Some Speculation on the Metaphysics of the Land's Reality

[Lord Wombat]

I've been lurking a while, reading things, and just finished a re-read of the Chronicles in anticipation of picking up Runes of the Earth at Christmas time. Or earlier if my will breaks and I forgo some food. ^^;;

Anyway, I was thinking about the various evidence for whether the Land is real or a dream or what.

Things which support the Dream Theory:
Covenant, who is experiencing it all, thinks this.
Covenant is twice cured of his leprosy on coming to the Land, but it's back when he returns to his world. (Interestingly, when Covenant tries growing the beard in Illearth War, he never seems to think that the return of his leprosy is proof enough. You'd think nerves going dead again would be as much proof as a beard.)
Covenant's body clearly remains in 'reality', and things happen to it while he is in the Land.


Things which support the Land is Real:
In the real world, which Covenant's world is supposed to be, people do not share dreams. Hile Troy can be written off as Covenant's Dream, but Linden Avery can't.
Whether Linden having the ring at the end demonstrates this is not clear, but can be taken this way.
The Old Man/Creator could have been a coincidence once, but him showing up twice, the second time after a ten year gap, makes it much less plausible to see his statements and actions as coincidence.
A large chunk of the Illearth War is narrated from Hile Troy's perspective. This would seem to insinuate that he is also real, which means we'd have to assume three different people tapped into the same dream, and dreams don't work like that.
Covenant dies by the end of WGW, but the Land survives his death in our world.

One is faced with a paradox. Things happen which would seem impossible if the land is real (Covenant's body doesn't transition and things happen to him, yet he is perfectly solid and real seeming in the land), and others do not match our mundane reality in which Covenant is supposed to live (people don't share dreams).


However, after much thinking on this, I have created a theory, though no doubt, it will be annhilated by the events of the final quadrology.

Rather than thinking in terms of Dream/Reality or of parallel universes of equal weight, I am thinking in terms of the ideas of some medieval scholastics, of layers and degrees of reality emanating down from some higher ground of reality.

I know I will explain this poorly, but...

Basically, think of reality as a series of layers of existence, emanating downwards from 'God' (who is not necessarily the Judeo-Christian God for this argument, just a way of naming the fount of reality). This being is the most real and perfect thing. As you move down through the layers which emanate from him, each becomes less real and less perfect. Beings from higher layers are more 'real' than those below, and may seem godlike in comparison to them.

Thus, Covenant transcends the laws of the Land because he is the White Gold, because he comes from a higher level of reality. His mind/soul can travel to the Land, which is at a lower level of reality, and become as solid there as any of its inhabitants. And he has, once he chooses to use it, godlike power. Meanwhile, those of the lower level cannot travel to the higher levels, because they are not real enough.

Because the Land is an objectively other place, multiple people from our reality can visit it; it doesn't just exist inside Covenant's head. But they visit in the spirit, not the flesh. But being higher-order beings, that makes them as solid as anyone else.

The Creator and the Despiser are also clearly higher-order beings. The Creator, able to manifest in Covenant's universe, is at least of the same order as Covenant and possibly higher--given he offers to cure Covenant's leprosy in the 'real world', probably higher even.

(Covenant identifies the Despiser as his own dark side, but the Despiser is so utterly pretentious and stuck on himself that he never quite felt like Covenant's dark side to me. But that's another topic.)


Anyway, out of time for the day, but there's my rambling thoughts.

[matrixman]

That's a thought-provoking idea, Lord Wombat. It might be crazy enough to be true! Thanks for sharing your thoughts with us...and welcome to the Watch!

Covenant dies by the end of WGW, but the Land survives his death in our world.

Good point. Maybe the "dream" of the Land was kept alive in Linden's mind, even though Covenant had "died." (No, it's not some goofy spoiler for Runes; haven't read it yet.)

[Lord Wombat]

That's a thought-provoking idea, Lord Wombat. It might be crazy enough to be true! Thanks for sharing your thoughts with us...and welcome to the Watch!

Thanks. I've lurked here, off and on, for quite a while, but I finally registered when I was hit by an idea I just had to share with someone who would actually care, instead of bugging those around me with ideas on books no one but me has read

I first read the first trilogy way back in the early eighties, but this particular solution only finally hit me just now.

