Determinism

[Nathan]

I've become of the opinion that free will is an illusion. Every action we take is only a product of experience and instinct.
The illusion of choice stems from the desire to believe that we have control, even when we clearly don't. A prisoner will always utilise what little freedoms remain to him, and believe he is free. He has to, it's the only thing he has left. The illusion of freedom is better than nothing, but it's still not real.

I found out the other day that this belief is known as determinism. What does everyone else think?

[Gadget nee Jemcheeta]

I used to call myself a determinist, but after a lot of thought, I realized that I couldn't see why it mattered.
I was very big on a specific read of Plato that isn't usually taught, but one of the facet's of it which I think is generally taught is his theory of human action
To put it most basically, and ignoring biology for the moment, Plato said that action occurred when you combined the human desire for happiness with the set of beliefs the human has for what will make him/her happy.
If that is the case, then your beliefs will be determining your actions. Ad infinitum. And if your beliefs are accrued through experiences, and the experiences are guided by actions, there isn't any room for free will at all.
I was very entertained by this concept for a long time, until I realized that it was fairly irrelevent on a fundamentel level...although it is interesting in its implications.
The thing is, I still have to make those determined decisions. I have to go through that process...if I came to the conclusion that I had no free will, and then decided I would stop acting because of it...that would still be determined. Or if I tried to do something to combat it, like something radical to my general values, that would STILL be determined. If I ignored it, it would still be determined. So it doesn't really effect the behavoir very much. Or if it did, it would be in a deterministic manner.
What it DID do for me, that I think is positive, is suggest a few ideas....for example, after coming to believe that all human action was determined, it became easier to look at a situation where I normally would have thrown around blame like it was a weapon, and instead look at which factors determined the situation to occur. At that point, our beliefs become influenced by the new knowledge of what sorts of things creates unhappiness, and in the future, we avoid these things. In this way we can hope to learn from our mistakes.
I feel like I left some inconsistensies in there, and I apologize. For me and Philosophy, I'm a little out of practice.

[Worm of Despite]

Not sure if I like the idea of determinism. Not saying I don't think it's true, but the thought that all future events have already been determined doesn't rub well with me--nor that free will is an illusion. Personally, I don't care, really. If my birth determined I would buy Chrono Trigger, I'm glad for determinism!

[[Syl]]

I believe in absolute free will and absolute determinism. I think they're different ways of looking at the same thing.

The question I have, though, is 'What does it feel like?' Very few of us ever feel the universe moving beneath our feet, about our heads, and even through our limbs. Even fewer feel it for long. It's not a very egocentric viewpoint.

It's my belief that, barring a complex system like a Divine Plan, only the solipsist can truly believe in free will.

But like Jem said, it's kind of irrelevant unless you make it something important to yourself. Neither trees nor dolphins ever consider free will, nor do millions of people across the world. If it doesn't get you food, shelter, or offspring...

[Worm of Despite]

One problem I've always had with determinism is that it basically states we are incapable of independent choice, thus there is no basis for morality; aspects of criminal and civil jurisprudence and legislation are left without their necessary foundation.

I admit, even if determinism is inconsistent with the idea of a moral universe, that does not necessarily invalidate its conclusions.

[Gadget nee Jemcheeta]

That the two are the same, two ways of looking at it... exactly! The only view that appears muddled or incorrect to me is the view that it is a half and half...as though generally physics applies except in specific situations where freedom applies. That's too complex, and very unlikely...it would require a SECOND set of physics to govern when each would take place. And then you would be left with the same problem.

[Avatar]

Interesting topic Nathan.

On the whole, I'm opposed to the idea of determinisim. I prefer to believe in absolute free will. (And yes, I suppose I am still something of a solipsist. )

We have the choice. In everything that happens, we and we alone are responsible for our actions. We are responsible for how we choose to react to something. I think that the universe is too random to allow for determinism.

The thing that throws us, is that we fail to take into account the fact that the free will of others impacts on our environment as well.

Every descision we make is an excercise of free will. Every choice sends us down one of several possible pathways. Perhaps (only perhaps) all pathways reach the same point, and we are free to decide how we reach that point, but if so, that point is death, the only thing that is predetermined.

I don't like the thought that something will happen regardless of what I do. My actions have the power to alter the future. As do yours.

Choose wisely.

--Avatar

[Nathan]

But like Jem said, it's kind of irrelevant

(edit: / key needs pressing harder)

Yes, but isn't everything if you look at it from certain perspectives?

I don't like the thought that something will happen regardless of what I do. My actions have the power to alter the future. As do yours.

Doesn't mean you're choosing your actions though. And if you haven't seen the future, how can you know if you've changed it

[Fist and Faith]

This topic, which I really like, comes up now and again. And again, I'll just point everyone to the Hangar thread I started about it a while back.
p210.ezboard.com/fahirashangarfrm18.showMessage?topicID=21.topic

[Avatar]

Doesn't mean you're choosing your actions though.

