The 10 Commandments

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The 10 Commandments

Post by Fist and Faith »

Darth, Darth, Darth... What am I going to do with you? :) You say that you do not believe that any god exists. That's all well and good. I feel the same way. (OK, technically, you say, "No god exists," and I say, "I don't believe any god exists." But either way, neither of us believes any god exists.) Yet you repeatedly give reasons that make you think a specific interpretation of the Christian God does not exist. Let's forget about how silly it is to even attempt to convince anyone else that there is no god in this manner. If you are able to convince yourself that no god exists by finding flaw with one particular set of beliefs, then your beliefs are as rooted in logic and science as those who believe the things you are arguing against. That is, not at all.

So let me try this. Since you have brought up the 10 Commandments a couple times that I've noticed, here's the interpretation given in Neale Donald Walsch's Conversations with God. I think this book is a phenomenal melding of some popular religions and philosophies (Christianity, Hinduism, and Taoism, to name a few), logic, and beauty. Sure, that's just my opinion. But you feel much the same about Tracie, and her faith, as I do. Keep her in mind as you read the blue, and answer my question at the end.

I have created you – blessed you – in the image and likeness of Me. And I have made certain promises and commitments to you. I have told you, in plain language, how it will be with you when you become as one with Me.

You are, as Moses was, an earnest seeker. Moses too, as do you now, stood before Me, begging for answers. “Oh, God of My Fathers,” he called. “God of my God, deign to show me. Give me a sign, that I may tell my people! How can we know that we are chosen?”

And I came to Moses, even as I have come to you now, with a divine covenant – an everlasting promise – a sure and certain commitment. “How can I be sure?” Moses asked plaintively. “Because I have told you so,” I said. “You have the Word of God.”

And the Word of God was not a commandment, but a covenant. These, then, are the…

TEN COMMITMENTS

You shall know that you have taken the path to God, and you shall know that you have found God, for there will be these signs, these indications, these changes in you:

1. You shall love God with all your heart, all your mind, all your soul. And there shall be no other God set before Me. No longer will you worship human love, or success, money, or power, nor any symbol thereof. You will set aside these things as a child sets aside toys. Not because they are unworthy, but because you have outgrown them.

And you shall know you have taken the path to God because:

2. You shall not use the name of God in vain. Nor will you call upon Me for frivolous things. You will understand the power of words, and of thoughts, and you would not think of invoking the name of God in an ungodly manner. You shall not use My name in vain because you cannot. For My name – the Great “I Am” – is never used in vain (that is, without result), nor can it ever be. And when you have found God, you shall know this.

And, I shall give you these other signs as well:

3. You shall remember to keep a day for Me, and you shall call it holy. This, so that you do not long stay in your illusion, but cause yourself to remember who and what you are. And then shall you soon call every day the Sabbath, and every moment holy.

4. You shall honor your mother and your father – and you will know you are the Son of God when you honor your Father/Mother God in all that you say or do or think. And even as you so honor the Mother/Father God, and your father and mother on Earth (for they have given you life), so, too, will you honor everyone.

5. You know you have found God when you observe that you will not murder (that is, willfully kill, without cause). For while you will understand that you cannot end another’s life in any event (all life is eternal), you will not choose to terminate any particular incarnation, nor change any life energy from one form to another, without the most sacred justification. Your new reverence for life will cause you to honor all life forms – including plants, trees and animals – and to impact them only when it is for the highest good.

And these other signs will I send you also, that you may know you are on the path:

6. You will not defile the purity of love with dishonesty or deceit, for this is adulterous. I promise you, when you have found God, you shall not commit this adultery.

7. You will not take a thing that is not your own, nor cheat, nor connive, nor harm another to have any thing, for this would be to steal. I promise you, when you have found God, you shall not steal.

Nor shall you…

8. Say a thing that is not true, and thus bear false witness.

Nor shall you…

9. Covet your neighbor’s spouse, for why would you want your neighbor’s spouse when you know all others are your spouse?

10. Covet your neighbor’s goods, for why would you want your neighbor’s goods when you know that all goods belong to the world?

You will know that you have found the path to God when you see these signs. For I promise that no one who truly seeks God shall any longer do these things. It would be impossible to continue such behaviors.

These are your freedoms, not your restrictions. These are my commitments, not my commandments. For God does not order about what God has created – God merely tells God’s children: this is how you will know that you are coming home.


Now tell me, Darth... Is Tracie afraid of going to Hell? Does she follow God's commandments because she is afraid of the punishment she'll get if she does not follow them? Or does she feel the greatest joy imaginable, which makes the thought of not living as Walsch describes a laughable notion?
All lies and jest
Still a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest
-Paul Simon

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Re: The 10 Commandments

Post by Avatar »

Fist, what an excellent post.
Fist and Faith wrote: 3. ... And then shall you soon call...every moment holy.
Either all days are holy, or none are.
Fist and Faith wrote:4. ...so, too, will you honor everyone.

