can we tell the truth

[ZefaLefeLaH]

But it wasn't because they believed in something different. The communists killed other communists for exactly the same reasons they killed the christians, because they saw them as opponents.
It was Stalin's policy to remove anyone he saw as a threat, not because he thought their beliefs were incorrect but because he thought he would be safer without them there. There's a difference between that and the (old) christian way of killing people as punishment for their beliefs.

Try being a Christian in Taliban-controlled Afghanistan. They'd a kilt ya.
Try preaching in China, it isn't because they fear for their communism, it is because it is an illegal religion and against the accepted religion. China is well known as being a place where if you are caught with a Bible, you die. And it's also a place of fast-growing Christianity.

There are examples of this all over the world and all throughout the last 2,000 years. You are being fed lies hand & foot and you don't even question it.

Try doing a search on Christian Martyrs. Spend a little time actually doing research instead of just accepting what all the religion-haters feed you.

[Nathan]

There are examples of this all over the world and all throughout the last 2,000 years. You are being fed lies hand & foot and you don't even question it.

Fed lies by whom? I have been presented with facts and interpreted them to form an opinion.
Which lies are you talking about?

[ZefaLefeLaH]

You got that backwards.


You've been fed opinions of which you've chosen some that fit into your viewpoint of reality & decided to call them facts.

[Nathan]

Prove it.

Communists killed Christians: Fact

Communists killed any opponents they felt threatened by: Fact

Communist beliefs do not conflict directly with Christiany: Fact

Therefore the Christians must have been killed for something else they have in common other than their beliefs: opinion derived from facts

It must have been because the church was seen as an opposing power separate from the fact that it was christian, the communists would have killed them whatever they believed because they felt threatened by their power not their beliefs: Further opinion based on facts and previous opinion.

Tell me where I went wrong.

[Brinn]

Communist beliefs do not conflict directly with Christiany: Fact

I disagree. Marxist Communist beliefs conflict with all religions that hold a supreme being as superior to the state.

[Worm of Despite]

Perhaps, but has there ever been a communist nation like the way Marx envisioned? I think, had he seen the USSR, he would have changed his saying "workers of the world unite" to "workers of the world, what have I done?"

[ZefaLefeLaH]

Communist beliefs do not conflict directly with Christiany: Fact

I disagree. Marxist Communist beliefs conflict with all religions that hold a supreme being as superior to the state.

It was the same for the Romans, one of the greatest empires of all time.

[ZefaLefeLaH]

Prove it.

Communists killed Christians: Fact

Communists killed any opponents they felt threatened by: Fact

Communist beliefs do not conflict directly with Christiany: Fact

Therefore the Christians must have been killed for something else they have in common other than their beliefs: opinion derived from facts

Tell me where I went wrong.

Let's say that all the things you say are true. Okay? And there is no mistake in them. They are, as you say, facts.

Where you went wrong is that you've accepted only these truths with which to base your opinion. You neglected to understand that in China, if you are found with a Bible, you will be executed. It is an illegal religion. There are legal religions, but Christianity is not one of them.

I gave advice on how to find more of these examples, but you aren't interested in the truth. You are interested in your truth and your facts, and you are right, it is an opinion. Because it certainly isn't based on the truth, but rather selected facts and opinions. Who told you about these things? Did you research them for yourself or did someone explain this to you? If you did research them for yourself, then you are not a good scientist in your reasoning. A good researcher in his reasoning would take in all possible causes and effects. A good researcher would know that throughout its 2000 year history, Christians have been killed for their beliefs. Jesus was killed for His belief because the Pharisees saw Him as a condescending blasphemor. They overlooked the fact that He provided care and mercy and performed miracles. They felt threatened and had Him killed. Almost alll of Jesus's disciples were also killed. The Jews of the holocaust were not attacked simply because of their nationality, but because Hitler hated them because represented God's chosen people. He and his top men were highly into the occult and this did not escape them. People who believe in God are killed by the scores every year because of their beliefs. Do some research! Find out the truth instead of what most likely happened, you heard this from someone else and you are parroting it because it serves your anti-Christian agenda. Why don't you find out about God instead of persecuting Him? Go to 7 different churches in a year's time & read chapters from the Bible that a Christian tells you about so you don't have to read the whole thing, just a little bit. Can you do that? Can you have a balance of knowledge? That way, if you want to hate God and despise those that believe in Him as silly and uneducated, at least you tried to understand them and have at least a background from both sides from which to base your opinions that you will believe in as your facts.

