Aleksandr wrote:How many days did TWL take up until the Soothtell?
At least 27 days:
One day in the real world
Then through the 3 day Sunbane phases:
Desert (Escape from Mithil Stonedown; Covenant wounded by Marid)
Fertility (journeying)
Rain (river journey)
Pestilence (Bee venom; Holian rescued)
Fertility (TC into Andelain; the others captured)
Desert (TC at Stonemight Woodhelven; encounter with Lena's ghost etc.)
??? (TC unconscious with the Waynyhim; can't recall the Sun)
Desert (Bloodspeed)
Fertility (TC journeying with Memla)
Rain (TC at Revelstone - two day sun)
Nice job, Aleksandr!
Hamako tells Covenant how many days have passed, but I can't remember what he said. Will try to find it tonight.
Some of the criticism coming from the Watch is that Runes has the feel of a Prologue, and that isn't a self contained story. I'm currently arguing against that, but am curious as to your response to that particular criticism.
Thanks,
Todd
To the extent that I understand the "prologue" criticism--which is not very well, I admit--I have two comments. It's not "a self contained story"? Neither was "The Wounded Land," or "The Mirror of Her Dreams"; and "The Real Story" only counts as a self contained story by the loosest possible definition. I don't see the problem. But is the criticism *really* that the whole book feels like a warm-up to the last page? In that case, all I can say is: buckle your seatbelts, 'cause we are goin' for a RIDE. <grin>
(11/18/2004)
Good question, Todd!
In that case, all I can say is: buckle your seatbelts, 'cause we are goin' for a RIDE.
Well, I guess I worded my question incorrectly. I always feel like an ignoramus when questioning SRD, so things usually come out rather sophomoric or flat out wrong.
Of course it isn't a self contained story, as SRD indicated.
The better question would have been: what do you have to say to those who think that Runes is a setup to the rest of the series, or that the entire book is blather, existing solely to get to the last page? Of course that's a better question, because that's really the crux of the criticism.
And SRD answered that question, thankfully.
"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." (Anais Nin)
I had no doubt that we were going for a ride.....I just wish I didn't have to wait in a three-year line.
Nearly all men can stand adversity, but if you want to test a man's character, give him power.
--Abraham Lincoln
Excerpt fromAnimal Songs Never Written
"Hey, dad," croaked the vulture, "what are you eating?"
"Carrion, my wayward son."
"Will there be pieces when you are done?"
Plissken wrote:Think about the structural differences between the first and Second Chronicles - most pointedly, in the way the story flowed.
"Lord Foul's Bane" is largely written to be a stand-alone book, and for very practical reasons. The most obvious of these was this - at the time it was written and published, no one knew whether or not the next two books would ever be seen, so it HAD to stand alone. The books that followed had to work a bit to establish the idea that the climax at the end of Foul were just a set up for a much more epic climax.
By contrast, when Donaldson wrote the Second Chronicles, he had the advantage of knowing that all of them would be published, as well as the Final Chronicles. This allowed him to pace the story much more naturally, as well as provide the hints and loose ends needed for the final story in the cycle.
However, I always held in the back of my mind the idea that LFB would have been a very different book, had Donaldson known in advance that all three books would be published.
The Final Chronicles promise to be paced the way Donaldson would've paced the First, had he and his publisher known how successful LFB would be.
If I'm not mistaken, the 1st Chron were published simultaneously. It was the 2nd which began the 1-2 yr wait.
Old man how is it that you hear these things?
Young man how is it that you do not?
yeah...I don't even want to think about waiting for the next three years for Fatal Revenant...
I've only read the first couple pages and the last one so far, but I have a question and a couple comments about the title of this thread...if Runes is an original work, and Donaldson is its creator, and it's not flawed grammatically...how can it be consiedered flawed? There's nothing to measure it against. Yeah, there are the other two chronicles...but they were quite different from one-another, too...you may as well say that the books in the Second Chronicles were flawed because Linden Avery even showed up in them...yes, it's one of the chronicles of Thomas Covenant...but it's different from the other two, just as the other two are different from one-another...it would be awful boring if he just told the same story the same way three times, wouldn't it?
Basically what I'm trying to say is that it's Donaldson's creation, he made it up, so he can do whatever he wants with it (well, except that he has to pass a lot of it by an editor, but you know what I mean), and it is only as flawed as he thinks it is, because he is really the ultimate authority on it.
"A choice made freely is stronger than one compelled"
- Stephen R. Donaldson's The Wounded Land
I wouldn't call ROTE flawed. It is different.
There was one thing I did miss. In almost all his works SRD is rather cruel and harsh to his protagonists. He brings them to dire straits, drives them to the extremes and explores how they react in these extreme situations, either emotional or physical burdens, how they redeem themselves and their seemingly fatal mistakes and crimes. Look what TC is going through in TPTP, Hile Troy and his army in TIW, Morn and Angus in the Gap etc. I missed this a little bit from ROTE, but I realise this is only the beginning, things might well develop in the next 3 volumes.
