Haruchai

[TincupCPG]

Lemme respond to this one. The Lords and loremasters after learning about Earthpower, etc stopped their slaughter of the forests. They did their best to encourage it's growth and restore what they could. The Lords were not as mighty as the previous Lords due to fact that their Oath of Peace prevented them from understanding and using all 7 of Kevin's Wards. They did what they could to help restore the Land, especially after the Staff of Law was recovered from Drool Rockworm. The People of the Land did NOT bring Foul with them at all. He was cast down by the Creator.

Now, taken literally, your last sentance does not really make sense. I mean no insult. It is just that without people in the Land, what are the reasons for writing the books? Lord Foul destroying the empty Land for what purpose? The Creator cannot reach down through the Arch of Time to stop him. So, he has fun killing off a beautiful and magical land. In order to have these books written there has to be people in the Land to feed Lord Foul's aims to break out. Without people there, there is nothing.

Taken the way I think you meant it, I can see your point. However, the Land deserves and prospered for many of it's years. It is Lord Foul that creates the problems that the Lords fought back with using Earthower and Law. And misusing it, as it turns out. Which is why the Haruchai have banned the use or even the knowledge of Earthpower and Law and Lord Foul himself from the people of the land. *out of breath*

[Fist and Faith]

Tincup, you may as well talk to a wall. Taiga's not known for listening to reason. Once a Forestal, always a Forestal, eh?

[TincupCPG]

Forestal? never saw that until you pointed it out. OK.

Well, let's discuss something I have been thinking abt for a few days. I touched on it briefly in a diff post. What about this "coincidence" that Kevin's Dirt blinds people from Earthsite? Hard to believe that THAT happened accidentally given the fact the the Masters are withholding all Power and knowledge from the poeple. Curious. Now, no way in hell the Haruchai created it, we all know that. However, there are a couple of possible scenarios for it being there. One, Avery (shudders) caused it herself when she took the Staff of Law from the past. That means the 3 thousand years it would have been hidden--but still NATURALLY--upholding the Law as best it could without being wielded, are missing. No Staff. 2) It is something created by an unknown party (I do NOT think it was Foul) to actually help the Haruchai in their chosen task of repression.
Could it be one of the "posessors" of Anele? If it is a Elohym, which someone mentioned, then possibly that entity placed it there to help the Haruchai. And by "help" i do not mean that in a good way. At least 2 of the posessors of Anele are not very nice guys, y' know?

[duchess of malfi]

I've always thought that the haruchai were pretty strong in earthpower themselves, in their ability to mindmeld, the earthpower listening to them and sealing their Bloodguard Vow, now with their ability to see when no one else in the Land can...

I do think that they are unwittingly serving the Despiser. And the irony of three of them in each generation becoming a halfhand like the three Corrupted Bloodguard is not lost on me.

Might it even be one of those three that the Elohim meant with their warning of "Beware the Halfhand" rather than Covenant, Jeremiah, or Berek?

[TincupCPG]

Trouble is: We have entirely too many people running around with a halfhand!! 3 Haruchai, Covenant (if it is him) Jeremiah....on and on and on. The Haruchai have always been "different". They were immune to the Sunbane, have tremendous physical skill and strength. They have always had the "sight" except for The Second Chronicles. I don't think that they are Earthpower strong, tho. The Vow itself came from such passion and faith and willpower that it responded basically by "accident". Now that is a different story altogether even by itself. When they swore the Vow, they did not invoke the Earthpower, it responded to the Vow itself. Which means the Haruchai DID, in fact, use Earthpower one time. Admittedly not on purpose.

And yes they are definatley serving Foul. By witholding all the knowledge of him and Earthpower from the people, they have created one hell of a mess. And speaking of curiosities..look at my above post about Kevin's Dirt. Doesn't affect the haruchai, now does it? Certainly aids them in their duties of repressing knowledge, doesn't it? Like I said, Kevin's Dirt is there for a specific reason, I believe to "help" the Haruchai. Which means it was created by someone with a dangerous intent.

[[Syl]]

The One Forest was the most glorious, beautiful life form the Earth has ever seen, and humans using Earthpower had nothing to do with its life. They did, however, have everything to do with its death. Them and the ravers and Despiser that they brought with them. Later humans, wielding mighty Earthpower, certainly did not bring it back, nor anything to compare.

