I agree with you Dromond, and I know that Iryssa for one is never averse to arguing her religion.
A little debate is great.
As Dromond, I am not aware of Jesus being mentioned in any of either the Roman or Jewish records of the time. Two nations renowned for their record keeping, and the bible specifically states that Jesus was present at a Roman census. Yet, to the best of my knowledge, no record exists.
Historically, there does not seem to be much evidence of christ outside of the bible.
As JemCheeta mentions, and I pointed out earlier, there is nothing wrong with the underlying (perhaps over-riding) message of the bible. It's the uses that humanity has put it to that I so strongly disapprove of.
(OK, pehaps I disapprove of parts of the message, but the basics of loving one another, and living a better life sound good to me.)
I'm all up for some debate! And when I do, you should know I have a ton of respect for all you guys who do it with such an objective tone...It's nice to know there are still people who can take this kind of debate without getting all hissy about it *grin*
I've never heard that portions of the works of Josephus have been doctored *wondering look* that's very interesting...
On a sidenote, Dromond's prolly more familiar with Josephus than I am...I've got his works on CD-Rom, but I've been finding his writings pretty daunting (as Dr. Paul Meyer put it; "Josephus' motto must have been 'why use one word when a thousand will do?'" )
Still though, Jesus is not the only one mentioned in the Bible. I know, for instance, that Josephus makes mention of the Zealots (I did a project on them in my Old Testament class), which are also mentioned in the Bible. I think there are various Roman and Jewish officials that are mentioned in both, too...point is, it's not like there's nothing that's historically accurate in the Bible.
*sigh* some days I wish I could just stuff five or ten years worth of knowledge that I haven't had a chance to glean yet into my brain...what I need is a program to learn the same way Neo learned Kung-Fu *grin*
"A choice made freely is stronger than one compelled"
- Stephen R. Donaldson's The Wounded Land
Iryssa wrote:I'm all up for some debate! And when I do, you should know I have a ton of respect for all you guys who do it with such an objective tone...It's nice to know there are still people who can take this kind of debate without getting all hissy about it *grin*
Trust me, we feel the same way about you. I must say that I think it's an even rarer attribute amongst theists, and yet here we have so much of it that you'd never guess it was rare. Thanks and congratulations to everyone.
Iryssa wrote:I've never heard that portions of the works of Josephus have been doctored *wondering look* that's very interesting...
I've also heard of this "latter-day alteration", supposedly it was to counter this very argument of lack of independant historical verification.
Iryssa wrote:*sigh* some days I wish I could just stuff five or ten years worth of knowledge that I haven't had a chance to glean yet into my brain...what I need is a program to learn the same way Neo learned Kung-Fu *grin*
I took a very interesting class at John carroll university, up here by cleveland ohio, called "Caesar and Christ:The Development Of Christianity" and it was really enlightening. It focused on the various movements in early christianity, and the mystery cults that sprung up that seem to have elements of christianity throughout. Has anyone ever read anything on the Cult of Mithras?
Start where you are,
use what you have,
do what you can.
There was a flood from which one man escaped in a specially built boat and a last supper which Mithras celebrated with the sun-god before he ascended into the heavens.
Three times a day they worshiped, with special weekly ceremonials on the day of the sun-god and with the most elaborate observance of all on the annual festival of Mithras, December twenty-fifth. It was believed that the partaking of the sacrament ensured eternal life, the immediate passing, after death, to the bosom of Mithras, there to tarry in bliss until the judgment day. On the judgment day the Mithraic keys of heaven would unlock the gates of Paradise for the reception of the faithful; whereupon all the unbaptized of the living and the dead would be annihilated upon the return of Mithras to earth. It was taught that, when a man died, he went before Mithras for judgment, and that at the end of the world Mithras would summon all the dead from their graves to face the last judgment. The wicked would be destroyed by fire, and the righteous would reign with Mithras forever.
From the Urantia Book.
The similarities aren't all that surprising however. Nearly all religious observances hold to the same theme of judgement and immortality/annihilation. However, this subject does bring up a good point. Christmas, believed by millions to be a celebration of the birth of Christ, was in fact a pagan ritual of Mithraic and sun-worshipper origin, as the 25th of December is the winter solstice.
So many pagan beliefs and rituals were slowly implemented into Christianity at that time, that very little of mainstream Christianity holds to the Truth.
The flood story doesn't mean all that much however. After all, who would believe that Noah would be the only survivor of the flood? His boat could not be the ONLY one in the world! And any pagans might have deified him as a hero of that time....
