What makes you think the more "active" end of the Religious Reich ever saw Catholics (or Jews, for that matter) as anything more than an means to an end? Just because they've lightened up on the anti-Catholic rhetoric and suppoort a Jewish Homeland on the "700 Club" doesn't mean that they've changed their minds one iota in the last 15 - 50 years.dennisrwood wrote:and it is this sort of moral arrogance that we voted in for four more years. and the supreme court may need anywhere from 3-5 new seatings. arrrggghhh! wait until the religious right decries the Catholic Church for being "too liberal". i've already heard the notion from folks in these parts. and these religious right folks go and support the death penalty? Avatar, it is this kind of thing i was writing about.
Catholics and Protestants -- The Reformation Revisited
Moderator: Fist and Faith
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dennisrwood
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Plissken: i'll have to agree here. i've seen a lot of Catholic bashing lately. i understand that some priests did bad things, and Cardinal Law should have been shutdown much earlier. but the % of molesting priests is less than in the general population. but did a talk about how to prevent these things happen? no, instead i got to watch non Catholics tell me how wrong my Church was and how they had the solution. i don't get on a soapbox and tell the multitude of Protestant churches how to conduct themselves. when Swaggart, Baker, Crouch, Roberts and Falwell, etc ad naseum, had their problems, i did not use it to attack the fundamental beliefs of the many Protestant churches. i have black inmates accuse me of being Klan. i have to explai to them that klan hates (blacks, Jews, Catholics) and that i couldn't even join had i wanted to. (of course i don't, but the point..)
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This is something that interests me quite a bit, and I know we've discussed it in the Close before, but there seems to be a huge, public division between Catholicism and Protestantism in America, with (apparently), each side being convinced that the other is going to burn in hell.
This doesn't make any sense to me. Sure, you can disagree on points of doctrine, on the trappings and rituals that every church differs on anyway, but at heart, they're both christian faiths. They (essentially) believe the same thing. Why then, this rampant animosity between Catholics and Protestants?
Someone, (perhaps Cail?) mentioned something about being an "outed" Catholic. What's the problem? I'd think that first and foremost, christians should stand together against the pagans/whatever, not squabble over the fine points of dogma.
I don't think I've ever heard of such emnity between them anywhere else, (except maybe Ireland), so why is it so much the case in the States? For a country that tries to seperate church and state, it seems awful hung up about the church. (Those Puritan ancestors?)
By the way, I was raised a Catholic, until I decided to make my own mind up about it at 14 or so, but I certainly never experienced any sort of animosity from other brands of christianity, and I don't see it really happening here. Christians on one side, everybody else on the other is how they seem to see it. Which at least makes some kind of sense.
It seems that even being a christian in America, (believeing in christ as saviour etc.) is no guarantee of heaven, in the sense that most of the christians seem to think that its only their particular brand that are "true" christians.
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This doesn't make any sense to me. Sure, you can disagree on points of doctrine, on the trappings and rituals that every church differs on anyway, but at heart, they're both christian faiths. They (essentially) believe the same thing. Why then, this rampant animosity between Catholics and Protestants?
Someone, (perhaps Cail?) mentioned something about being an "outed" Catholic. What's the problem? I'd think that first and foremost, christians should stand together against the pagans/whatever, not squabble over the fine points of dogma.
I don't think I've ever heard of such emnity between them anywhere else, (except maybe Ireland), so why is it so much the case in the States? For a country that tries to seperate church and state, it seems awful hung up about the church. (Those Puritan ancestors?)
By the way, I was raised a Catholic, until I decided to make my own mind up about it at 14 or so, but I certainly never experienced any sort of animosity from other brands of christianity, and I don't see it really happening here. Christians on one side, everybody else on the other is how they seem to see it. Which at least makes some kind of sense.
It seems that even being a christian in America, (believeing in christ as saviour etc.) is no guarantee of heaven, in the sense that most of the christians seem to think that its only their particular brand that are "true" christians.