5. ...you will not choose to terminate any particular incarnation, nor change any life energy from one form to another, without the most sacred justification. Your new reverence for life will cause you to honor all life forms – including plants, trees and animals – and to impact them only when it is for the highest good.

6. You will not defile the purity of love with dishonesty or deceit...


7. You will not take a thing that is not your own, nor cheat, nor connive, nor harm another to have any thing, for this would be to steal...

Nor shall you…

8. Say a thing that is not true...

9. ...when you know all others are your spouse?

10. ...all goods belong to the world?
Really excellent, and a lot of food for thought. By these considerations, you could say I've found god ;)

Perhaps not as the christians see it, but by my own lights. Substitute "enlightenment" (for lack of a better word) for "god" and we're away.

I've always thought thought that "god" may be a convenient mono-syllable for the concepts of "enlightenment". (I really don't know what else to call it.) Perhaps we can outgrow the need to credit god for it as well, shed the meaningless prejudices that human interpretations have created, and take our own rightful place in the universe.

--Avatar
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Post by Baradakas »

Wow, what a great post, Fist!! Very enlightening thoughts. It fits very well with "God is Love".
"Fortunate circumstances do not equate to high ideals."

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His response: "Holy $&!^. He's not kidding! Look at all these muffins!"
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Post by Furls Fire »

I follow God's Word because He is the Great I AM. HE is the light, and the joy, and the peace I seek. I don't fear Him. Have never feared Him. Why would I? God is love, and love is the greatest power there is. All great things come from Him. I see and feel Him all around me. He is the guiding force in my life. I do His work not because I fear Hell if I don't, but because I love Him, and know He loves me and all His children.

Hell is for those who chose Satan over Him.

And Eric, God bless you. I love that part in "Conversations with God". And for you to apply it to me???

...I love you :hearts:
And I believe in you
altho you never asked me too
I will remember you
and what life put you thru.


~fly fly little wing, fly where only angels sing~

~this world was never meant for one as beautiful as you~

...for then I could fly away and be at rest. Sweet rest, Mom. We all love and miss you.

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Re: The 10 Commandments

Post by Fist and Faith »

Tracie, you live and breath those ideas.

I love you too.
Avatar wrote:Either all days are holy, or none are.
...
By these considerations, you could say I've found god ;)
I know what you mean. And I'll try to track down the quote, but Fools Crow said something like, "All things are Holy, because all things were made by Wakan Tanka." I don't believe what Furls Fire and so many others do, but my view of things has similarities. I've posted this quote before, but here it is again. From Dan Millman's Way of the Peaceful Warrior:
One time I finished my best-ever pommel horse routine and walked over happily to take the tape off my wrists. Soc beckoned me and said, “The routine looked satisfactory, but you did a very sloppy job taking the tape off. Remember, every-moment satori.”
I don't always remember to live this way, but on good days... :D
All lies and jest
Still a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest
-Paul Simon

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Post by matrixman »

Fist, thanks for sharing this very sane interpretation of the Commandments. This idea of the 'Ten Commitments' makes sense to me.
Avatar wrote:I've always thought thought that "god" may be a convenient mono-syllable for the concepts of "enlightenment". (I really don't know what else to call it.) Perhaps we can outgrow the need to credit god for it as well, shed the meaningless prejudices that human interpretations have created, and take our own rightful place in the universe.
This also makes sense to me. I hear you, Avatar.

As for Darth...he certainly invites criticism by the way in which he phrases his arguments.
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Post by danlo »

Darth is young...
fall far and well Pilots!
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Post by Furls Fire »

God bless Darth too :)

He's trying to understand things that are for the most part beyond understanding. Faith doesn't come from "understanding". I don't understand all the ways of our Lord. But, I know He exists, because He lives in my heart. There is no other way I can explain it.

My brother probably could...
And I believe in you
altho you never asked me too
I will remember you
and what life put you thru.


~fly fly little wing, fly where only angels sing~

~this world was never meant for one as beautiful as you~

...for then I could fly away and be at rest. Sweet rest, Mom. We all love and miss you.

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Post by hamako »

If God is as he is, why does he so fervently demand worship? Don't counter by saying it's not worship, but rather recognition because that is not the case. He demands unquestioning obeyance and discipleship - maybe "my way or the highway". Why does he/it need this, and shouldn't we be questioning the validity of a being that requires this as the central path to enlightenment, if there is such a thing? I've followed Christianity long and hard, have lived in a very Christian environment for many years, studied montheism academically so I'm well familiar with all the counter arguments et al to the worship idea, but have come to the conclusion that the whole concept is fatally flawed: a godhead doesn't need worship or recognition or communion at the price of punishment and if they do, we are on the wrong track and are damned whatever. And for the believers, there's always the eternal cop out of "well that's why it's about God, how could you understand?" Convenient and impossible to argue against of course. God & worship - doesn't make sense.
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Post by Avatar »

hamako wrote:...a godhead doesn't need worship or recognition or communion at the price of punishment...
I pretty much agree with you here too. I can't imagine that a being as powerful as god is supposed to be requires our obesiance. That's why I tend to go with the idea that as long as we act in accordance with a way that is considered "good", we'll be alright, regardless of the existence (or lack thereof) of god.