That's what I meant to say Nathan.

[Sheol]

wow, i can remember starting this "can we tell the truth" topic and I never thought it would get this big. i have been gone a while and i thought it would just die because an atheast started it, what a surprise. and i never thought the one and only ZefaLefeLaH would post here. but i do have a question for the sagacious ZefaLefeLaH. if man was created in Gods image and man is so evil and mislead, doesnt that mean God is no better then the best of us, or even the worst of us? and if we are so imperfect, and man was once distroyed by God because of one imperfection shouldnt we be distroyed now ( or at least supplanted by a more perfect race)? our ancestors should have, hitler's answer to the Jewish question is in my eyes a worse imperfection. And God seemed to be a little more involved 4000 years ago then he is now (if at all). shouldnt he be putting a stop to all of this death and distruction. if he doesnt do something soon there is going to be nothing for Jeasus to "come back" to. and why hasnt he came back yet, there is no logical reason for God to wait, if we are al going to go to heaven whay doesnt he bring us back now. and any reasonable person has to agree that God doesnt care or as at least incompetant. i have a copious supply of questions but i will save them for a later date

[ZefaLefeLaH]

Sheol, this is a very common set of questions. It's unfortuneate that the right answers aren't also as commonly given.

First of all, God created us in His image. Adam & Eve. But in His plan, He gave them choice. They chose wrongly, as would most any of us, probably all of us. Once this choice was made, death entered the universe. It's like this though, if you have a girlfriend & she will only be your girlfriend no matter what, then that's good, unless she is merely a prisoner, then it isn't as good. If she has no choice, then you can't know if she would have stayed with you or not. Let's say you have a child. If that child has no freewill & is your slave, then when it misbehaves you can beat it with rocks or outright kill the child. Isn't it better to hope that your child will overcome the odds, graduate from college & tell you thank you, I love you?

Why is there so much strife & pain in the world? Why doesn't God come & fix it? If God came to us, then we would have proof of His existence. Then we would be like the angels who *KNOW* Him. One sin after that & we would be damned to hell. Because we have to live by faith, we have infinite choices throughout our lives, and by faith we are saved in our belief that Jesus died for our sins. It isn't by knowledge. This would ruin everything. The world is full of poison because evil is on the hearts of the many. Even if we were all saved, our old natures (hello, look at me for instance) would still be a part of us. That part is only burned away prior to becoming citizens of eternity in heaven. So it's just humanity. But in my estimation, if life were but chance and God didn't exist, there would be no evil. There would also be no love or goodness. Hard to imagine, but right & wrong wouldn't matter. Goodness & evil wouldn't be part of the equation. We would be like animals, incapable of such feelings. It would be a cold, sterile existence. No interesting novels, no movies, they wouldn't make sense to us. You can't have one without the other.

[Nathan]

Just because I choose to argue over one point instead of arguing over a whole range of topics means I haven't considered all the topics?

I have formed all my opinions on religion through experience.
I have read the majority of the bible. I've sat through countless hours, days of 'sermons' and 'teachings'. I listened to them because I thought they might have some value, and because my father thought they did. So I sat and listened, and what did I find? I found that there were things in the bible and christianity that were contradictory and hypocritical.
I didn't form this opinion because other people suggested it to me, I was surrounded by christians, none of them would dream of trying to persuade me that christianity was incorrect. I listened to the Chritian teachings. I weighed them and found them wanting. I plan to go through the same process for as many possible religions as I can find, to make sure I don't miss something.
You seem to be a good example of why I don't like christianity. You've been criticising me, attacking my character, telling me why I'm wrong and why my opinions are wrong and all I've done is defend my point. I haven't told you your beliefs are wrong, all I've said is that communists didn't kill Christians for Christianity's sake. But you wouldn't leave me alone, and I've had enough. I'm not going to bother reading any of your posts any more because all you seem to do is criticise everyone else's viewpoints without bothering to look at them (edit: to clarify, without bothering to look at the reasoning behind the points). You admitted that I was right about the communist question then you went on to criticise me about it anyway because, seemingly, it's all you can do.
To be honest with you I don't really care if the communists killed Christians for their beliefs, but the facts lead me to believe that they didn't, so I'm not willing to have someone try and FORCE me to believe otherwise. Christians seem adept at trying to force people to believe things they don't. They can't even get along within themselves, Catholicism, Protestantism, etc. How many Christians have killed each other over small matters like purgatory, the nature of hell, etc.
Of course, It woulsn't be fair to judge Christianity by its proponents, and I don't. I just find their attitude helps me to be sure that I made the right choice.