Really? Who chooses them for me then? I can't accept that what I do, is decided by some "other force". I have a variety of options available, and I select the one I want most.

And as for seeing the future, in a certain sense we can. It's perfectly possible for us to consider the ramifications of any action. We can tell, or at least assume with a fair degree of accuracy, what the probable outcome of any action is.

We choose the action with the most desirable outcome. We have effectively changed a "possible future", simply by virtue of a different choice.

Just as an oversimplified example: You're standing holding a valuable vase. If you break it, one future becomes probable, i.e. someone will be upset. If you put it down carefully, another becomes probable, i.e. no-one will be upset. You get to choose which future happens. This is almost always true, although perhaps on a more complex scale than that.

--Avatar

[Gadget nee Jemcheeta]

I agree that you have a variety of options, and you accept the one that you most want.
So my question is this... where do those wants come from? What produces the variety of desires that we have? At any given instant we probably have a multitude of desires... do we act based on the one that is affecting us most powerfully at the time? and if so, what determines how those various desires weigh in against each other, and to what degree?
My point is, I think that it is those desires that are predetermined based on experience and our beliefs on what will make us the most happy.
Although happy isn't really a good word for it. I would rather say something like fulfilled in the greatest way.

[Nathan]

Just as an oversimplified example: You're standing holding a valuable vase. If you break it, one future becomes probable, i.e. someone will be upset. If you put it down carefully, another becomes probable, i.e. no-one will be upset. You get to choose which future happens. This is almost always true, although perhaps on a more complex scale than that.

I understand what you're saying and I agree that you have the choice of more than one possible future. However, the moment you choose one, all the others become impossible, and the choice you make is dictated by:

consider[ing] the ramifications of [the] action. [And telling], or at least assum[ing] with a fair degree of accuracy, what the probable outcome of [the] action is.

Unless you make the decision instinctively.
Either way, the choice you make will be dictated by your past experiences: You can't judge the ramifications of an action without experience, and any judgement made based on groundless decision is instinct. What I'm saying is, if you were always going to make the choice (because your experiences force you to) then is it really a choice?

[Gadget nee Jemcheeta]

How about this: How do we define choice?
If I have variables, past experiences, predictions for the future, and my personal bias, and I take all those together and come up with a decision, I say that I have made a choice.
That allows for you to make a choice that was already predetermined.... Think about how foul manipulates those he seeks to undermine

[Fist and Faith]

And as for seeing the future, in a certain sense we can. It's perfectly possible for us to consider the ramifications of any action. We can tell, or at least assume with a fair degree of accuracy, what the probable outcome of any action is.

Using psychohistory, what's his name, Seldon?, kept amazingly careful track of all the variables he could, and predicted the future very well.

Just as an oversimplified example: You're standing holding a valuable vase. If you break it, one future becomes probable, i.e. someone will be upset. If you put it down carefully, another becomes probable, i.e. no-one will be upset.

I will. I always hated that vase.

[Gadget nee Jemcheeta]

What's psychohistory, and who's this Sheldon character? Just curious, always out to expand my perspective

[Fist and Faith]

Heh. Just kidding around. It's the basis of Asimov's Foundation series. And don't worry, I didn't spoil anything. I think that's the first thing discussed in the first book.

I agree that you have a variety of options, and you accept the one that you most want.
So my question is this... where do those wants come from? What produces the variety of desires that we have?

This is why I say we don't have total free will. I did not choose:
-blue as my favorite color
-my heterosexuality
-my love for Bach and lukewarm feeling for Mozart
-my love (bordering on madness) of sugar, chocolate, and all things that contain any of either
-my love of TCTC
-my love for my children, even though I didn't particularly want any, which is beyond anything that any human being ever felt

And the list goes on. There is no free will in any of them. I could not choose to NOT feel the way I do about ANY of these things, even if I had any desire to. As I've said elsewhere, I'm amazed by those who say that homosexuality is a choice. I know I couldn't choose to be, and it boggles my mind that they could. My feelings for my children are as much under my control as the number of arms I was born with. People who abuse or kill their children are, and I mean this in the most literal sense there is, absolutely beyond my comprehension.

[ZefaLefeLaH]

I've become of the opinion that free will is an illusion. Every action we take is only a product of experience and instinct.
The illusion of choice stems from the desire to believe that we have control, even when we clearly don't. A prisoner will always utilise what little freedoms remain to him, and believe he is free. He has to, it's the only thing he has left. The illusion of freedom is better than nothing, but it's still not real.

I found out the other day that this belief is known as determinism. What does everyone else think?

An insect lives its life according to experience and instinct. A dog may appear to also do so. If its owner is very cruel, the dog will cower or become vicious, if the owner is good, the dog will be well-adjusted and learn new ways to please his master. A human is not this simplistic.