--A
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Post by Fist and Faith »

hamako, I started this thread to show Darth that there are believers, and even Christians, who do NOT believe that God is what you claim he can only be. You can use those reasons to try to rule out the possibility of that God's existence. (I happen to agree with that conclusion, for those reasons.) And if I found out that that's wrong, that that God does exist, then those things make me unable to love or obey such a being.

However, that's all beside the point. My point is that there are other interpretations of God, and that not liking one specific one, or finding reason to think that a specific one could not possibly exist, does not mean that we cannot discuss other interpretations of a creator, or that no creator exists.
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And disregards the rest
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Post by Avatar »

Matrixman wrote:
Avatar wrote:I've always thought thought that "god" may be a convenient mono-syllable for the concepts of "enlightenment". (I really don't know what else to call it.) Perhaps we can outgrow the need to credit god for it as well, shed the meaningless prejudices that human interpretations have created, and take our own rightful place in the universe.
This also makes sense to me. I hear you, Avatar.
Thanks. It also ties in nicely with my personal favourite bible verse, which I've quoted before, and shall again:

John 10:34 "I tell you, and it is written in your own law, that you are gods" (My emphasis, obviously.)

The law he is referring to is Mosaic Law, and the verse is cross-referenced with one of the Psalms, (82:1) where in some translations it says "God sat in the council of gods. He passed judgement amongst the most high." (This is from memory, so may be a touch out.)

Is this a clue? Should we take from this that god is indeed only a term for "any enlightened person"? That's certainly the way I like to look at it. I mean, here we are, being told straight out that we are gods. (Although I imagine that he meant potentially.)

Perhaps there is hope for us afterall? :)

--Avatar
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Post by Revan »

heh, nice thread! :D

Right... Fist... I'll get this clear with you... I'm not usually this... forward or harsh on other peoples beliefs in the real world...

You're probably wondering why I am in this...

The answer is simple, to get a good debate in. :)

Trus, it makes me seem bad, but the debates are some amoung the best on the Watch imo... the Altruism thread was quite popular in it's prime...

True, you'll probably say "Darth, why can't you just do it in a non argumentive manner?" And you're right, but it's the only way I know how really... I lack Avatar's genius to be able to put my personal opinions forward without offending no-one...

Maybe I need to grow up... sorry if I've caused trouble. :(
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Post by Fist and Faith »

You're right. Avatar is in a class by himself.

Anyway, I'm not concerned with you causing trouble. I just ignore people who are truly trouble, and don't want to contribute in any way. I just try to make sure we all see broader pictures than we sometimes do.
All lies and jest
Still a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest
-Paul Simon

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Post by Worm of Despite »

Well, seeing the broad picture is not always important. For instance, The Kinks narrowed their musical scope in the 80s, making them a much more edgy band and also giving them a commercial renaissance. See where I'm comin' from, Fist? :shifty:
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Post by Fist and Faith »

Of course. But if you said the only music of any value was the Kinks, I'd try to help you see the value of other groups and genre.
All lies and jest
Still a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest
-Paul Simon

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Post by Avatar »

Fist and Faith wrote:You're right. Avatar is in a class by himself.
Aaaw thanks guys. :oops:

I think you all do pretty well yourselves though, so make sure you give yourselves due credit too.

--A
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Post by Fist and Faith »

I'm bumping this to show a different view of Christianity. It's too easy to assume one Christian is the same as every other. I posted this back when Darth was being pretty harsh about it all.
All lies and jest
Still a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest
-Paul Simon

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Post by Furls Fire »

Wow, blast from the past :)

And yep, Avatar is in a class all by himself. That purple mohawk of his proclaims it loud and clear :lol:
Fisty wrote:Now tell me, Darth... Is Tracie afraid of going to Hell? Does she follow God's commandments because she is afraid of the punishment she'll get if she does not follow them? Or does she feel the greatest joy imaginable, which makes the thought of not living as Walsch describes a laughable notion?
Hugglesssssssss Eric |G
And I believe in you
altho you never asked me too
I will remember you
and what life put you thru.


~fly fly little wing, fly where only angels sing~

~this world was never meant for one as beautiful as you~

...for then I could fly away and be at rest. Sweet rest, Mom. We all love and miss you.

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Post by Menolly »

*newbie to this thread*

The whole reason that there are two different versions of the 10 Commandments, the one in Exodus Chapter 20 and the one in Deuteronomy Chapter 5, has always led me to believe they were open to interpretation.
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