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dennisrwood
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the Catholic church does not advocate that Protestants are going to burn in hell. you may (rightfully) accuse of arrogance, but i feel the antagonism
comes from the other side. i have seen preachers on TBN preaching how my Church is the Whore of Babylon. my own step-son accuses me of worshiping Mary because his holy-roller church keeps stressing the point. i have had people accuse me of cannibalism because of the Eucharist. i take all of this stride. i have heard the Nimrod stories. i have Jack Chick comics accusing Catholics of being involved in the Lincoln assassationation
via direct orders from Rome. i have seen Mel Gibson slammed because of his Catholic belief. (he is too far to the right of a Catholic for my tastes, but he is still a Catholic brother). i have seen a Church accussed of avarice when we have missionaries in every corner of the globe. i still continue to hear the lie that my Church was involved with the nazis during WWII. i have seen the priest molestation scandal involve into an attack on my Church. i have to bear non Catholics advocating that the priesthood
is horrible and should be destroyed. i hear that women and homosexuals should be allowed to enter the priesthood. i hear non Catholics call for married priests. i have been ridiculed for my belief in purgatory. i have been blame for the Inquisition and Crusades, even though i'm only 36. i stand by and try to protect my Church and it's traditions. and not once do i
see an attempt of a Protestant church to do as much good as Pope John Paul II in reaching out to other churches. we have tried to reconcile with the Orthodox Churches. it hurts my heart that my Catholic brothers are still not with us in all things. i grieve that the institution of the Church has been watered down by the explosion of Protestant churches that disagree with tradition and methodology. and since you asked,
i believe that all of hristian faith has been hurt by all of this dilution. sorry to vent. it is a sore point with me. but it is my calling to stand witness. i would like to discuss this at length Avatar. as dialog can only help. thanks.
comes from the other side. i have seen preachers on TBN preaching how my Church is the Whore of Babylon. my own step-son accuses me of worshiping Mary because his holy-roller church keeps stressing the point. i have had people accuse me of cannibalism because of the Eucharist. i take all of this stride. i have heard the Nimrod stories. i have Jack Chick comics accusing Catholics of being involved in the Lincoln assassationation
via direct orders from Rome. i have seen Mel Gibson slammed because of his Catholic belief. (he is too far to the right of a Catholic for my tastes, but he is still a Catholic brother). i have seen a Church accussed of avarice when we have missionaries in every corner of the globe. i still continue to hear the lie that my Church was involved with the nazis during WWII. i have seen the priest molestation scandal involve into an attack on my Church. i have to bear non Catholics advocating that the priesthood
is horrible and should be destroyed. i hear that women and homosexuals should be allowed to enter the priesthood. i hear non Catholics call for married priests. i have been ridiculed for my belief in purgatory. i have been blame for the Inquisition and Crusades, even though i'm only 36. i stand by and try to protect my Church and it's traditions. and not once do i
see an attempt of a Protestant church to do as much good as Pope John Paul II in reaching out to other churches. we have tried to reconcile with the Orthodox Churches. it hurts my heart that my Catholic brothers are still not with us in all things. i grieve that the institution of the Church has been watered down by the explosion of Protestant churches that disagree with tradition and methodology. and since you asked,
i believe that all of hristian faith has been hurt by all of this dilution. sorry to vent. it is a sore point with me. but it is my calling to stand witness. i would like to discuss this at length Avatar. as dialog can only help. thanks.-
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Well, as you've seen, I've created a new topic so that we can enter into this sort of dialogue. Now I realise that we may be touching on points that were mentioned in the now defunct thread titled Christians Vs Christians, but with a bit more interested participation, perhaps we can get an answer to the question that I originally posed in that thread.
I think that Dennis raises some interesting points here, and expresses an understandable confusion. While there were what seemed to be good and clear reasons for the reformation, all the way back when, it seems that in some places at least, people are still looking at it the way that England did, back in the 1600's.
As I've said, it doesn't make any sense to me. And as Dennis mentions, this sort of dissent has only weakened christianity. Afterall, if the christians can't even agree amongst themselves that their differences are minor, what hope do they have of convincing the rest of us that they're right?
They all believe in (ostensibly) the same thing. That christ was the son of god, that he was crucified, died, rose from the dead and ascended into heaven as payment for the sins of mankind. so why are the technicalities so important?
And certainly, he seems to have a point in saying that most of the condemnation comes from the protestants. Certainly I haven't heard much Protestant bashing from the Catholics, (although I have no doubt it does occur).
Perhaps part of the reason is that the Protestants do not have a unified church themselves, but spend an equal amount of time arguing over whether its the Methodists or Baptists who are right.
Certainly questions like blaming individual Catholics for the Inquisition, the crusades, etc. makes as much sense as blaming Germans today for WWII. And while it is true that the Catholic church has been involved in many of the less admirable events, it is equally true that Protestant churches have a less than unblemished record.
The past seems to have an all too powerful hold on us. And we infrequnetly realise just how much it affects our present, and our future.
--Avatar
I think that Dennis raises some interesting points here, and expresses an understandable confusion. While there were what seemed to be good and clear reasons for the reformation, all the way back when, it seems that in some places at least, people are still looking at it the way that England did, back in the 1600's.