Guided by his decision, Councils for generations after him had used and served, performing wonders. Trothgard had been brought back to health. All the old forests-Grimmerdhore, Morinmoss, Garroting Deep, Giant Woods-had thrived to such an extent that Caerroil Wildwood, the Forestal of Garroting Deep, had believed his labor ended at last, and had passed away; and even the darkest trees had lost much of their enmity for the people of the Land.

Are we more wise than Wildwood, Taiga? I know I am not. The humans can effect much good, more than we can beyond our borders, anyway.

[Fist and Faith]

Tincup, it wouldn't surprise me if the Earthpower did, indeed, respond to Haruchai desire, and make Kevin's Dirt for them. They swore the Vow, and it gave them what they needed to do the job as well as was conceivable. Now they have a different desire, to keep people from learning about Earthpower, and maybe the Earthpower gave them this new means to do it as well as possible. With SRD, you just never know.

[Taiga Tzu]

Are we more wise than Wildwood, Taiga? I know I am not. The humans can effect much good, more than we can beyond our borders, anyway.

Come now, Brother, you knew Wildwood as well as I did. He was powerful, to be sure. Staggeringly so. But wise? I think even he might chuckle at that. No, I do not expect humans to ever leave the Land entirely, but I can suggest it from time to time, can I not?

[TincupCPG]

Fist, you have raised the ONE factor that we can never be fully assured of. We do not have any real idea where SRD is going to take us this time. He never takes the easy or obvious path, so the next 3 books are gonna be something.

Now, personally I think there is no way the Earthpower responded to such actions by the Masters. True, thousands of years ago they swore a Vow wich did get a response from Earthpower. This is not same thing. I honestly feel that (now follow along closely) if Avery taking the Staff from the past to the present did weaken the Earthpower some, then someone (not Foul) caused the beginnings of Kevin's Dirt. However, I also feel at same time that someone powerful enough to start Kevin's Dirt in spite of the Earthpower being "healthy", then they certainly did not need the absence of the Staff to accomplish their goal. It is someone who WANTS the same thing as the Haruchai...but for very different reasons. It is becuase of that that i say the Haruchai are being manipulated and are serving despite although they will not recognize that. I mean, just having the Staff of Law in the Land does not really aid against despite. That has been shown several times. It needs to be used and shaped. It does support the Earthpower becuase that is it's nature.

Now picture this one: The Elohim as we all know do not trust or like Covenant in the least. If one were to see what the Masters were trying to do, and this entity were powerful enough, they could forecast the return of Avery...AND COVENANT to the Land. Since Lord Foul supposedly has done little to the Land (we'll see) then this entity acted. The Elohim know that Covenant will destroy the Arch of Time as well as everything else. So, an Elohim might have acted to start a process to either stop Covenant or simply hinder him from whatever his destiny might bring. Having the Land's Peoples ignorant of History and Evil and Law will hinder both Avery and Covenant in their purposes. So, it was like a gentle nudge to "help" the Haruchai in their single minded purpose. Do I think the above scenario to be possible? Nope. But is sure interesting to talk about. What is in Bold is what I think so far.

[brinn18]

I think many things in your post have merit TincupCPG, only one thing... when Liand is telling the story about the Elohim who was in the village warning to beware of the half hand, the elohim said to the Masters something like "You have made these people ignorant of there past, the future doom is on your heads."
So based on that I wouldnt think it was the Elohim who made Kevins Dirt, but I could be wrong.

[JD]

I agreen with brinn18. It would make no sense for the Elohim to make Kevin's Dirt, it would only blind the people further. I think the Masters have something to do with it, or possibly Esmer.

[Baradakas]

Or, of course, Kevin's Dirt was caused by the eruption of the Fire Lions, a side effect of the breaking of the Durance, which seems the most likely explanation to me....


but with SRD, ya just never know.