[Baradakas]

Sheol said:

shouldnt he be putting a stop to all of this death and distruction. if he doesnt do something soon there is going to be nothing for Jeasus to "come back" to.

Good point Sheol. However I have an answer for you. Read Revelation. It is the final chapter of the Bible, written by the disciple John during his exile to the Isle of Patmos. "But for the sake of the elect (Jesus' chosen worthy followers) no flesh would be saved alive." We will come to the edge of nuclear annihilation, thousands upon thousands will die, but Jesus wil return right before it all ends to take us in hand. God gives us every chance to repent and follow his ways, even till the very end.
Yet the leaders of the world never seek to follow Christ's teachings, nor that of the Old Testament, and we rush headlong towards our own doom, and God's chastisement (the seven Trumpet Plagues, which are very bad).


Zeph, Nathan grew up in a family of Jehovah's Witnesses. Factually speaking (facts derived from the Bible, anyway), I can assure you he does know what he's talking about, he has simply turned from that path for his own reasons. I don't believe he hates religion, he has simply found inaccuracies he cant explain, and messages he doesnt care for in the Bible. (please correct me is I'm wrong Nathan)

[Sheol]

Thanks Baradakas, I guess i missed that part and now consider myself schooled. But now I will direct the topic a different way. It is no secret that the vatican has stolen, hoarded, and kept secret countless numbers of precious documents. It is thought that advanced astronomical knowledge dating back to ancient Babilon is amoung them. Why? Why can't we see them, or know what they are? The only logical answer is that our history, our past, is hidden there. It is called xainity, the controlling of a people by changing or distroying thier past. If these documents are useless and old why all the secrecy. There has to be words in those texts that are more powerful then those in the bible, why else would they keep it from us? Ponder on that a little bit and let me know what you think.

[Baradakas]

Another possibilty exists Sheol, one that only a Biblical Scholar might reference. Ancient Babylon, as wonderful as it might have been, was really important for one reason; it was the first incarnation of the successive empires to follow, empires that would one day become the Beast of Revelation, which Daniel details most explicitly. (see the Book of Daniel). The Vatican does withhold information however, but not enough to obfuscate why they do it. Through careful study and research, it becomes clear that the Woman who has many children and "sits on many waters", who has never known loss or sorrow, and "has no equal", is the Roman Catholic Church itself. The Catholic Church often refers to other church branches as "daughter churches" and as the Bible hints "exalts itself above the Lord" (the Pope is referred to as Most Holy Father, while Holy Father was the name Jesus gave God). The Catholic Church has learned, to its own aborrance, that it isitself the Whore of Babylon. (any empire, that wished to called a "holy" empire, had to have the Catholic Church's endorsement, the Third Reich had its endorsement) They wish to hide this fact as best they can, but secular history, not theological has done them in. I will soon be writing a thesis based on my research, and with any luck I can post it here for your examination.

Thats all I have for now... no offense intended folks, I just have some strong opinions about the Catholic Church.....

[Avatar]

Great posts everybody, and so much to reply to.

Nathan-- Off the top of my head, I wonder if the reason for monotheism's usual lack of religious tolerance was because they had fewer deities to appease, which left them plenty of time for converting others. Also, of course, they tended to be trying to draw their base of believers from other religions, hence the incorporation of so many pagan festivals, and even concepts, into christianity. They were trying to make it as appealing as possible.