[duchess of malfi]

Welcome, Lord Wombat. Your post has great food for thought.

[UrLord]

Interesting theory, but I just have one problem with it:

Whenever Covenant leaves the Land in the first Chronicles, the Land is described as becomming too "real," too "hard," or simply "too much" for his senses to bear, and he ceases to register it any more...indicating that perhaps the Land is more powerful or more real than the "real world." As to why people can travel from the "real world" to the Land but not vice-versa...using this theory it could be explained that the Land has the power to add substance (or reality) to people, but the denizens of the Land cannot do the same thing because, possibly, they are too "big" for the "real world." Imagine trying to inhabit the realm of a sheet of paper on which all kinds of weak little mini-people scurry about...that sort of thing.

As much as I don't think Donaldson intended any of this, it's still something interesting to think about in terms of "filling in the blanks" that Donaldson never wrote in.

[ur-James]

Excellent post! But I really like the idea that he set forth in Lord Foul's Bane, when the old man hands him the note. The way I look at it, the debate as to whether the Land is real or not (we know it is real as Linden Avery experienced it in the 2nd and Last Chrons), is not the issue. I don't have the book in front of me, but the note the old man gave to TC in LFB basically asked what is morally right.

You find yourself in a land that cannot be real, yet depends on you for its very existence. Do you help? I look at the moral question of what you do. Whether or not the Land is real is beside the point. It's what you do, the choices you make, the actions you take, that are the real issue.

I'm not sure if that came across okay or not. But after re-reading the Chrons, that chapter, that note that the old man handed him in the very beginning is what I think the entire series is about. Your perception of truth is not under debate. It's what you decide to do that counts.

James

[Avatar]

Whether or not the Land is real is beside the point. It's what you do, the choices you make, the actions you take, that are the real issue.

Well said. I agree completely. It's a question of morailty, not reality. To be true to yourself is to act the same way, regardless of whether what you are experiencing is an illusion or not.

--Avatar

[PitchDude]

I have to lump in with AcousticJames and Avatar, and I *think* SRD has made the point as well - the 'reality' of the Land is irrelevant. At the risk of butchering a quote from him, "In reality as in dreams, what matters is the answers we find in our hearts to the test of Despite."

Jim

[aliantha]

Cool idea, LW!

Another thing I thought of while reading your post, in favor of it being a dream: Yes, multiple people from the "real world" have gone to the Land in the 1st and 2d Chrons. But they've never been in a position to compare notes. TC can't find Hile Troy; and by the time Linden gets back, at the end of WGW, TC is dead.

It'll be interesting to see how SRD maintains this paradox in the Last Chrons.

And btw, I agree with AcousticJames, Av and PitchDude -- the point is that it doesn't matter where you are, you must "be true" to your convictions.

[Xar]

Interesting theory, but I just have one problem with it:

Whenever Covenant leaves the Land in the first Chronicles, the Land is described as becomming too "real," too "hard," or simply "too much" for his senses to bear, and he ceases to register it any more...indicating that perhaps the Land is more powerful or more real than the "real world." As to why people can travel from the "real world" to the Land but not vice-versa...using this theory it could be explained that the Land has the power to add substance (or reality) to people, but the denizens of the Land cannot do the same thing because, possibly, they are too "big" for the "real world." Imagine trying to inhabit the realm of a sheet of paper on which all kinds of weak little mini-people scurry about...that sort of thing.

I always considered that fact (that at the end of every summoning, the Land and its inhabitants grow more and more solid) from another point of view... As it was said in LFB, "Look, he's fading!" - the summoned creature fades out of the Land when the summoning finishes: therefore, while he fades, from his own perception things that aren't fading become more solid, of course. Which means that, if a person from the Land were hypothetically to be summoned in TC's world and then the summoning would finish, then that person, too, would "fade" and see everything growing more solid around him/her as he/she goes back to the Land.

The fact that there is a black gulf between the worlds is also rather interesting - and so is the fact that the summoned creature spends a subjective amount of time there (enough for TC and the Creator to talk at the end of the FC, and for TC and LA to talk at the end of the SC). The gulf between worlds is also mentioned by the Lords to Mhoram when they discuss how to summon TC without the Staff of Law, by the way.

