Determinism

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JemCheeta wrote:I am concerned that people are looking at this as something that you are 'forced' to do, something like an 'undeniable urge'. That isn't the sense in which I mean determanism. I'm suggesting that the conclusion of your desire is inevitable, and that you will never act outside your desire.
Aah, no wonder we're struggling so much to come to terms. When I think of determinism, I do think of it as being "forced" to do something. But in the sense you mean, wouldn't "probable" be a better term than "inevitable"?

Afterall, you say yourself that you can choose to act radically differently, simply to demonstrate "free will". As long as the choice is there, as long as there is the possibility of a different action, free will exists.

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Post by Loredoctor »

Why haven't I participated in this interesting thread?
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Why are you asking us?

Jump in by all means. I look forward to your comments on the matter. :)

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Post by Loredoctor »

The problem is that I'm now in the middle of a personal debate on the subject - I mean that I can't decide either way; my long stance that we have no control is being eroded. I need to make my mind up.
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What better way to do so than to explore your options in here?

Nothing says you can't change your mind afterwards. ;)

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Post by Loredoctor »

HAHA! true. But changing my mind at the watch is tantamount to damage to my pride ;) I still have yet to admit that I now agree with the critics of Arafat! ;)
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:LOLS:

I know how you feel. Once having assumed a position on something, I'm always loathe to change it. But if I'm convinced by the other side, there is nothing to do but swallow my pride and say it straight out. Not easy though. ;)

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Post by Fist and Faith »

Busy couple of days, so I can't say much right now.

Jem, yours was also an excellent post. Difficult concepts to explain, but I think I'm beginning to understand your view. I'll try to wrap my mind around it and respond. I have a four-day weekend coming up, so I'll have time. :D

Loremaster, I was kinda surprised you weren't here, considering your education. heh
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Post by Gadget nee Jemcheeta »

I know where you're coming from Loremaster, part of the reason I'm taking such a hardline determinist stance is to see if it can be persuasively argued against.

Remember avatar, that demonstration of free will would have come from a DESIRE to prove that free will existed. :) Your desire to believe in free will would already have been determined.
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JemCheeta wrote:Remember avatar, that demonstration of free will would have come from a DESIRE to prove that free will existed. :) Your desire to believe in free will would already have been determined.
True, but my whole position rests on the fact that DESIRE dictates nothing. It can influence, it can bias, but it doesn't dictate.

And although my experiences can "determine" my desire, they don't force me to act on it. I decide whether or not to carry out any action.

My view of "determinism" is that it removes the option of choice from the matter. If determinism is true, everything I do is inevitable, and not subject to my own will in the matter.

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Post by Nathan »

Avatar wrote:
And although my experiences can "determine" my desire, they don't force me to act on it. I decide whether or not to carry out any action.
No, your experiences don't 'force' you to do anything, but they do determine the choice you will make. Experiences are the only tools in decision making.
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Post by Fist and Faith »

Nathan wrote:No, your experiences don't 'force' you to do anything, but they do determine the choice you will make. Experiences are the only tools in decision making.
I'm not clear on how determining my choices for me is not forcing them on me. What does determine mean?
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Post by Nathan »

The word force means to make you do something even if you don't want to. Determining means they cause your decision to be made.

There's a difference because using the word force implies a desire not to be forced.
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Post by Fist and Faith »

I see. So then, if I understand you, we can't be forced, since, not having free will, we can't want something other than what our experiences determine we will want. Something like that?
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Post by Nathan »

Precisely, and since everyone acts according to what they believe will bring them the most overall comfort, every action you take is determined by your experiences.
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Post by Fist and Faith »

Overall comfort being an extraordinarily subjective phrase, eh? Apropos Gandhi. (That's the limit of my French. :D)

So let me try to understand you better, getting back to music. Do you believe that I am sometimes "in the mood" for music because of factors like what I ate that day, how much sleep I had the night before, who I may have spoken to in the recent past, whether or not I got cut off in traffic, and a host of other factors, at least some of which combine in ways that we may not know how to track and measure at the moment, but which are directly responsible for my desire to hear music at the moment?

Further, are these factors responsible for my desire to hear, say, Bach at that moment?

And if so, do they only determine my ultimate musical choice, or do they also determine which other recordings I'll pick up when I am "considering" which to listen to?
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I think we may be slowly coming to some sort of understanding of what each of us is talking about it. And that is why definition is such an important philosophical concept.

Defining something philosophically is always a challenging experience. It is nowhere near the "dictionary" definition.

For me perhaps, the problem lies in "absolutes". I definitley agree that your experiences will affect the kind of choices that you make, but you are able to make choices at odds with your experience. Although, even as I type this, I think that perhaps acting contrary to experience may be influenced by those experiences.

Damn, this is a tough one. And what about "indecisiveness"? Not being able to make a choice? How does your notion of determinism fit in their? If our choices are determined, why are they sometimes so difficult to make?

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Post by Nathan »

For me perhaps, the problem lies in "absolutes". I definitley agree that your experiences will affect the kind of choices that you make, but you are able to make choices at odds with your experience.
One experience may tell you that something's a bad idea, while another tells you that it isn't. For example I am lazy, and experience tells me that if I don't do my homework I'll get in trouble. However, experience also tells me that I don't suffer as much from the school's punishments as I do from spending hours doing homework. If you factor in all experiences it turns out that there's always a reason why people do everything.
It's also related to this:
Damn, this is a tough one. And what about "indecisiveness"? Not being able to make a choice? How does your notion of determinism fit in their? If our choices are determined, why are they sometimes so difficult to make?
If the choices are either both so good or so bad that there isn't a significant difference between them then your experience tell you that they're both equal, so you find it difficult to make the decision. But that's not to say the decision you eventually make won't be determined like the others, it will because you'll still eventually pick the one that seems to look best at the moment you choose.

Fist: Yes, I'd say that all those things could have an effect in determining everything else you do, but equally they might not, it could be something else. But nothing you do is random, there's always a reason, even if you don't know what it is when you do it.
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Post by Fist and Faith »

Nathan wrote:If you factor in all experiences it turns out that there's always a reason why people do everything.
Well now, that assertion is what we're debating, eh? :) Actually, I don't dispute anything you say. I have no verifiable evidence that things aren't exactly as you say they are. But my personal evidence is, so far, solid. I am unable to disregard the feeling of free will that I have. As I said, I assume you have it too. I assume you don't feel all the many possible factors being reviewed and weighed for importance when you make a decision. I understand your conclusions, and I came to see that many things that are probably assumed to be matters of free will are actually not. But I am unable to deny the feeling in me - the feeling of what might be considered the biggest part of my identity - that the whole is greater than the sum of its parts.
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Post by ChoChiyo »

If some other force is controlling my destiny, then it is an insane force which should be given heavy doses of Thorazine and locked away.

Though it is a strange source to be quoting--I will quote Mathayus (played by THE ROCK) from The Scorpion King: "I control my own destiny."
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