Brinn-- Fair enough, communists certainly killed theists and although I didn't specifically mention aetheists, certainly the Romans (pagans) were responsible for the murder of many christians. Although, I think Nathan makes a good point in saying that it was for political reasons, rather then religious ones. The christians refused to accept the divinity of the emporer, which threatened the state. If they had, (not that they could), they may not have become the scapegoats that the empire used them as.

The crusaders were not threatened by the Muslims, they decided that Islam held lands which should belong to the church.

Lord Foul also makes an excellent point, it is true, then and now, that no state has ever been composed of people who are unanimously in favour of that state. It is the people who prove best at getting rid of the old government that choose the new one.

Edge-- Although in a sense I agree with you, I could argue that the vitriol you mention results directly from the opinion of the church that pagans are intolerable and an affront to god. I'm pretty sure that if the church hadn't dedicated so much time to trying to burn "witches" and "heretics", the opinions would be a bit different.

However, I return to my original point in saying that even that "dislike" that you mention is not a motivator for pagans to attempt to convert christians. On the whole, pagans prefer not to get into that sort of argument with christians, and I doubt you have ever seen pagans going door to door and trying to convince people to worship the Goddess.

As I've said before, religion has far more to do with people than it does with god.

--Avatar

[Iryssa]

As I've said before, religion has far more to do with people than it does with god.

A statement sad but true...which is why I dislike the word "religion" so much. When I make following Christ more of a religion and less of a relationship, that's when I start to screw up...and do all those things you guys hate about us.

A few other responses that have come to my mind while reading these posts:

Please don't fall victim to Gambler's Fallacy (the assumption that one part of a group or series will be the rule for the whole). We don't all hate or even dislike everybody who isn't a Christian. God certainly doesn't condone it when we do.

Those dang crusaders are gonna be a permanent black mark on our record, aren't they? I have to tell you, I don't much like being compared to people who lived hundreds of years ago and did those terrible things I would never do. I have a feeling no one else would like it much, either.

From what I can tell, doing the knocking on doors has got to be the least effective way--and one of the most intrusive--to tell people about God. I've never done it, never will, and I've never been involved in a church which has. I don't "proselytize" unless it happens come into the natural flow of the conversation or I'm asked what I believe. And by the way, don't get Christians confused with Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses (the one's who employ the tactic of knocking on doors more commonly than any Christian church, that I've seen). They say they're the same, but they're not...if you want me to go into it, I will.

Anyone who doesn't believe Christians are killed and tortured even today simply because they will not convert to another religion or just deny Christ, pick up the book "Jesus Freaks" (compiled by DC Talk and The Voice of the Martyrs). It's almost 400 pages long and is packed full of stories of real Christian martyrs persecuted for their faith, covering a time range from 34AD to 1999...I think there's a second one out, too, that has newer stories as well as some older ones. Definitely worth a read.

[Avatar]

...(the assumption that one part of a group or series will be the rule for the whole). We don't all hate or even dislike everybody who isn't a Christian. God certainly doesn't condone it when we do.

Don't worry about that. I'm always aware that we, per force must generalise in these sort of debates. I have several christian friends, and certainly I've never gained the impression that anyone on this board hates anyone else, for any reason.

I love the fact that we can enter into this sort of debate without anyone getting too upset about it. It's only by constantly questioning and answering that we can gain different perspectives.

From what I can tell, doing the knocking on doors has got to be the least effective way to tell people about God. I've never done it, never will, and I've never been involved in a church which has...don't get Christians confused with Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses (the one's who employ the tactic of knocking on doors more commonly than any Christian church, that I've seen). They say they're the same, but they're not...if you want me to go into it, I will.

Please do go into it. As far as I'm concerned, anyone who believes that Christ was the son of god, and that he died for their sins, and will return, is a christian. Of course I realise that there are many differences, disagreements and factions within christianity, but that doesn't alter the fact that they all consider themselves followers of christ, and hence christians.

Anyone who doesn't believe Christians are killed and tortured even today simply because they will not convert to another religion or just deny Christ...

Not disagreeing with you here either. Sure it happens. Who is it being done by though? Nice, peaceful pagans , or intolerant monotheists?

--Avatar

[Iryssa]

Okay, well, here we go then. This'll be long, just so you're forewarned (it could be longer, but I'm just gonna give three points on each)...