If the Land is real, then it could both be a lower level of reality, or a different plane at all; we have really no way to decide which is the truth, but then, as SRD himself says, it's not the reality of the Land that is important, but whether you are true to yourself when faced by a moral choice.

Oh, while it is true that the three people from TC's world can't compare notes, that doesn't mean that any of them is any less real than others: for example, as far as I can recall, Covenant, Linden and Hile Troy are the only people from whose POV the various chapters are written, while chapters that don't contain any of them are written from a point of view that doesn't match perfectly any character in them. Plus, as stated elsewhere, if Hile Troy worked on "sensitive issues" in the Department of Defence, it'd be rather natural that they wouldn't disclose such informations to Covenant.

And let's also recall that at the end of The One Tree, Linden returns to their native world for a few moments, enough to check Covenant's body, realize his will to live isn't there, throw herself in the flames and force Covenant (in the Land's world) to snatch her back. Therefore, when she returns to herself in her native world, she is no longer dreaming or hallucinating (especially since what she sees matches exactly what she sees when she returns at the end of WGW - Covenant dying turns out to be dead, for example). If she is not dreaming at the time, then the fact that she feels wild magic even then, and uses that connection to prevent being closed off from the Land's world (and then, to make sure Covenant realizes she's in danger and snatches her back) implies strongly that they aren't sharing a dream at all.

[W.B.]

I'll go with both general arguments. Though re: the Land being a higher or lower level of reality/plane of existence, I might suggest they may be simply be incompatible, with different laws governing them. Though subjectively, the Land, where people have demi-magic powers and a connection with earth/earthpower, seems "higher," at least in terms of metaphysical access to law and lore and eldritch powers and so on.

But, as an aside, I'm now thinking maybe the reason no one from the Land came to Covenant's reality is because no one in his reality knows how to (or could know, or even could) summon someone from the Land into Covenant's reality. Somehow the Creator can move between planes, and Foul gets his eyes at least into reality pretty regularly, but I think that's it.... I mean, people don't seem to send themselves anywhere, they must be summoned.

Finally, though it's interesting to think about, I definitely agree with those above, that it isn't that maybe the the Land is real or maybe it's not, but that conscience and choice and moral choices do exist, no mater what reality they occur in. Covenant finally acts to protect the Land, but in order to do so, he doesn't necessarily have to admit to its reality, only the importance of it to him and of the actions he takes in it. (I felt the Land's reality was left ambiguous in the First Chronicles, but in the Second Chronicles it did seem it was very real, and anyway, that was no longer the central question.)

[The Dreaming]

Hmm, totally off topic, but W.B., Isn't what your sig describes called Doublethink in Newspeak?

Anyway, I have come to believe (from the perspective of first chrons at least) that it doesn't matter whether the land is real or not. That is the source of Covenant's power at the end of TPTP. He realizes the existence of an objective morality.

Any of you remember the fundamental question of ethics? What the question asked was (summarized) "will a man put in a reality that cannot exist act in a way that he considers "good" or will he deny the existence of said reality and hold no ethics". I think the soul of this question is "is there an objective morality".

Covenant finally realizes this at the end of TPTP. He realizes, not so much that the land is both real and unreal, but that it doesn't matter if the land is real or not. His actions will have meaning regardless. One's moral character is determined internally, not by how your actions actually *affect* people.

I put a post on essentially this exact topic on a thread that quickly died. Shameful.

[Aleksandr]

for example, as far as I can recall, Covenant, Linden and Hile Troy are the only people from whose POV the various chapters are written, while chapters that don't contain any of them are written from a point of view that doesn't match perfectly any character in them.

Several chapters in TPTP were written from Mhoram's POV.

[wayfriend]

Whenever Covenant leaves the Land in the first Chronicles, the Land is described as becomming too "real," too "hard," or simply "too much" for his senses to bear, and he ceases to register it any more...indicating that perhaps the Land is more powerful or more real than the "real world."

I cannot believe that no one has yet pointed out that

In the Platonic sense, the Land is *more* real than Covenant's "real world." So characters from Covenant's "real world" can expand into the Land, but characters from the Land cannot shrink into Covenant's "real world".

And so you are on the right track here I guess.

