Haruchai

[Plissken]

I suspect that Kevin's Dirt is in some way connected to Jerimiah. When Linden sees him at the end of ROTE, he's no longer autistic, and interacts with the World without the "cloud" that kept him from doing so in our world.

I just don't think that it's happenstance that the rest of the people in the World are cut off from true perception in the first place that Jerimiah can "see clearly".

Also, it would be well to remember that Jerimiah had almost as traumatic a childhood as Roger, and that he is there as Foul's tool.

[High Lord Tolkien]

High Lord Tolkien:

Surely if the Haruchai had mind-speech like you describe, Stave would have known all that happened to Cail once he left Covenant after the fall of the Clave? He would know of his journey back to the Merewives and the offspring they created? Therefore he would know of Esmer, even if he was unaware of his power.

No no.
There is some kind of range where the Haruchai lose communication with each other.
In the WGW Hollian said that as they started West because that was the way the Ur-Lord would return and then "the Haruchai became cognizant of your presence and guided us together"
I take that to mean that Cail entered the range of Haruchai awareness.
I'm not saying that all the Haruchai were aware of the Quest as it was taking place.
But that once Cail shared the images and emotions that he experienced on the Quest all the other Haruchai had access to that knowledge.
Not that they agreed with his interpretations as seen by thier reaction to what happened with Brinn though.

Also, I never said the information would be instant and constant.
There has to be an effort on one Haruchai's part to "mind-speak" and on another(or group) to "hear" it.
When Cail walked away that was the last the Haruchai heard from him.
Likewise if Esmer has the mindspeak ability it's a twoway, street so to speak. He has to "talk" and someone has to listen.

[BraulioB]

I still don't agree that the Haruchai actually mindspeak images. The word is "mindspeech" after all.

Though Brinn recognized Covenant in the Second Cronicles, Stave does not recognize Linden in the Third Chronicles. It may be just a coincidence or oversight, I mean, how many men with missing fingers and wearing a ring and alien clothing are there? But same goes for Linden (woman, of course).

B

[Fist and Faith]

Their mindspeech in GILDEN-FIRE is actual words. Like a conversation.

But that's certainly not the extent of it. As High Lord Tolkien says, Stave mentions the difficulties:

"You are Linden Avery the Chosen. The Haruchai are known to you. You must grasp that to speak as you do is" - again he hunted for the right word - "graceless for us. Our thoughts are not easily contained in uttered speech. I can only assure you that we remember, and learn."
........
"Still you do not understand. This manner of speech misrepresents us. It misrepresents truth. And I have deflected myself from the pith of that which I must convey."

Their mindspeech is obviously more than simply conversing. My guess is that their mindspeech has more than one form. Simple words when they want, but more when they want. I'd bet they can do a group mind kind of thing. I don't really have any guesses about exactly what is shared at those times. Yeah, Brinn recognized Covenant immediately, yet Stave didn't recognize Linden. But maybe he recognized her physical appearance, but wasn't willing to assume it was the real Linden, as Brinn assumed it was the real Covenant. Or maybe the Haruchai did their best to forget Linden. heh

[Kymbierlee]

I think the mental language of the Haruchai is more one of images and impression than actual speech. They don't appear to be mind readers in any other capacity. I believe that they communicate with each other through a series of immages and the emotional reactions they elicit in each Haruchai.

[Kymbierlee]

I am sure a lot of people would like to forget Linden, Fist. I liked the series better before she came into it, but maybe I am just jealous..... LOL.
K.

[Fist and Faith]

I know what you mean. How lucky could a person possibly get??? Sometimes I wish I was Linden.






oops... Did I say that out loud?

[ur-bane]

Did anyone else notice the fundamental difference in Linden's attitude toward the Haruchai?

In the Second Chronicles she was very conscious of what they thought of her, and it caused a bit of hesitation in her decision-making. It did not change her decisions, but it did give her some chagrin.

Here in Runes, she doesn't care at all what they think of her, how they perceive her. She needs them as Allies, but not as friends. I think that alone shows some growth on her part. She, unlike Covenant, is a believer. She believes in herself, and trusts her decisions, regardless of the outcome.