"Fortunate circumstances do not equate to high ideals."
"Mostly muffins sir."- My answer in response to the question posed by the officer, "Son, do you have anything on you I should know about?"
His response: "Holy $&!^. He's not kidding! Look at all these muffins!"
Excellent!
Hehehehe... just laughing at myself. I'm used to chat rooms, and not to message boards. In a chat room, a leading question like "has anyone ever read this" would be a fine lead in to talk about it. In a message board, it sounds like a request for someone to do research! So I apologize. Anyway, about the cult of mithras.
Thank you so much, I had forgotten about december 25th... yes a lot of mystery cult practices were incorperated. I had thought it was the Mithrains...Mithraics...Mithrites....Mithraelis......hehehe umm Those who Follow Mithras... also had a ritual in which they consumed the blood and body (ie meat) of a bull in order to reach a state of grace, which promised them eternal life...? any idea if that was the case, or if that was a seperate mystery cult? I know Isis was going strong at that time as well.
Start where you are,
use what you have,
do what you can.
No, Jem you are correct. However it bears to reason that at the time it would have been more than easy to incorporate themes in to Christianity. It would have been imperative. At the time the Christian Movement had become a tidal wave converting all before it, and there was no easier way to convert a group of people than to absorb thier beliefs into the current standard.
Examples:
Egypt: Ankh (similar shape to the cross and already a symbol of rebirth)
Greece: Diana (the 'Holy Mother and her Son')
Rome: Sol Invictus (Sun God) (Halos and converting the Holy Sabbath from Saturday to Sunday, i.e. the day of the Sun)
"Fortunate circumstances do not equate to high ideals."
"Mostly muffins sir."- My answer in response to the question posed by the officer, "Son, do you have anything on you I should know about?"
His response: "Holy $&!^. He's not kidding! Look at all these muffins!"
Especially after the Jews had ostracized the Christians, who had origionally of course been a Jewish sect. It was only after the mainline hebrew leaders rejected Jesus that the conversion attempts were turned towards the Romans, who at the time had no strong central religion. The Roman State religion, with its Pontifex Maximus, had fallen into great decline. Many of the Romans had turned to these mystery cults, seeking some kind of transcendant assurances. Really though, if you read the mythologies of the egyptions, and Isis and Osiris and Ra, you get a ressurection story that is more than vaguely familiar.
What baffles me is why many christians feel threatened when their religion is put into a historical perspective. Honestly, I think doing so gives it a concrete quality. No meaning is removed from these rituals, and I don't believe any strength is taken away from faith either.
I mean this, this is not in any way an attack, but I would like some response from others if that's possible. Thanks.
Start where you are,
use what you have,
do what you can.
I have never read the entire bible, but sometimes I wish I had. Nevertheless I feel that Baradakas has an important point on one of his earlier posts. This being that without the holy spirit the bible is not really convincing. (My assumption here as I do not find it so.)
Now I feel that the bible does not really contain anything that we could term proof in the scientific sense, but if you accept it as authority on certain matters then proof is unnecessary.
But for all you who do not believe out there (and I count myself among you, note that) if the bible is correct then we are just as sorry in all our being and life here as TC was when he first came to the Land and because we do not believe in the divine law our crimes against it can still be held to be just as ill on the day of judgement. My point? This is not a matter to be taken lightly.
"Und wenn sie mich suchen, ich halte mich in der Nähe des Wahnsinns auf." Bernd das Brot
*shrug* Personally, I don't feel threatened when Christianity is put into historical perspective; in my mind, it only adds strength to the faith knowing that it does have actualy historical background, and that the events in the Bible actually had a real setting.
I can't say I've believed Christ's birthday was actually Dec. 25th since I was a kid...maybe not even then. It's just a day where Christ's birth is recognized. In fact, I believe that the church designated Dec. 25th as the Christ Mass because of those pagan rituals; the church meant to draw attention away from the celebrations or rituals performed that day by putting their schedule in conflict with the Pagan's *grin* kind of a marketing strategy to give all those rowdy teenagers back than an alternative to going to the pagan festivals
"A choice made freely is stronger than one compelled"
- Stephen R. Donaldson's The Wounded Land
I think that Iryssa has hit on it exactly. The incorporation of pagan rituals and festivals into christianity was a clever marketing ploy.
As Baradakas implied, the easiest way to convert somebody was to say "look, it's not all that different from what you already believe."
