus slip in on a technicality. If god is truly just, that is what he would base worth on. The way that peole live their lives, not whether they have accepted "him".

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[ZefaLefeLaH]

It's an interesting idea. But it still has fault.

Joe: But I gave to charity.
God: I know, but there's a balance & checklist. You just barely missed, by this much...


Anyway, if we were good 99% of the time, like Mother Theresa, it still wouldn't be enough. God would still be allowing sin to enter heaven. This is why Jesus had to die for our sins. The sins we would make 2000 years after his death in the far future. And because he can die for sins that have no limitation in time, He was also the living embodiment of the sacrificed lambs of the past in the Old Testament. And for us, most importantly, the focus is on Him & not us, so that we can be saved & from that moment forward we are saved. So that it is not just that He died for our sins up until we were saved, that would put the focus on us. But that all of our sins, past, present, and future are paid for in full.

A technicality? If you truly believe that Jesus died for your sins, you won't see it as a technicality. You'll see it as the ultimate sacrifice, the best love story imaginable, that God would become human to live perfectly among us as we once could have lived in the time before the fall of man (Adam & Eve), He was also a man, firstly a man, and He had choices just like us. But He always chose God. And so when that innocent man was put on the cross, God's only Son, and He died, He defeated death for all time, and all people had to do was accept the gift.

Here, I'm giving you a great gift!
I don't want it.
But why, it's free! Take it.
I don't want to.
But it is eternal life in heaven!!!!
It would change me. I don't want to change.
But you'll die without it.
I don't care.
Please take it. I'll keep offering it to you all your life.
I'll keep saying no.
I've made it easy for you.
It isn't easy. It is still hard to believe in God, just as it is sometimes hard to do the right thing in society.
I love you.
I don't care. Leave me alone.

That's the general way of it I think. If you had never heard about it & read it in a book, you would feel sympathy for God and anger at the doubting Thomas for not having an open mind and an open heart. But you might also understand him if in the book you read, everyone was taught from birth to disbelieve God.

[Avatar]

Sorry man, I'm not sure I understand what you are trying to say there.

Are you saying that the "fact" that Jesus died "for our sins" means that even if you haven't been 100% good, you can still be accepted into heaven?

To me, this makes it a technicality. "Although you've been bad, accepting that Jesus died for you means we'll let you off" ?

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[Iryssa]

Pretty much, man...the thing is, if we believe, and we truly love God, our desire will be to please God...i.e. works do not get you Salvation; Faith gets you salvation which produces works. So, if a guy tells you he's a Christian and he's going to heaven, but when he's at home he's a drunkard and he beats his kids, I'd say you have major reason to doubt him.

Even if we love God, though, and we are saved, we're still human...if we repent of our wrongdoings, and actually seek God's forgiveness and try (not by our own, strength but the strength which God gives) to live good and godly lives, we still have salvation, because we still have faith in the sacrifice (and show it). Does that make sense? or am I already too incoherent? *weary grin*

[Avatar]

I think you're still making sense and I certainly agree with the example of the guy beating his kids. Thats the kind of thing I call lip-service, and it's very few of the christians I've met who actually live by their convictions.

I suppose the checks and balances are meant to be brought in by god himself, and its him who gets to decide if you really believed and did your best, but without that in the equation, it's too much like a cop-out for my taste -- Convince god that you meant well, despite your "sins" and all will be well.

And what if we try through our own strength to live good and godly lives? It doesn't count? Still damned? There's a major problem I have. "Only through god..."

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[Iryssa]

Just a couple verses so you guys know I'm not pulling this doctrine out of my butt:

'If we deliberately keep on sinning after we have received the knowledge of the truth, no sacrifice for sins is left, but only a fearful expectation of judgment and of raging fire that will consume the enemies of God." Hebrews 10:26-27

"As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead." - James 2:26

And what if we try through our own strength to live good and godly lives? It doesn't count? Still damned?

Do you mean as a Christian trying to live a good and godly life by his/her own strength? I don't think it's that it doesn't count, I just don't think it's actually possible (take my word for it, I've discovered that the hard way a lot of times). From personal experience, when I start to do things on my own strength, I start to feel proud of the things I'm doing (in which case I'm already starting to fall into ungodly patterns), as if I'm earning my way to heaven, and could therefore boast about my deeds. Really, I should remember that "It is because of him [God the Father] that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God--that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption. Therefore, as it is written: 'Let him who boasts boast in the Lord.'" (1 Corinthians 1:30-31)

If you mean "can you get to heaven by being a good person?": When you think about it, even the best "good" person you know has messed up...can you name one adult who has not done something wrong? A single person who has never lied, never secretly was envious of something (or someone) someone else has? Therefore, as Hebrews 11:6 says, "without faith it is impossible to please God."

[Avatar]

If you mean "can you get to heaven by being a good person?"

Yes, this is sort of what I mean. I'm not saying that there are people don't mess up, becuase obviously they do. Does the fact of those few mistakes, providing that you do your best at all times to live a "good and godly" life, make it impossible to enter heaven?

Well, of course from the christian perspective, it does. You can't go to heaven if you don't believe in god. It doesn't matter what good you do, or how many people you help, or what "bad" things you refrain from doing.

And to me, this is unfair. Theoretically, you could live your life for your own gratification, undergo a last-minute conversion, and if you're sincere, (and who wouldn't be if they thought the alternative was hell), you can get "eternal bliss".

Is god truly so unjust?

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[Iryssa]

What is unjust about it? God's nature cannot tolerate sin, therefore even someone with only the tiniest sins wouldn't make it into heaven -- rules aren't any different for a "good person" than they are for anyone else. Nor are the rules different for a "bad person." God asks the same thing of everyone; that they truly accept Jesus' sacrifice, so that they can be clean of sin when it's time for them to go to heaven. Sounds pretty fair to me. If he just let any Joe into heaven who led a pretty good life, but didn't care three straws about Jesus, it wouldn't be fair to Jesus, and it wouldn't be fair to those who did actually care about him. It would also go against God's aforementioned nature, becuase that sin -- however small it seems to us -- would still be there. Another thing is, how is forgiveness unjust? God WANTS every one to get to heaven...but it has to happen without their free will being taken, therefore, it has to be one's personal choice to accept the Gospel. Is it his fault someone doesn't accept Christ until late in life, when they have been given every opportunity to? I don't think so. The offer was ALWAYS on the table.

I would also like to point out that it is impossible for someone who does not know God to live a life that is both good AND godly (godly in the Christian sense, which is always how I use it). The first commandment is "love the Lord your God with all your heart, soul, and mind." Right away, they break that first, major commandment.

Anyway, for an example of a great sinner is accepted, turn to Luke 7....note that it wasn't the Pharisees --the people who lived such "good" lives -- who accepted God's forgiveness with gratitude.

[Avatar]

Right, that's what I'm saying. If you don't accept god/Jesus then the way you lived your life doesn't matter.

All else is secondary to such acceptance. That's the most important consideration. Not what you did, but that you're sorry you did it. And this remains true even if the things you should be sorry for are only the most minor "offences".

If "godly" only applies in the christian sense, fair enough. Let's forget that one. Is it possible to live a truly good life without accepting god?

And if it is, and that's still not enough, does it mean that god only cares about your belief in (or acceptance of) him, and not in the good you've done?

I'm open to correction here, but isn't it that "god wants that no man should die", not that "everyone should enter heaven"? A small, but perhaps crucial, difference?

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