------------------------------------------------------------------------ love is the shadow that ripens the wine
I think that Linden did something terrible. She brought back the Staff of Law and is now paying a terrible price for it: she brought back the Demondim, who are accessing the Illearth Stone through a Fall.
The devastation that the Demondim are likely to visit upon Revelstone is going to give her much to be redeemed from.
"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." (Anais Nin)
First of all, SRD seems to be trying to hard, all the while making things too easy; both of which Thomas Covenant himself would find appalling. Esmer is like a walking Dues Ex Machina. He's so powerful that he could go kill Foul & betray the land by fetching all the dead bloodguard from the past. It's quite silly. It almost appears to seem like SRD needed something to help him out of corners he would write himself into.
Secondly, the ending is so cliche' that I almost threw the book across the room. Nevermind that it might not really be her loved ones in the first place. That doesn't matter. We're hoping for it & it is just as bad. At least with the staff SRD was smart enough to realize that we would have already figured out the possibility that the reason it was lost was because she took it. Then he threw a strange curveball & I respect that kind of insight & care from a writer.
Third, Foul seems less intelligent than before. What is served by conversing with his enemies? I prefer it the old way where he would tell them the rules & mess with them along the way. If a voice is necessary, the ravers were adequit to the task. Now he seems like a buffoon in minor control of things; and I don't care if that is how he is meant to be seen by Linden, he's Lord Foul, he's supposed to be evil incarnate and he should be treated with more respect.
Fourth, Joan was struck by lightning when she was a catatonic, bed-ridden, bleeding mess barely clinging to life for years. She would have died instantaneously.
Fifth, Roger was shot to death. I can understand that Linden may have made it and she should even think hopefully that she did. She's a doctor & the bullet hit her just under the sternum. She could live. But Roger was shot many times. He's dead.
Sixth, Foul didn't have the strength to pull people in the Land before. He used people to get that done for him. What's changed?
Seventh, the inconsistencies are alarming. How much time has passed since the 2nd Chrons? Sometimes it says 3,000 years and other times it seems to imply 30,000 years. What is it? Also, when they are fleeing Mithil Stonedown to the plunge, there are several direction changes from east to west. You can't even tell without previous knowledge of the Land where the heck they are by SRD's direction failures. SouthEast or SouthWest of Mithil Stonedown? He changes it at least 4 times.
Eighth, The harachai go to all lengths to capture Anele over decades of time, and yet in their very own midst they have a creature of great power & they don't even understand her??????? What's up with that BS?
Ninth, the explanation given is that the demondim have access to the illearth stone by controlling a Fall. Ummmm, that's stupid for a lot of reasons.
Ten, it seems that the demondim could have easily beat the land long ago. They have knowledge of the location of the illearth stone and could simply stand and fight in a location where death has previously occurred. In fact, why not send them to the entrance of Garrotting Deep right when Hile Troy & Morham get there? I mean, that would be a better betrayal. Foul would have won. Giving them the illearth stone was stupid & reckless. Esmer wouldn't have gone that far. All he did was speak to the waynhim for her. Calling the Fall at the Verge required only that the Ramen leave the area, but talking to the waynhim requires he brings back an army that is by itself already impossible to beat & then he gives them the illearth stone as well? STUPID!
Even so, I enjoyed the book. But it is by no means as tight as his previous work in the series.
I think many people are being to harsh on ROTE. It is a set up for the rest of the series, and it feels like it. So was The Real Story, and the Gap series turned out to be arguably Donaldson's best work (I rank only 1st Chronicles above it, personally).
We will see the gut wrenching crises emerge, and characters will pay dearly for the unintended consequences of their actions.
As far as Esmer goes, we all can see how for everything "good" he does, he has to aid the enemy is some equal and opposite way. He gave Linden the Staff of Law, in some way the Demondim and their access to the Illearth stone is both equal and opposite. Linden just needs to figure out how.
Foul doesn't seem any less intelligent. Frankly, his guidance of Linden almost reminds me of the neural clone "Harvey" in Farscape. Scorpius was one hell of a villain, and he sure did lead the characters around by the nose while hiding his purposes masterfully. In this case, just what the hell is Foul's game? What is is plan, besides breaking the Arch of TIme and escaping? There's plots within plots, and plots that don't relate to other plots, but they're all seperate and dangerous without knowing which is which. It's a wicked little setup SRD has for us here.
Sure, it's not as fullfilling as the end of LFB or TWL, but I will personally won't render final judgement until I've read the last word of Shall Pass Utterly.
Idlewilder...amazing thoughts. Thank you. I finished Runes yesterday. I, too, have waited what seems to be a lifetime to read this book. I find many of your points valid. I also did not care much for Linden. BUT! I think Donaldson developed her character well in the "what has gone before" portions, I'm not so picky to worry about her not noticing the replaced gates...I do wonder that Hollian and Sunder were able to leave Andelain, and I truly didn't understand his point in not letting us know that the "falls" or caesures were time warps earlier.
Your point of no black hat, tho, falls on deaf ears here. Esmer is the most absolute villain anyone could be. Or that anyone could begin to create!Good yet evil, never condign. He is the epitomy of all Covenant was and is...