I have enjoyed following her growth throughout the series. I look forward to more of Linden Avery, Chosen and Ringthane.

I also think that her relationship with Covenant is going to produce conflict in the next books......her love for him vs. her belief in herself.

[Fist and Faith]

Yes ur-bane, I had noticed that too. Pretty cool that they don't intimidate her now. She knows that she can overcome incredible opposition, knows that she is not evil, knows that she can do incredibly good and powerful things. Nice that their doubts of her don't make her doubt herself now.

[mickwalker]

Have you considered that they are only doing what lord Mhorm started? he decided to abondon kevins lore due to the inherent power and risk to it, as the leading lord he decided this for everyone in the land and look where it led! The masters are doing the same but in their own way,denying the use of earthpower stave says'what would you have us do'its not as if they have seen any longlasting good and they have racial memorys they see back to the first and feel it

[Xar]

Well, I'd rather say that what the Haruchai are doing to the Land is the logical (to them) extension of Covenant's last command to them in the Second Chronicles - that they cease to protect human beings (who can, and will eventually prove unworthy of the unfailing service of the Haruchai) and protect the Land itself and its future.

I can see the Haruchai considering how best to accomplish that goal (just like they did when they met Kevin, and decided to speak the Vow), and then deciding that the best way to protect the Land and its future was simply to remove the use of Earthpower from the equation, for the very reasons Stave discusses with Linden.

So I simply tend to think that Covenant's command was the ultimate reason behind the Haruchai Mastery of the Land (although he obviously didn't mean it this way, and it was undoubtly misunderstood and misinterpreted throughout the millennia).

[High Lord Tolkien]

Xar, they were supposed to serve Revelstone, if I remember correctly, not the Land.

[High Lord Tolkien]

ZefaLefeLaH,
I suspect you're going to get slammed about that post but I couldn't stop laughing!!!

Is that from one of those programs where you plug in a word like "Haruchai" and it makes a story for you?
I love those sites.

[Creator]

ZefaLefeLaH,
I suspect you're going to get slammed about that post but I couldn't stop laughing!!!

Is that from one of those programs where you plug in a word like "Haruchai" and it makes a story for you?
I love those sites.

I split Zeph's post (and edited it) as off topic.

[High Lord Tolkien]

ZefaLefeLaH,
I suspect you're going to get slammed about that post but I couldn't stop laughing!!!

Is that from one of those programs where you plug in a word like "Haruchai" and it makes a story for you?
I love those sites.

I split Zeph's post (and edited it) as off topic.

Yeah, I didn't think it would last too long.
Still, it was kinda funny.

[Xar]

Xar, they were supposed to serve Revelstone, if I remember correctly, not the Land.

That is true, but there is something Covenant says which, if looked at through the rather, ahem, peculiar viewpoint of the Haruchai, always driven to inhuman heights of excellence, could (and, I believe, probably would) lead them to logically believe that the whole Land had been entrusted into their care:

"I want you to stay here. In Revelstone. With as many of your people as you can get. For two reasons. To take care of the wounded. The Land's going to need them. It's going to need every man and woman who can possibly be persuaded to face the future. And to protect the city. This is Revelstone, Lord's Keep. It belongs to the Land - not Corruption or Ravers. I want it safe. So the future will have a place to centre. A place where people can come to learn about the past - and see what the Land means - and make plans. A place of defence. A place of hope. You've already given me everything Bannor promised and more. But I want you to do this, too. For me. And for yourselves. Here you can serve something that isn't going to fail you."

So, in short, Covenant asked them to guard Revelstone as the center and heart of the Land, because it belonged to the Land, and not to Foul or his servants. He basically asked the Haruchai to move as many of them as they could get into Revelstone and to defend the heart of the Land; but because Revelstone is the heart of the Land, the Haruchai probably took this as unspoken permission to protect the whole Land if need be. Maybe they thought that to adequately protect Revelstone, they couldn't just wall themselves up within it - that the best way to protect it was to make sure there was no way to attack it. And of course, living in Revelstone, where the scars of the Banefire still existed, together with the racial memories of the Haruchai (including Kevin's Desecration) probably did have a role in the Haruchai's belief that the greatest threats to Revelstone (and therefore to the Land) had been caused by Earthpower (whether pure or corrupt).