[Thaale]

Things which support the Dream Theory:

I would place first and foremost, Occam’s Razor. You fall down unconscious. You experience many events in your mind which are impossible by all the laws of science. You awake in a hospital. It’s not even a 50-50 proposition. Of course it’s a dream.


Things which support the Land is Real:
In the real world, which Covenant's world is supposed to be, people do not share dreams. Hile Troy can be written off as Covenant's Dream, but Linden Avery can't.

As aliantha points out, none of those three characters have ever been in a position to compare notes back in the Real World. To Linden, she could have created it all in her head, including Covenant relating his supposed past adventures.


The Old Man/Creator could have been a coincidence once, but him showing up twice, the second time after a ten year gap, makes it much less plausible to see his statements and actions as coincidence.

Why couldn’t Linden and Covenant each encounter the same old man in their town? This proves nothing about the Land.


A large chunk of the Illearth War is narrated from Hile Troy's perspective. This would seem to insinuate that he is also real, which means we'd have to assume three different people tapped into the same dream, and dreams don't work like that.

Doesn’t follow at all. We don’t know what the narration is supposed to be, or how we are supposed to accept White Gold Wielder, for instance, in our world. Is it supposed to be the product of Linden Avery writing it down and publishing it?


Covenant dies by the end of WGW, but the Land survives his death in our world.

Again, if Linden is imagining the whole thing, this doesn’t apply.

If SRD can be given any credence here, you are not supposed to be able to resolve the question either way from the evidence available.

[Xar]

If SRD can be given any credence here, you are not supposed to be able to resolve the question either way from the evidence available.

I wouldn't say that... he never said, as far as I remember, that we do not have enough elements to resolve the question. He simply said that the Land's reality is no longer an issue, and that he shifted the focus of the story with the Second Chronicles.

And I would also like to point out that while all of your evidence points at the dream story, they still do not explain several things:

1) if the Land is all a dream, what entity forced all the "repentants" to burn their hands in the fire, at the beginning of the Second Chronicles?

2) On the same topic, if Foul himself was part of the dream, who is the entity appearing in the sacrificial fire?

In the real world, which Covenant's world is supposed to be, people do not share dreams. Hile Troy can be written off as Covenant's Dream, but Linden Avery can't.

As aliantha points out, none of those three characters have ever been in a position to compare notes back in the Real World. To Linden, she could have created it all in her head, including Covenant relating his supposed past adventures.

3) The above doesn't consider the fact that the FIRST chronicles did not include Linden. Therefore, since Covenant experienced the Land by his own during the First Chronicles, and he never had a chance to tell Linden about it before being killed, it follows that Linden's experience of the Land (the Second Chronicles) cannot be written off as a delusion or a simple dream she had - if nothing else, because there are far too many things that are familiar with the Land of the First Chronicles, and of which Linden could not conceivably have any notion of (for example, aliantha, the haruchai, Revelstone, Mithil Stonedown, Kevin's Watch, wild magic... and events such as Lena's rape, which Covenant relates after being translated to the Land, and which we know from the First Chronicles as something he actually experienced).

4) One of the much-discussed issues in the forum: if the Land is all a dream and Linden was just unconscious while Covenant died, how does it happen that she ended up holding Covenant's wedding ring in her hand at the end of the Second Chronicles, while he had it on his finger at the beginning?

5) Who was "in Joan's head" and forced her to drink Covenant's blood at the beginning of the First Chronicles? This entity released its grip on Joan as soon as Covenant accepted to take Joan's place - BEFORE he was stabbed.

Beware! "Runes" spoiler follows!

Spoiler

6) EVEN IF all of that could be somehow chalked up to a dream (and I find it hard to do), there still would be need to explain the events at the beginning of "Runes"... among them the strange lightning storm which heralded Linden's return to the Land, Roger's "allegiance", his power over his mother, Jeremiah's Revelstone and Mount Thunder...

With all this evidence, I find it hard to believe that the Land is just a dream. It is a self-contained reality, maybe - the reason for which SRD already described well in the GI:

In the Platonic sense, the Land is *more* real than Covenant's "real world." So characters from Covenant's "real world" can expand into the Land, but characters from the Land cannot shrink into Covenant's "real world".

