Do you trust the internet?

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Thats a far more difficult and involved question.

On the whole, all that it does is make it easier for the people who are into such things to contact one another. It's not like none of those things were available prior to the internet, it's just that the internet has made it so much more accessible.

Unfortunately, we can't have all the advantages of it without allowing for the disadvantages too.

I don't think the internet threatens our "moral fibre" as such. "Moral fibre" is a human concept, a human construction, and as such, all that can threaten it, if threats they are, is people. People will make use of any channel they can. The Internet, like all knowledge, is morally neutral. It's the uses to which it is put which determines it's "moral" position. The tool itself is not at fault, only the minds of the people who use it.

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[Baradakas]

On the whole, all that it does is make it easier for the people who are into such things to contact one another. It's not like none of those things were available prior to the internet, it's just that the internet has made it so much more accessible.

Cant say I completely agree with that. After all, some 10 year old surfing the net when his parents arent home could be easily facinated by a death site. Within several YEARS this influence could lead to him killing small defenseless creatures, and finally, killing his girlfriend prom nite after a humiliating intimate experience.


Yeah, thats pretty far out there, but stranger things have happened.

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So what you're saying is that the internet has made such things more accessible?

Your example is not beyond the bounds of possibility certainly, but then it's up to the parents to ensure that their childs use of the internet is controlled, or monitored.

My desire for freedom of information is greater than my worry that situations such as the one you describe will become commonplace.

Not that it really matters, as far as I ca tell, the internet is already effectively beyond the control of any government. It's just too late. And to be honest, I'm glad. There is too much that governments can control already.

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[Gadget nee Jemcheeta]

My desire for freedom of information is greater than my worry that situations such as the one you describe will become commonplace.

Not that it really matters, as far as I ca tell, the internet is already effectively beyond the control of any government. It's just too late. And to be honest, I'm glad. There is too much that governments can control already.

I agree with this on both points. There is definately more to lose with censorship of the internet then there is to gain. We've had kids torturing animals forever...without the internet. I really don't think it's going to increase with the advent of death sites... also, death sites are getting stronger and stronger controls... while it is unlikely that any of it can ever really be controlled, at the very least it's inconvenient...

Now I have a lot, emphasize a lot, of experience with the shadier side of the internet, and a lot of that happened when I was 13-15 years old. I mean, some really crazy stuff. It definately did damage to me, but the thing was, I was set up before hand by pre-existing self esteem and self image/confidence problems, and a feeling of seperateness with those around me. I would never have gotten involved with the people I did (No offense to them, they didn't know what age I was generally) if I had a supportive group of friends and a set of positive exploratory experiences to draw from. As it was, I had none of that, and because I had an exceptional vocabulary, reading things like TCTC and whatnot, I was able to fit in better with the 21-35 range than I was the 13-16 age range....

Anyway, rambling here, but in spite of all that, I am totally against serious content controls on the internet. I am also overjoyed that there is a public forum that is accessible from everywhere in the world that is maverick to goverment censorship. W00t.

[Gadget nee Jemcheeta]

Off topic: I only have an hour or two total between calls at work to post on the boards, so often my name comes up as lst poster in a lot of different forums at once... is that rude or something? I'm always concerned that I don't know proper board etiquette, so if I'm doing something off I'd like to be informed...

[Cail]

Off topic: I only have an hour or two total between calls at work to post on the boards, so often my name comes up as lst poster in a lot of different forums at once... is that rude or something? I'm always concerned that I don't know proper board etiquette, so if I'm doing something off I'd like to be informed...

I do the same thing, so I don't mind. That and I really enjoy reading what you have to say, then vehemently disagreeing with it.

[Gadget nee Jemcheeta]

I'm glad you said that, I was getting worried. I enjoy your posts too. As long as we're on the subject. Anyway, back to the party lines!

[Baradakas]

We're pretty laid back here jem. As long as you don't double-post too often and refrain from flaming posts, you're golden.

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...It definately did damage to me, but the thing was, I was set up before hand by pre-existing self esteem and self image/confidence problems, and a feeling of seperateness with those around me. I would never have gotten involved with the people I did (No offense to them, they didn't know what age I was generally) if I had a supportive group of friends and a set of positive exploratory experiences to draw from.

Well said. The Internet per se does not cause these problems. At worst, it provides a platform where these problems can develop, or be explored. And on the eternal other hand, it is just as possible that it provides platforms for the resolution of these types of problems.