Just threw in my two cents [/quote]

[drew]

and if you don't mind me saying: An excellent two cents you threw in there

[High Lord Tolkien]

I disagree.
TC, in the very quote you supplied was specifically talking about serving Revelstone as a place for the people of the Land.

But you missed a VERY important (imo) part of the quote you supplied.

"So the future will have a place to centre. A place where people can come to learn about the past - and see what the Land means - and make plans."

They didn't do that.
The Haruchai killed all learning, all history.

And why would they serve just Revelstone so utterly like that anyway?
What's their motivation?
The Bloodguard took the Vow because they were blown away by the beauty of the Land, Ranyhyn, Giants and whatever "gifts" Kevin gave them.

They came back to the Land during the Sunbane because they were curious. Then more came in force because they were pissed off.
They did what TC asked out of respect for the UrLord.
He told then to keep it as a place for the people of the Land to learn and remember.
He didn't say "bring back the Lords" which the Haruchai might be able to do. Remember they heard/remembered all the words and spells andway of life from both the Old and New Lords. But of course they didn't aprove of it.

Why would they stay after the Earthpower was healed anyway?
Or rather, why would they stay for as long as they did?
I thought they had such a passion for their wives and homes.

Sunder and Hollian were in Alendilan (spelling?) with their child.
I get the feeling *they* worked with the survivors more than the Haruchai.

And for the Haruchai to do so *little* for thousands of years?
For....nothing?
Somethings out of whack.

[Avytaya]

This part of the story carries a lot of political and social undertones...


Yeah, I agree. In Runes, the Haruchai appear to me like Nazis. Someone (wonder who? Hilter=Lord Foul?) put a bug in their ear that everyone else in the land were just a bunch of dolts, and that they in all their superiorness would be the only ones to preserve the land. To me the whole Haruchai rule on the land is a bit facist. The Masters are the ones telling everyone in the land what to think, how to live....
Plus the fact that they call themselves the Masters....

-Avy

[Xar]

I disagree.
TC, in the very quote you supplied was specifically talking about serving Revelstone as a place for the people of the Land.

Well, it's Xar, actually, but I forgive you

But you missed a VERY important (imo) part of the quote you supplied.

"So the future will have a place to centre. A place where people can come to learn about the past - and see what the Land means - and make plans."

They didn't do that.
The Haruchai killed all learning, all history.

I didn't miss that part. But on the other hand, you must consider that 3.500 years passed between the Second and Last Chronicles. Plenty of time for the original idea to be twisted - especially if, as someone suggested, Foul planted a suggestion or two along the way. Remember the Clave? It, too, originated from Mhoram's far purer desire to seek peaceful Lore, and eventually de-evolved into an elaborate ruse. I agree that in that case, a Raver was directing the Clave's actions all along; but I might also point out the fact that Foul isn't so stupid as to believe that to use that tactic with the Haruchai would have worked the same way. In their own way, the Haruchai are prisoners of their own accomplishments; as we have been shown time and again, they are so sure about themselves that sometimes they blind themselves to all other considerations - and throughout the Chronicles, this has proven to be a terrible shortcoming of theirs. I don't find it so difficult that Foul just planted some carefully arranged suggestions (or subtly manipulated a few key events in the Land) in order to twist Covenant's original purpose into the sort of rule the Masters placed upon the Land.
After all, we do not yet know for sure whose ears Foul whispered suggestions to... And let us remember that Foul has all the time he wishes for, in order to do this.

Sure, you might point out to the Haruchai's racial memories as a way for them not to fall into Foul's trap; but once again, their memories are just that - memories. How to interpret them is something which, humanly speaking, depends upon the situation, your own mindset, and so on. I don't find it too difficult to believe that if the Haruchai were slowly "persuaded" that the true spirit of Covenant's request was that they rule over the Land the way they eventually decided to do, then they would later interpret the memories of Covenant's request that way (something along the lines of "he implied we should take care of all the Land in the best possible way we can devise", or so on). And - the Haruchai have shown, especially in the First Chronicles, that they are quite ready to make others' decisions on their behalf.