[Haruchai]

I haven't finished the book yet, so I have only skimmed over most of this thread. I will reread it when I have finished Runes. But....
Did anyone else notice how much more emotion the Haruchai showed in Runes than in the previous books? I thought it was sort of weird. I don't have Runes with me, but Stave got really angry alot and he actually pleaded with Linden. I mean, not that there is anything wrong with that. But, I thought it took away from the Haruchai's characters a bit. Just my humble opinion.

[High Lord Tolkien]

I haven't finished the book yet, so I have only skimmed over most of this thread. I will reread it when I have finished Runes. But....
Did anyone else notice how much more emotion the Haruchai showed in Runes than in the previous books? I thought it was sort of weird. I don't have Runes with me, but Stave got really angry alot and he actually pleaded with Linden. I mean, not that there is anything wrong with that. But, I thought it took away from the Haruchai's characters a bit. Just my humble opinion.

Hmmm....
I didn't get that.
I thought there was a difference between the Bloodguard and the Haruchai, between the 1st and 2nd Chrons, as far as emotion went but didn't notice any more in Runes.
Oh well one more reason to reread!

[ur-bane]

I think that the most obvious and pertinent question regarding Kevin's Dirt has yet to be asked.

Who stands to gain from Kevin's Dirt? Given it's "blinding" nature, who would feel that it is necessary to achieve their ends?

From what we know so far, I think the Haruchai are the most logical choice. Granted, it does not appear to be a deliberate act on their part, but it does appear to be a direct result of their desire to efface the knowledge of the Land's history from the Earth. Perhaps someone other than Foul with power enough to enact its onset aided in its creation, but to me, it seems more than a coincidence that the Haruchai as Masters have the goal of squashing the Land's history in a misguided attempt to combat their own failures, and at about the same time an affliction has shrouded the peoples of the Land ability to see. Diminished their love of the Land itself. Reduced the Land from a character partaking in an epic tale to mere dirt and rock.

That is also why the Haruchai feel threatened by Anele. He is the history of the Land. He has the ability to read the history of the Land that is graven in every rock.
And much the same as the Land was attacked, possessed if you will, by Lord Foul, so is Anele. I honestly believe that as Anele goes, so does the Land. He is a walking, talking embodiment of the Land itself. Linden's promise to protect him (which so far has failed more than once) is actually a larger promise to protect the Land, a promise which she will be hard-pressed to keep.

I believe it was Lord Mhoram who said "Who will defend the Land if we do not?"

The Haruchai have answered that question: No one.

[Plissken]

I have a question about the Bloodguard: What were the "precious gifts" given them by the Lords? Was this ever addressed?

My understanding of the 'Guard is that they do not value possesions or have a use for power, and at the time they met the Lords, they were questing only to prove themselves against a new challenge. So, what "gift" would be precious to them, especially since the Lords would not provide them with that challenge?

The only thing I can come up with is the mind link all Haruchai now possess. It would've been a fitting gift for a group of Lords who were compassionate to the plight of a passionate race who were far from home, and makes Bannor's earlier confession that he had, and misses, his dead wife all the more poignant.

I'm sure there are people who will be able to quote chapter and verse to either support or deny this idea - and that's exactly what I'm looking for here.

Thoughts?

**edit**
I just re-read Bannor's description of the Haruchai's first meeting with the Lords. For some reason, Bannor's careful misdirection from subjects that were too painful for him to discuss with Covenant (childeren, agelessness, wives), and his outright stop-and-redirect when discussing the gifts given by the Lords, combined with Mhoham's assertion that "Such one-mindedness does not come easily to them...", makes me think that this may actually be a plot point in the new series - or at least one of the examples of the well-meaning miss use of Power that the Masters reference in their decision to dis-allow the use of Earthpower.[/b]

[I'm Murrin]

One thing I had noted in this series is that, while previously their accent was explained by saying the Land's language was very different from their own native tongue, in Runes Stave asserts several times that his people do not usually speak aloud at all - something that has obviously only come about since the Second Chrons and their becoming the Masters.

[Old Darth]

The source of Kevins' Dirt is a puzzle indeed. Anele might be doing it subconsciously in an effort to hide his inner nature.

Esmer may be doing it to force Linden to become proficient with using the Staff Of Law ie restoring health sense. With no sense of history the other characters are given physical proof as to what they have lost.