So, everything that happens to someone in Covenant's "real world" is translated to the Land along with the person it happened to (Covenant's forehead wound, swollen lip, leprosy, knife wound...), because it can "expand" into the Land, while all that happens to the summoned being into the Land cannot be translated back to the "real world" because it cannot "shrink" and fit into it (effects of hurtloam, and so on).

So, my opinion is that the Land belongs to a self-contained reality which can be reached only under certain circumstances, and no part of the Land's reality can be brought back into the "real world".

And anyway, it's no longer an issue, in SRD's own words [/b]

[Thaale]

Xar wrote:

1) if the Land is all a dream, what entity forced all the "repentants" to burn their hands in the fire, at the beginning of the Second Chronicles?

Yes, but kooks do things like that in our world (Linden's world?) and we don't conclude from that the The Land exists.

2) On the same topic, if Foul himself was part of the dream, who is the entity appearing in the sacrificial fire?

If you can dream The Land, you can first have a vision of seeing a face in a fire. Maybe someone threw some peyote on the fire or something.

As aliantha points out, none of those three characters have ever been in a position to compare notes back in the Real World. To Linden, she could have created it all in her head, including Covenant relating his supposed past adventures.

3) The above doesn't consider the fact that the FIRST chronicles did not include Linden. Therefore, since Covenant experienced the Land by his own during the First Chronicles, and he never had a chance to tell Linden about it before being killed, it follows that Linden's experience of the Land (the Second Chronicles) cannot be written off as a delusion or a simple dream she had...

Yes, but I touched on this in my prior post. It depends on what status we the readers are to grant to Lord Foul's Bane, White Gold Wielder, etc. To those who have access to both series, both sets of experiences (Covenant's original ones and Linden's later ones) have to be granted the same level of credibility. Yes, the combination of the two stories shows both adventures to be equally real. We resolve that in the Real, Real World by ascribing both to SRD's imagination.

But one level down, in her "Real World," Linden doesn't have access to LFB.

I'm not really sure what the question is. If it's, does The Land exist, then of course not. If the question is, is The Land a fictional creation within the fictional world of Covenant and Linden, or is it a real locale within the fictional world of TC and LA, then I don't think the question has a meaningful answer.

4) One of the much-discussed issues in the forum: if the Land is all a dream and Linden was just unconscious while Covenant died, how does it happen that she ended up holding Covenant's wedding ring in her hand at the end of the Second Chronicles, while he had it on his finger at the beginning?

That wouldn't convince TC himself of much, would it? He was hurt, Linden went to help him, she blacked out, when she woke up she was holding his ring. The fact that she has no memory of acquiring it doesn't prove she did so in an alternate world.

5) Who was "in Joan's head" and forced her to drink Covenant's blood at the beginning of the First Chronicles? This entity released its grip on Joan as soon as Covenant accepted to take Joan's place - BEFORE he was stabbed.

Beginning of the Second Chronicles, you meant. See points one and two. Mental illness is not proof of alternate realities. Say you're Linden. You meet TC. You see Joan and her behavior, and you hear TC's very sketchy explanation (no mention of Foul, obviously). He goes on about possession.

Later you get knocked out, you have a dream, your subconscious fills in the blanks based on the very little that TC said. How does that prove anything to you about the reality of the Land once you wake up?

Spoiler

6) Jeremiah's Revelstone and Mount Thunder...

Spoiler

Well, that's big of course. That's the potential smoking gun. Unless Linden has been in the habit of talking about such places in front of J (which she probably has ), including detailed architectural descriptions. But I agree that that would serve to prove it to her.

[Xar]

Xar wrote:

1) if the Land is all a dream, what entity forced all the "repentants" to burn their hands in the fire, at the beginning of the Second Chronicles?

Yes, but kooks do things like that in our world (Linden's world?) and we don't conclude from that the The Land exists.

Except that afterwards the "repentants" didn't seem to be crazy (as Berensford himself says at the end of the S.C.) and that it seems a little strange that ALL of them were locked in the same delusion of being commanded by a master.

2) On the same topic, if Foul himself was part of the dream, who is the entity appearing in the sacrificial fire?

If you can dream The Land, you can first have a vision of seeing a face in a fire. Maybe someone threw some peyote on the fire or something.