And why would they serve just Revelstone so utterly like that anyway?
What's their motivation?
The Bloodguard took the Vow because they were blown away by the beauty of the Land, Ranyhyn, Giants and whatever "gifts" Kevin gave them.

They came back to the Land during the Sunbane because they were curious. Then more came in force because they were pissed off.
They did what TC asked out of respect for the UrLord.
He told then to keep it as a place for the people of the Land to learn and remember.
He didn't say "bring back the Lords" which the Haruchai might be able to do. Remember they heard/remembered all the words and spells andway of life from both the Old and New Lords. But of course they didn't aprove of it.

See above. At least in my mind, Revelstone stands beside Andelain as one of the two most important places in all the Land. While Andelain represents the untarnished beauty of the Land, Revelstone represents the people of the Land and their dedication. To protect Revelstone could also mean to protect the people of the Land, in a metaphorical way.
But apart from metaphors; yes, Covenant asked the Haruchai to protect Revelstone so it would be a place of remembrance and knowledge. Still, if the Haruchai changed over the years until they believed that all Earthpower lore should be hidden from the people of the Land, then Covenant's request could have been conveniently ignored.
And I would like to point out that the point you make should apply to Runes as well: if the Haruchai haven't lost their racial memories (and they haven't, as Stave shows), and if therefore they still remember Covenant's request, and they are complying with it, then why are they making sure no one reaches Revelstone or studies there?

Why would they stay after the Earthpower was healed anyway?
Or rather, why would they stay for as long as they did?
I thought they had such a passion for their wives and homes.

That passion didn't prevent them from taking the Vow thousands of years before. I also wondered about that point: but since in Runes we have no evidence that Haruchai women are in Revelstone or in the Land (I'm starting to wonder if the Haruchai DO indeed have women among them! ), and since this time there is no supernatural Vow binding them to service, it is possible and quite probable that their sense of duty is far stronger and quite capable of keeping under check their yearning. If the Haruchai believe that they are still doing what Covenant asked of them - or if they believe that they're protecting the Land, or fighting Corruption, anyway - I don't think they'd just pack and leave. And they have reason to believe they're still fighting Corruption, or at least protecting the Land: Kevin's Dirt, the existence of Anele and caesures, all of these things could be threats to the Land that the Haruchai could feel bound to defeat, or at least to contain, safeguarding the Land.

Sunder and Hollian were in Alendilan (spelling?) with their child.
I get the feeling *they* worked with the survivors more than the Haruchai.

And for the Haruchai to do so *little* for thousands of years?
For....nothing?
Somethings out of whack.

Sunder and Hollian did work with the survivors than the Haruchai - until they died. Then it should have been up to Anele to do so (and, coincidentally, also keeping alive the legends, stories, and lore of the Land), but as we know, he became Unfettered and left his charge in order to study the Earthpower and the Staff of Law. And any chance he could have returned vanished when he was swallowed up by the caesure and brought to a time where Haruchai rule was far too strong - and Anele's mind too broken - to do anything about it. Humankind's memory is notoriously short (remember that, in the SC, no human remembered the stories about Covenant, or the past existence of Lords old and new, or Earthpower), especially if it is "aided" by those who would wish for those memories to be erased. Just like the Clave eventually changed what little history of the Land was known to its people, so that eventually they believed in a-Jeroth, Berek Halfhand the betrayer, and so on, the Haruchai simply waited, refusing to share their knowledge, and with the additional advantage that they lived among the people they wished to influence, therefore being able to influence their thought as well, to some extent.

The general feeling I have when I read the passages in Mithil Stonedown is a sort of apathy. People go about their business, naively ignorant of the true nature of their world, of their past, and so on, and cultural development, innovations, discoveries, everything has been stifled by the Haruchai's presence. In a way, you could almost say that their immutability has "infected" the human culture we have seen in Mithil Stonedown, so that the common people also find themselves unable to even conceive the notion of making progresses.
As for the "nothing" the Haruchai would receive in return - well, if they believe they're obeying Covenant's request, knowledge of it is all they require, is it not? What the Haruchai desire the most as a people is pure service; if they believe they are doing just that, what more would they ask for?