The Mithraic religion is recognised as a primary contributor to christianity, possibly because it was so widespread in the Roman culture. It was traditionally the religion of choice for soldiers, a group which, alongside the slaves, produced the most converts to christianity from the Romans.
seems to me there's two points being argued in this thread and they're entirely separate I think:
1. does the bible contain hsitorical accuracies?
2. do you believe the spiritual implications?
If you are looking to the bible to gain spiritual insight, justification, faith, whatever, surely the historical accuracy of it is not important. Central message, God made everything, did a lot of sabre rattling in the old days, destrioed anyone and everyone who opposed him , and ensured a good deal of servitude therein. Then once his creations were ready for part two, he came down himself (as Jesus) to preach love and forgiveness as the road to salvation, got himself killed (in the guise of his "son", a man) to show how much he was willing to put on the line for us, rose from the dead (probably to make a point), did some more preaching to ensure an evangelical legacy and promptly evaporated.
For me, factual accuracy in any of this doesn't figure at all.
On the other hand, if you're not of the faith, then is any of the history certain? I'd argue that great chunks of the old testament are entirely made up, legends serving to support the Jewish faith and belief system. As previously argued, the New Testament in a lot of details remains speculative at the least. What is clear is that there are records of a Jewish sect that later formed into Christianity.
To me, it's all fictional, but does contain some very fine moral codes. Who could argue with Christ's only commandment "Love one another as I have loved you". Not bad at all.
What does stagger me (enormously) is how it has grown into such a dogmatic religion. But then the same could be said of Islam. Are we so weak of mind as a species?
Regarding the bible containing prophecy etc. It's very easy to make some broad ranging predictions if you have half a brain and an understanding of human nature and sociolgy. Certain things will always happen; war, famine, dictatorships. I've also read the book on the bible code. Makes for interesting reading but again, as I understood it, the predictions were vague - they might happen in such a timsescale, but might also be prevented. Really? Even if the bible code is correct and real, it doesn't validate the existence of god. Could have been planted by an intelligence capable of time travel - is this any more far fetched than some of the stories in the bible? I don't think so.
He came dancing across the water...what a killer...
You make some good points there Hamako. Especially in your observation that the thread actually deals with two quite seperate questions. I pretty much agree with you, especially in the sense that regardless of all else, the bible contains good and workable moral principles, that are not negated by the "Truth" or "Falsehood" of it.
hamako wrote:What does stagger me (enormously) is how it has grown into such a dogmatic religion. But then the same could be said of Islam. Are we so weak of mind as a species?
It's primarily the dogmatic nature of organised religion that I have problems with. Unfortunately, we (as a species) do seem to be that weak minded. Or rather, it was in the interests of the then powerful, that such weakness was encouraged. No despot is going to be keen on his subjects saying "Hey...What about this though?"
I think that all too frequently, Dogma has replaced the real intent of Christ (if we posit that he not only existed, but was who the bible tells us he was.) Far too many churches (and religious people) have forgotten that one, single commandment that you mention.
..yeah, My teacher for Ceaser and Christ never understood why his religious students got angry when he talked about the history of the church, and put it in a historical context that questioned, for example, how the virgin birth of christ was a relatively later addition to the history of Jesus...He always said things along the lines that the faith in the message should remain untouched, regardless of the historical implications.
Start where you are,
use what you have,
do what you can.
you probably gather that I'm an evangelical atheist (oxymoron??) - wouldn't there be a great sense of irony if it were all true and the reasons that atheists form their opinions is due to the despotic (to continue your erudite vein Avatar!) preachings of the Christian churches, especially the Catholics. Your point is so valid regarding the virgin birth Jemcheeta. IT was a myth propogated by the medieval catholic church - they developed this cult of Mary the Virgin that somehow gave them an alternate female focus necessitated by their celibacy. Notice how the insistence that Mary remained a virgin all her life is not part of any Christian faith other than the Catholics. OK, I may be being harsh, but I think I'm on the right track.
I was brought up a Roman Catholic, went through all the charismatic renewal business etc, studied the scriptures and then had a sort of reverse road to Damascus trip at a funeral in my late twenties. I felt as though I'd had a baptism in secularism, had some very thick sunglasses removed and could now see the world as it really is. Bloody great.
He came dancing across the water...what a killer...
And when I do, you should know I have a ton of respect for all you guys who do it with such an objective tone...It's nice to know there are still people who can take this kind of debate without getting all hissy about it *grin*