First of all, your example is flawed. A prisoner is only free in his dreams, the rest of the time he is quite aware of where he is. You can play cards or watch television, but every single waking moment there is one axiom that leads your life and that is the fact of where you are. Nothing, ever, can supercede this reality.

An abused child is not like a dog. The child can differentiate the moods of the abuser. An abused dog would be always wary after enough experiences. A child will have the freewill to believe that even if experience proves him or her wrong that it is possible that things will get better or even that the person abusing them actually loves them but just has trouble showing it.

If you are good to someone and care for them and do better than most in your relationship than most others, how is it that this person would be capable of causing such pain in your life with a divorce because they made a CHOICE to cheat on you? And now, even though all of their experience with you has been of you treating them very well, they will divorce you. Tell me out instinct would make them cheat on you when so many others are able to keep their pants on? How is it experience when you’ve been so good to them?

Even my own remarks here on The Watch is proof of freewill. I can freely tell you that you are an idiot or I can choose not to. I can be a jerk or I can choose not to. What is the instinct reasoning to be a jerk or to call you an idiot? What experience of my past would determine that I should be a jerk or call you an idiot? And if that experience is there & I have no freewill then how come I’m a jerk less often over time?

[Avatar]

Some good posts here, and I'm especially interested in the various ways people are looking at this.

I was sort of looking at in as "Everything you do or will do is already decided ahead of time."

I certainly agree that our environment, our psychology, our upbringng, our society, all play a role in our choices to a certain extent. This is not to say that a person can't overcome these factors. They can. This is where choice comes in. Although we are all slaves to our preconceptions at some point, and in some ways, we have the chance to realise this, and act in opposition to it. This is not to say that it's easy, but it's possible.

All those factors can combine to produce our desires, but ultimately, we are in control of those desires. We always have the choice of action or inaction, regardless of the drives toward any particular course. We can have an overwhelming desire to do something, and still not do it.

Choices can be affected by our past experiences, never dictated.

And because I'm in a quoting mood:

And an orator said, "Speak to us of Freedom."

And he answered:

At the city gate and by your fireside I have seen you prostrate yourself and worship your own freedom, even as slaves humble themselves before a tyrant and praise him though he slays them.

Ay, in the grove of the temple and in the shadow of the citadel I have seen the freest among you wear their freedom as a yoke and a handcuff.
And my heart bled within me; for you can only be free when even the desire of seeking freedom becomes a harness to you, and when you cease to speak of freedom as a goal and a fulfillment.

You shall be free indeed when your days are not without a care nor your nights without a want and a grief, but rather when these things girdle your life and yet you rise above them naked and unbound.

And how shall you rise beyond your days and nights unless you break the chains which you at the dawn of your understanding have fastened around your noon hour?

In truth that which you call freedom is the strongest of these chains, though its links glitter in the sun and dazzle the eyes.

And what is it but fragments of your own self you would discard that you may become free?--K. Gibran The Prophet

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[Iryssa]

Okay...here's what I think about our freedom...Yes, your upbringing, your past experiences, your present and past beliefs, etc. etc. etc. (all these things combine to make your "noetic structure" and world view) will probably determine how you make any sort of decision. But these things belong to you, you are not owned by them. For instance, you've probably all figured it out by now that I am a theist, and that theism is very important to me...not only am I a theist, but I believe that this God is the God of the Christian Bible. Yup, this probably means that I will tell you "yes" if you asked me if I believe in God. I would likely tell you "no" if you asked me if I would steal something, because of this same belief in the Christian God (along with other things, of course, but I'm trying to keep this short )...Still, I have the freedom to tell you "no" to the first question and "yes" to the second. It may go against my heart and my mind and everything I believe to do so, and I have no desire whatsoever to do either, but technically, I still could.

[Nathan]

For all those who disagree:

Every choice must be decided through experience. If you have no experience of anything then you can't decide what choice to make. If you have no experiences how do you make a choice? You can't, you just have to act on instinct.
Therefore, everything you do is based on instinct and experience. Yes, you make the choices, but your experiences force you to make the choices.

Everyone seems to be big on examples, so I'll give one myself:

My careers teacher asked my which university I'd rather go to and I said I had no preference, he said I was the first person in 15 years to not care where I went. Why was this? Because I was the only person who hadn't done any research into the different universities (as a result of laziness, also caused by experience). I had no experience (and therefore knowledge) of any of them, so I couldn't make a choice. But if I had had experience of them I'd have been able to. The same goes for every choice everyone makes.

Still, I have the freedom to tell you "no" to the first question and "yes" to the second. It may go against my heart and my mind and everything I believe to do so, and I have no desire whatsoever to do either, but technically, I still could

But you don't. That's the point, you could but you don't because your experiences (your heart and your mind) have happened in such a way that you have no desire to, and therefore you will not.