I have trouble believing that the Haruchai would create something like Kevins Dirt. They have no use for and abhor the use of such powers.

I fear for the Haruchai. Any mistakes they made in the past were honest. This time they have taken a course of action that is so fundamentally flawed I do not see how they will recover from it.

[High Lord Tolkien]

I've been giving a lot of thought to the Haruchai "mind speech".

They seem to have a collective thought memory.
I believe that they retain the images and memories of the entire history of the Haruchai from the perspective of the Haruchai that were there.
Where you and I would read about what happened in the past from a book they actually have the visual and audio memory from those that were there.
That's why they are so certain about things.
At first I thought it was just the Bloodguard that had such memory because they were there but with the 2nd and 3rd Chron I think that's it's more than that.
Brinn recognizing TC in the dungeons of the Clave after he was last in the Land 3 thousand years ago?
Some Bloodgaurd returned to the Haruchai home but not Bannor. Not the one Haruchai that knew TC the best.
But Bannor's or another's mental image of Covenent joined the Haruchai collective memory.
In my theory Brinn already had a mental image of Covenent in his memory.

Stave says something like "it would take a long time *EVEN* in the speech of the Haruchai." or something to that effect.
Meaning, to me, that a lot of info can pass between Haruchai minds in short order.
Like traveling at the "Speed of thought" from comic books? Maybe, whatever that means!
I don't know how it works but it must be a rush of images, emotions, and comments from the Haruchai "speaker" to another or other Haruchai.
Cail seemed to fill in the other Haruchai about the entire Quest in only a few monents after they returned to the Land.
And those Haruchai, eager to prove their worth against the companion of Brinn must have understood the implications of the story pretty quick.
More than Cail simply saying "Oh, by the way, Brinn is the new...."


That said I think that Stave's removal from the Haruchai mind speech is interesting and crucial to the time travelling plot.
If he were to meet any Haruchai or Bloodguard as Stave timetravels into the past the Haruchai mind speech might have revealed the future and destroyed the Arch.

I have said before that I believe that if Stave timetravels back now, whatever "severing" (my quotes) the Voice did to Stave will be apparent to the Haruchai in the Past as well.
He's cut off.
Even if he wanted to communicate to the Haruchai and Bloodguard of the past they wouldn't trust or listen to him.

I wonder if Stave is a better fighter than any of the Bloodguard.
In the Daughter of Regals the younger BloodGuard had learned a few new tricks.
Who knows what Stave knows after 6000 more years of collective training!

All of which, of course, supports my theory that Stave is the Guardian of the One Tree.
His whole "thus I am renewed" tells me that he knows he's part of a history loop!

Just my thoughts.
Comments are always welcome.

[Corruption]

High Lord Tolkien:

Surely if the Haruchai had mind-speech like you describe, Stave would have known all that happened to Cail once he left Covenant after the fall of the Clave? He would know of his journey back to the Merewives and the offspring they created? Therefore he would know of Esmer, even if he was unaware of his power.

Going back to previous posts, what if Kevin's Dirt was created solely to prevent Linden from using her Health-Sense once she returned to the Land? The effect on all of the other land-dwellers could simply be an added "benefit" for Lord Fouls agents, but the main reason could be to force Linden to use Hurtloam and/or retreat to higher ground in order for it to remain useful? A kind of forbidding like the Colossus which prevented the Ravers from entering the upper lands?

Also, I can see entirely where the Masters are coming from. You don't want someone to misuse a power, you don't let them near it. Didn't Pitchwife say "unearned knowledge is perilous". Without Anele to guide them, the people of the land had no-one to direct them in their use of the Earthpower, and the Haruchai have already seen what ruin can be achieved with unearned knowledge. Plus the Ramen are just a half-hooved Ranyhyn away from having to renounce the exigence of their "Vow" to the Ranyhyn as well - the Haruchai now simply accept that their Vow was tainted, and it seems plain to me that the same is waiting to happen to the Ramen. First they accepted Pietten, who was clearly damaged by the Despiser, then they accept Esmer too, despite the fact that their Health-Sense must tell them some of what Linden senses when she is near him. Their "pure" service to the Ranyhyn shouldn't allow that kind of oversight.

Rant over, please dissasemble as you see fit....