Nobody is a blank slate when they arrive on the Net. Millions of past experiences determine how one will make use of it, and how one will be affected by it.

And by the way, I enjoy everyone's posts too

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[ChoChiyo]

I am in agreement with the people who say the internet is neither good nor evil, but can be either in the hands of the individual. Just like a screw driver can be used to tighten a screw or plunge into some poor devil's eye.

My biggest area of concern with it is how easy it is for preditors to find victims. There are a lot of kids out there that are lonely, hurting, and feeling unloved who could easily be sucked into something truly ugly.

However, it can also connect people with mentors and friends that can pull them out of dark places. I have several friends whom I dearly love--whom I've never met, and probably never will!

And the internet has certainly made me a globally conscious person. In my youth, I was abysmally ethnocentric. Any nation outside of the U.S. was barbaric, or so I believed, in my adolescent idiocy. Knowing people throughout the world has been very enlightening in that respect. And has also influenced my political ideas considerably.

As far as the religious sites--I don't even trust the churches any more. Sigh. Too many agendas. There was an old John Denver song called Late Night Radio which had a line that went: "the Lord is still my Shepherd, but these preachers gotta go!"

That pretty much sums it up for me.

I read C.S. Lewis and the Bible and talk with other rational Christians, and hope it's good enough.

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As with most things, the Internet has both its good and bad points. As you say, so much depends on factors which are completely seperate from it, and yet affect the way in which it it used

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[Baradakas]

I personally feel that we need two internets, one that is heavily censored for anyone under 18, and the one we use now.

[Gadget nee Jemcheeta]

ChoChiyo Wrote

My biggest area of concern with it is how easy it is for preditors to find victims. There are a lot of kids out there that are lonely, hurting, and feeling unloved who could easily be sucked into something truly ugly.

First of all, I need to say that you've impressed me completely since you've started posting heavily on the board, and I'm really glad you did. I really enjoy your wit, and I like reading your opinions.
Secondly, in regards to this little bit of your post, I cannot express how important it is that people understand this.

I was definately sucked into something ugly, and it was because I was lonely, hurting and feeling seperate from everyone else. My mental instability and odd maturity/immaturity for my age caused me to make a lot of important friends, and positive influences in my life, on the internet. It also attracted one or two people that need to be shredded in a blender and then launched into a pit of acid through a super soaker.......
ahem, sorry about that. One tends to get carried away.

It would never have happened if I had felt accepted by those around me, or if I felt that I was able to communicate the more serious emotional side of my personality to my family or friends. I couldn't, and because I couldn't, I found people that I could interact with at the level that I felt I was able to. I was 13-14, and the people I talked to online had absolutely no idea that I was so young. People have this idea about young children, that their emotions are somehow simpler and less complex than they are. If I was taken more seriously, I wouldn't be going through the hell I am now, trying to get to the bottom of vanishing memories.

[ChoChiyo]

ChoChiyo Wrote

My biggest area of concern with it is how easy it is for preditors to find victims. There are a lot of kids out there that are lonely, hurting, and feeling unloved who could easily be sucked into something truly ugly.

First of all, I need to say that you've impressed me completely since you've started posting heavily on the board, and I'm really glad you did. I really enjoy your wit, and I like reading your opinions.

Aw, shucks. I like reading your posts too.

Secondly, in regards to this little bit of your post, I cannot express how important it is that people understand this.

I was definately sucked into something ugly, and it was because I was lonely, hurting and feeling seperate from everyone else. My mental instability and odd maturity/immaturity for my age caused me to make a lot of important friends, and positive influences in my life, on the internet. It also attracted one or two people that need to be shredded in a blender and then launched into a pit of acid through a super soaker.......
ahem, sorry about that. One tends to get carried away.

(((YOU)))

I do understand. Adolescence is a very tough period for anyone--but I think it is particularly difficult for those kids (and I bet you were one of them) that are especially articulate, intellligent, and discerning. It's sad, but true, that these kids are often like the chicken that gets picked at by all the other chickens until it is bald and gasping on the ground--because it is different in some way--and the other chickens sense this.

(And, though I am definitely NOT an elitist, it is my opinion that these kids are above average--I hate to say better, since worth is a given for all people--but they see more clearly, feel more deeply, and can be hurt more devastatingly because of their "difference."