And the demondim, well that was an author's ploy that I think was unnecessary...I suppose we'll see as the next book plays out. Perhaps it is what enables Covenant to come back?
And someone tell me...mahdoubt? Is she Esmer? Who is this person?
All in all, I was absolutely not disappointed...I have read all the previous books more times that I can begin to count.
"Joy is in the ears that hear" I heard, I am happy!
There is a massive discussion below debating who or what the Mahdoubt is. Check it out. There's a pretty broad spectrum of opinions. BTW- Welcome to the board! The more SRD fans here, the merrier!
I would opine that while not great, a book in the form of Runes was necessary.
The Last Chron is 4 books instead of the usual 3 for a couple of reasons.
Both Linden and TC triumphed at the end of the 2nd chron. To have them adventure again in the land without first being broken would be meaningless. Inner strife and conflict had to be reworked into the plot.
I think that we're going to find out that the whole mess the land is currently in (the Demondim, Kevin's Dirt, breaking of the Durance, etc.) is Linden's fault for messing with with time (No good can come from evil). I also think SrD was onto something with having the main antagonist, in a sense, accompanying Linden the entire time and we'll see this continued with Foul's possession of TC (see my theory post about Foul and TC combined).
With both characters in conflict, the story can then be continued as they adventure on their quest for redemption.
Also, it has been 20+ years since the last novel. It would be unrealist for SrD to expect all of his fans to go back and reread 6 books in preparation for the new one. Therefore, if you notice, much of Runes is spent retelling past events and lore while setting up for the events that will take place in the current chronicles.
I actually enjoyed these parts because they really got me up to speed with the details that will be pertinent to this series as well as reminding me of big events that I had forgotten.
Donaldson was probably doing this for himself as much as his fans. No doubt he needed a writting excercise to get back his feel for the Land.
And, if nothing else, Runes did something for me none of the others in Chronicles did: It left me wanting more - a lot more. Where the other books either stood alone on their own or had specific purposes for the characters which were fulfilled by the end of the book, Runes ended with a suprise shocker ending, all of its characters in dire peril, a score of unresolved mysteries to speculate on, and even more clues to form theories about whats going to happen in the rest of the books.
I have no doubt that SrD could probably have take out all the monologuing about the history of the land from Runes, threw in part of Fatal Revenant, trimmed the series to three books and be left with a 800 page or so book (Robert Jordan, anyone?). But I doubt his purposes would have been served in the same way.
And we would have had to wait another year or so to read it.
As it is, I'm happy with what I've got. If the other books wind up being dissappointments I'll change my tune. But, currently, I'm expecting very very big things and I have no reason to believe that SrD will let me down.
"Defend yourself, heartless one, lest I destroy you."
Foul seems less intelligent? How so? How does calming down and no longer ranting and raving mean one has become less intelligent?
Covenant was stabbed. In the heart. How can he enter the Land, but Roger and Joan not?
In the summoning, Linden's blood and the lightning strike provided the power to transport Joan to the Land (and, having White Gold, she would have instinctually healed herself on the way, as TC did). Then, possessed by Turiya, Joan summoned Linden, Roger, and Jeremiah. Joan will have healed Roger as she had herself, and Linden healed herself with her own ring. They are all three (Linden, Roger, Joan) dead in the real world, as TC was in the second chrons.
It never gices any indication the the elapsed time is anything other than the three-and-a-half-thousand years which is the same as the Second chrons. I don't know what you're on about with the directions.
It hasn't been mentioned that the Mahdoubt's particular power is Earthpower. Anele's most definately was.
Anele didn't give the Demondim the Illearth Stone - I think they worked that out themselves. It is likely that, in order to preserve the Law of Time, he simply manipulated a caesure to pick the demondim up, and their lore, which is greater than that of the ur-Viles, allowed them to manipulate that same caesure in order to use the Stone.
For why the demondim hadn't defeated the Land before, read Stave's story. First, they turned against the Viles and fought alongside the Lords. Then, they concentrated on trying to make creatures less abominable than themselves. Finally, they were wiped out by the Desecration.
Anyway, in my opinion the Demondim are necessary for their closeness to the Viles - and the Viles important for their resemblance to the Elohim.
And to esmerlover:
SRD had characters retell the past for a reason - a reason pertaining to the specific pieces of the past that were told. In the same way that the Creator story was repeated in tWL in preparation for the Worm of the World's End storyline.
Another poster sifted through the supposed inconsistencies, so I won't rehash that. I'll just add to this by saying that SRD does *not* have leprosy of the brain, and that he will answer all of the questions you have raised. Has he ever failed us before? I don't understand why you might think he would fail us now.
"Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage." (Anais Nin)
I tried to find the thread that talked about the timeline of the 3rd Chron (how many days Linden's been in the Land so far) but failed. This question might fit here so here goes:
Does the fact that the 1st book takes place over a very short time (funny question since it's going to be all about time! but anyway...) set the pace for the rest of the 3 books?
I mean, is that a writing "law" or something?
Would it be atypical if the next book covered 10 months of "real" time so to speak?
ANd then the 3rd just cover a few days.