Er... no. Not at all. First of all, I don't get why the fact that someone could possibly dream the Land automatically means one could also be subject to seeing visions in fires. Besides, apart from the fact that you would have needed an inordinate amount of hallucinogens (considering they were to be burnt, in a large bonfire, in an open area, and Linden was far from the fire when the entity appeared), there is nothing proving they DID use hallucinogens. It's even impossible to consider the entity a hallucination provoked by shock or something, since Linden hadn't even been discovered yet. And finally, since we must acknowledge that the First Chronicles are just as valid as the Second, how would you explain the entity's resemblance to the Lord Foul described at the end of the First Chronicles?

As aliantha points out, none of those three characters have ever been in a position to compare notes back in the Real World. To Linden, she could have created it all in her head, including Covenant relating his supposed past adventures.

3) The above doesn't consider the fact that the FIRST chronicles did not include Linden. Therefore, since Covenant experienced the Land by his own during the First Chronicles, and he never had a chance to tell Linden about it before being killed, it follows that Linden's experience of the Land (the Second Chronicles) cannot be written off as a delusion or a simple dream she had...

Yes, but I touched on this in my prior post. It depends on what status we the readers are to grant to Lord Foul's Bane, White Gold Wielder, etc. To those who have access to both series, both sets of experiences (Covenant's original ones and Linden's later ones) have to be granted the same level of credibility. Yes, the combination of the two stories shows both adventures to be equally real. We resolve that in the Real, Real World by ascribing both to SRD's imagination.

But one level down, in her "Real World," Linden doesn't have access to LFB.

Exactly my point. In her "Real World", Linden doesn't have access to ANY of Covenant's memories of his experience in the Land. Therefore, how can she dream a "sequel" to Covenant's previous dream of 10 years before? On the other hand, WE readers MUST consider both First and Second Chronicles with the same degree of truth, which means that we have to acknowledge that whatever Covenant experiences in the First Chronicles is just as valid as Linden's experiences in the Second Chronicles, and stands on its own. Therefore:

-SINCE we know for a fact that Covenant and Linden never got a chance for him to extensively describe the full story of his adventures in the Land before being summoned;

-IF the experience of the Land he has had (and which isn't "filtered" through anyone else's eyes in the book - i.e. there's no fictional character who is relating Covenant's story) involves places called Revelstone, Mithil Stonedown, Kiril Threndor, Sarangrave Flat, Coercri, Andelain, Haruchai and so on;

-IF Linden's experience of the Land ALSO involves places called Revelstone, Mithil Stonedown, Kiril Threndor, Sarangrave Flat, Coercri, Andelain, Haruchai and so on;

-IF Covenant's experience of the Land involves specific characters such as Mhoram, Elena, Bannor, Foamfollower, Lord Foul;

-IF Linden's experience of the Land ALSO involves such specific characters;

-GIVEN THAT the chance that names such as Mithil Stonedown, Kiril Threndor, Coercri, Andelain and Haruchai were "made up" by Covenant's mind (in the First Chronicles) and then independently by Linden's mind (in the Second Chronicles) is negligible, since (with the possible exception of "Stonedown") they are not English words at all;

-GIVEN THAT the chance that the specific characters described above were "made up" independently by Covenant and Linden is negligible since their actions and words are consistent between the two sets of Chronicles;

It follows that the chance of the Land being a dream independently made up first by Covenant and then ten years later by Linden is even less than negligible.

Oh, and while obviously the issue of the Land's reality is a moot point for OUR "universe", I thought that we were supposed to discuss whether the Land is real in Covenant's "universe".

4) One of the much-discussed issues in the forum: if the Land is all a dream and Linden was just unconscious while Covenant died, how does it happen that she ended up holding Covenant's wedding ring in her hand at the end of the Second Chronicles, while he had it on his finger at the beginning?

That wouldn't convince TC himself of much, would it? He was hurt, Linden went to help him, she blacked out, when she woke up she was holding his ring. The fact that she has no memory of acquiring it doesn't prove she did so in an alternate world.