I hope this is making some sort of sense. I feel like I'm mucking it up.

And don't feel bad about the statement about what those bad people deserve--my ex-principal deserves the same...and more. He was especially vicious to the kinds of kids I refer to here--because they were smarter than him, on average, and were not taken in by his self-aggrandisments. The bastard. (Sorry--see, I can get carried away as well. NOBODY hurts my kids!!!!!!!

It would never have happened if I had felt accepted by those around me, or if I felt that I was able to communicate the more serious emotional side of my personality to my family or friends. I couldn't, and because I couldn't, I found people that I could interact with at the level that I felt I was able to. I was 13-14, and the people I talked to online had absolutely no idea that I was so young. People have this idea about young children, that their emotions are somehow simpler and less complex than they are. If I was taken more seriously, I wouldn't be going through the hell I am now, trying to get to the bottom of vanishing memories.

Kids are people, both simple and complex, just like adults. In fact, emotionally, they are often more complex because they don't realize that a lot of the things they feel are NORMAL. They think they must be weird or defective or something ghastly. Kids NEED to be listened to by affectionate, accepting people...not preached to or threatened or bullied by people who are mainly into creating little automatons who will spout the required lines and march in a straight line, boy girl boy girl. Unfortunately, kids need this SO MUCH that nasty vermin can prey on them by putting on the affectionate, accepting facade and luring them into their web of evil. I think it would be a good thing to put all of them through the auger. We'd shoot a rabid dog without a thought, and it isn't the dog's fault it's rabid. Sigh.

Hey, been there. It is very hard to get through the pain of stuff that happened when you were young. That hurt child is still in there, thinking somehow it deserved this--brought it upon itself. Just keep on keeping on. Step by step, day by day, you become enlightened. And one day, you may be able to look back, like I can now, and say, "Yes, that really sucked. And I wish it hadn't happened. But having gone through it made me a much stronger, more empathetic, and more conscious person than I would have been if my childhood had been all sweetness and light."

And feel free to talk to me. I'm a very good listener. If I can give you a hand up out of a puddle, I'm happy to do it, buddy.

Cho

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Great posts as usual, Jem and ChoChiyo.

Cho is very right, especially in one important (IMO) way. Suffering is almost a prerequisite for something that, for want of a better description, I'll have to call "Depth of Character".

To suffer something, and survive it, to be one of the lonely, the wounded and the dispossessed, and still struggle on in the face of all damage. That builds character.

And ultimately, we come to the realisation that it was far better for us as people, to have gone through it. We would never have the perspectives we now enjoy, without suffering.

I've got something on the subject that I'll now have to post in the Hall of Gifts as soon as I can find it.

Be safe folks.
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[Gadget nee Jemcheeta]

Sorry if I don't respond as much to your last post as I normally would, Cho, it's difficult for me to accept sympathy about that little string of events, because that would be ACKNOWLEDGING a PROBLEM, but suffice to say that I'm out of my muddiest of waters and can only look back with amazement that I came out of it all as well as I did. I used to be a lot less socially well adjusted, etc, and things have been great for me for a while... well, as great as can be expected living on this planet, in Ohio in the year 2004 anyway. But I'll tell you, its great to see that there are educators out there that care and know what to look for.

[ChoChiyo]

I'm glad you're doing well. "Life is either a great adventure or it is nothing!"

(Helen Keller, I believe)

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...and can only look back with amazement that I came out of it all as well as I did.

I think that that is a feeling shared by many, if not most, of the people who have struggled in their lives. And as for once having been less socially adjusted, I can sympathise. It's only in the last ten years or so, (if not a bit less), that I've become anything remotely like a decent human being.

Life sure is strange huh?

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[Gadget nee Jemcheeta]

Amen to that.

[ChoChiyo]

The most difficult thing is that even when you've come through it, and you know you are a better person for it, and you know that you have been able to help others because of it--you still know exactly when whatever it is rises up to take a nip out of you in some way.

For me, it seems to be the uncontrollable compulsion to please or placate people whom I am not responsible for pleasing or placating. (And people who have no qualms whatsoever about displeasing or disrupting my (or anyone else's) lives. Sigh. Some day--perhaps before I turn 98, I hope to be able to push away the energy vampires and users that seem to turn up in my life again and again and again.

Oh, well.

For the most part, I'm obscenely happy and content with my lot.