Starting with JW's:
1. They do not believe Jesus is God. From the talks I’ve had with some of their members, Jehovah’s Witnesses believe that Jesus was a man, created by God much the same way Adam was (how they reconcile that with him being born, I’ll never know…could just be one of the many things I’ve found they carefully avoid). Christians believe that Jesus was born of the virgin Mary, by God’s seed, and is therefore both fully man and fully God (kinda like a duel citizen of Canada and the US, if you struggle with that image, like I have in the past). Phil. 2:6-7

2. They do not believed that anyone who truly accepts Christ as Savior will enter into heaven. They believe that only an "elite" group numbering 144,000 will enter heaven. They use Revelation 7:4 to defend their point. Rev. 7:4 speaks about 144,00 from the twelve tribes of Israel—it doesn’t talk about all believers. Directly after that verse, however, it speaks of people going to heaven "from every tribe, nation, people and language," standing before the throne of God. Most JW's that I have spoken to have argued that the whole bit about the tribes of Israel is only symbolic, but their logic still crumbles when you point out that the 144,000 are listed in number according to tribe, and then the second group mentioned comes from every nation, not just the twelve tribes of Israel. (So, it shows two groups, the 144,000 AND the “multitude” entering into heaven)

3. They do not believe in the Christian canon (the "measuring stick" by which all scriptures in the Christian -- not Mormon or Jehovah's Witness -- are measured), they have their own, set by the Watchtower Association...who have a tendency to rewrite verses so that they take on a meaning very different from that found in the original language


Now, Mormons:
1. Similarily to the JW's Mormons don't believe Jesus was God's begotten Son. Mormons believe that Jesus was a man like anyone else, and he worked his way up to God-hood. They also do not believe that Jesus should be prayed to, but only the Father should be. Christians believe that Jesus and teh Father are of the same essence, equally God in the person of the Trinity, with the Holy Spirit (edit: wow, I missed a bunch of really important words in there), and therefore equally worthy to recieve prayer. (In John 14:14 Jesus makes it clear that we may pray to him)

2. The Mormons do not follow the Christian Canon either...they have added books (Doctrines and Covenants, The Book of Mormon, and "A Pearl of Great Price.") A great many of the instructions in these books contradicts the teachings of the Christian Bible. (i.e. A Pearl of Great Price, Abraham 4-5, teaches that there is more than one god...three separate gods rather than a tri-une God, and more gods besides)

3. There is a fundamental difference in the way Mormons view salvation, compared to the way we do: When Mormons talk about salvation by grace, they’re referring to what they themselves call “general salvation.” By this, Mormons mean that everybody is going to be resurrected, after which they will be judged according to their works.
The other kind of salvation recognized by Mormons is what’s called “individual” or “full salvation.” This type of salvation is available only to Mormons who have steadfastly obeyed the laws and ordinances of the Mormon church. Well, you know what this means — once again, we end up with the doctrine of salvation by works. In this case, we’re talking about the reward being an open path to “exaltation” or godhood. Well, because Mormons strive to become gods and goddesses, and because they regard “individual salvation” as the only way to reach their goal, they believe that merely attaining “general salvation” is virtually equivalent to damnation.

[Avatar]

Hmm, interesting.

Given your points, I'm certainly willing to concede that those two faiths may not be christians in the sense that you mean. However, do they consider themselves to be christian?

If so, then it's really only a matter of semantics isn't it? Similar to the catholic/protestant schisms, where all they really disagree on is how to follow christ. (and of course, what interpretations can be applied to the bible, and all the other things they disagree on).

Still, thanks for taking the trouble to grant me a different perspective. Always appreciated.

--Avatar

[Nathan]

About the Jehovah's witness beliefs:

The way I've understood it is that Jesus was not created in the same way as adam. Jehovah caused Mary to become pregnant using his seed, but this doesn't make him God, it makes him the son of God.

And the heaven thing:

They believe that 144,000 will be appointed as a 'ruling class' in heaven, while everyone else lives an eternal life of perfection on a paradise Earth.
They have their own translation of the bible too, called "The New world translation of the Holy Scriptures". I think the gist of it is pretty much the same as every other bible, but they've re-inserted Jehovah in the appropriate places and retranslated certain passages to fit their purposes