I could buy that if the ring was easily reachable and acquireable; but since we have no reason to believe Linden is able to sleepwalk while unconscious, and since the ring was on Covenant's finger as he was killed, and since Linden wasn't found lying on Covenant's body, but a bit apart from it, then we need a plausible explanation for an unconscious person who spontaneously moves over to a corpse, removes a ring from its lifeless finger, holds it tight in her hand, lumbers back a few steps away, and falls once again on the ground.

5) Who was "in Joan's head" and forced her to drink Covenant's blood at the beginning of the First Chronicles? This entity released its grip on Joan as soon as Covenant accepted to take Joan's place - BEFORE he was stabbed.

Beginning of the Second Chronicles, you meant. See points one and two. Mental illness is not proof of alternate realities. Say you're Linden. You meet TC. You see Joan and her behavior, and you hear TC's very sketchy explanation (no mention of Foul, obviously). He goes on about possession.

Later you get knocked out, you have a dream, your subconscious fills in the blanks based on the very little that TC said. How does that prove anything to you about the reality of the Land once you wake up?

See above point: if your subconscious fills in the blanks in a manner entirely consistent with Covenant's own experience, down to the smaller points (even the position and appearance of the stairs from Kevin's Watch, or the appearance of the houses in Mithil Stonedown, or the way a Waynhim looks like) then what's going on? There is no chance on Earth two people could make independent dreams so entirely consistent with each other, especially if they never talked about such dreams or what they experienced in it.

Spoiler

6) Jeremiah's Revelstone and Mount Thunder...

Spoiler

Well, that's big of course. That's the potential smoking gun. Unless Linden has been in the habit of talking about such places in front of J (which she probably has ), including detailed architectural descriptions. But I agree that that would serve to prove it to her.

[/quote]

Spoiler

Well, I could suppose Linden extensively told Jeremiah about Revelstone and Mount Thunder. But down to the finest architectural descriptions? To each of Revelstone's windows, and Mount Thunder's roots? I don't know... When I tell a story to someone, I don't spend fifteen hours at least describing a fortress

Therefore, this should not just "prove it to her", but it should also be proof enough - combined with all my previous points - that the Land is just as "real" as Covenant's and Linden's reality to them.

[Thaale]

Xar, as I acknowledged, for anyone with access to both Chronicles, we definitely have independent verification of The Land’s reality (TC + LA). But I didn’t think that meant much, since what we actually have above all that is knowledge that SRD made it up anyway.

I really thought the point was whether either Linden or TC could resolve the issue either way. And I still think that nothing prior to the spoiler-protected revelation allowed either of them to do so.

I see what you’re saying about the ring, but it raises more questions than it answers. If TC transfers the ring to LA in The Land, and that means it’s in her hand in the Real World, why doesn’t TC wake up at the end of TPTP wearing whatever he was dressed in in The Land (that gown the Unfettered One dressed him in?)

All I’m saying is that I think if I were Linden, I would think I had dreamed it all and that I just couldn’t remember precisely how I had ended up with Covenant’s ring.

The point of the face in the fire is that I don’t think two occurrences that are each unlikely or supernatural by Real World standards reinforce each other. Again, be Linden Avery, a woman with a medical degree, a scientist. She thinks she sees a face in a fire (not possible). She has a dream of an impossible realm. Does either event make the reality of the other more likely? It’s like saying, last night I saw a ghost, and then I had a dream and the ghost was in it. If you told someone that, would they conclude that the combination of the two events made the reality of the ghost more likely?

I think that SRD gradually became less interested in the belief/unbelief dichotomy as the attention shifted to Linden. Linden was never the Unbeliever and never had to be to defeat the Sunbane, nor was she threatened by leprosy running rampant if she dared to believe in The Land and relax her guard.

[drew]

Okay everybody's posts seem very deep in this one...here's one to lighten it up.

I took the kids to see The Polar Express today...the moral of the movie was If you Beleive in something strongly enough, then it's true...at least true to YOU.

I got thinking of other children's films with this same message...The Neverending Story..or Labrynth. Even though the events should have seemed impossible to the charactors...in the end they beleived in them so greatly, that they could have been nothing but real. This is Covenants realization at the end of the first chrns...He knew that this wasn't real...but he also knew that it was real.

It's funny, the kids pick up on this concept no problem, why do we find it such a hard time saying that the Land is BOTH real, and unreal?