As I've said, it doesn't make any sense to me. And as Dennis mentions, this sort of dissent has only weakened christianity. Afterall, if the christians can't even agree amongst themselves that their differences are minor, what hope do they have of convincing the rest of us that they're right?
They all believe in (ostensibly) the same thing. That christ was the son of god, that he was crucified, died, rose from the dead and ascended into heaven as payment for the sins of mankind. so why are the technicalities so important?
And certainly, he seems to have a point in saying that most of the condemnation comes from the protestants. Certainly I haven't heard much Protestant bashing from the Catholics, (although I have no doubt it does occur).
Perhaps part of the reason is that the Protestants do not have a unified church themselves, but spend an equal amount of time arguing over whether its the Methodists or Baptists who are right.
Certainly questions like blaming individual Catholics for the Inquisition, the crusades, etc. makes as much sense as blaming Germans today for WWII. And while it is true that the Catholic church has been involved in many of the less admirable events, it is equally true that Protestant churches have a less than unblemished record.
The past seems to have an all too powerful hold on us. And we infrequnetly realise just how much it affects our present, and our future.
--Avatar
Well, in my Catholic church I have never, ever heard anyone (religious or lay) say that any other religion, race, nationality, sexual orientation, or whatever was catagorically going to Hell. One of the reasons I chose to convert to Catholocism was the inclusion that I saw/felt there. My first RCIA class, I asked the priest if he and the church believed that Jews were welcome into heaven. His reply was, "Of course, the Old Testament describes God's covenant with the Jews. When we celebrate the Eucharist, we're celebrating the New Covenant that applies to the rest of us.".
I like that way of thinking. One God, one church. We all have the capacity to be children of God, because He loves us all equally.
This is in sharp contrast to my Southern Baptist upbringing. They hated everyone.
I like that way of thinking. One God, one church. We all have the capacity to be children of God, because He loves us all equally.
This is in sharp contrast to my Southern Baptist upbringing. They hated everyone.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
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"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
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_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
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"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
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[Syl]
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Speaker: Hello, newcomers, and welcome. Can everybody hear me? [taps the mic a few times] Hello? Can everybuh-? Okay. [the crowd quiets down] Uh, I'm the hell director. Uh, it looks like we have about 8,615 of you newbies today, and for those of you who are a little confused, uh, you are dead, and this is hell, so, abandon all hope and uh yada yada yada. Uh, we are now going to start the orientation process, which will last about-
Man 4: Hey, wait a minute, I shouldn't be here. I wa a totally strict and devout Protestant! I thought we went to heaven!
Hell Director: Yes, well I'm afraid you were wrong.
Soldier: I was a practicing Jehovah's Witness. Hell director: Uh, you picked the wrong religion as well.
Man 5: Well, who was right? Who gets into heaven?
Hell Director: I'm afraid it was the Mormons. Yes, the Mormons were the correct answer.
Crowd: [disappointed] Awww.
"It is not the literal past that rules us, save, possibly, in a biological sense. It is images of the past. Each new historical era mirrors itself in the picture and active mythology of its past or of a past borrowed from other cultures. It tests its sense of identity, of regress or new achievement against that past.”
-George Steiner
-George Steiner
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duchess of malfi
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My sisters were raised in a very strict fundamentalist Baptist Church. (They are all much older than I am and by the time I came along, my parents had left that church, thank God). 
After my father's death, my third oldest sister told me of how she came to convert to the Catholic faith.
Apparently all during her childhood she had to endure long, shouted harangs about the evil no-gooders at the Catholic church up the road. How they played bingo, drank wine, danced, played cards, watched movies, and did God only knows what other sinful activities.
So as an adult, she checked things out, especially after she met the love of her life, who happened to be a wonderful Catholic man (They have been married now for something like 30 years).
She was very happy -- joyful -- to convert. her comment:
And, of course, I am told constantly by the members of my husband's family who converted to Mormonism that I am not a Christian, either. But they feel that way about Protestants and Catholics across the board.
And there are minor bits of prejudice going the other way, as well. If a Catholic comes to at least some Protestant churches (like United Methodist ones), they are more than welcome to take communion along with everyone else. But I have been told (by Catholic friends I have gone to mass with) that I cannot take communion in a Catholic church.
Frankly, I don't get any of it.
Shouldn't the beliefs held in common be more important than the differences?
After my father's death, my third oldest sister told me of how she came to convert to the Catholic faith.
Apparently all during her childhood she had to endure long, shouted harangs about the evil no-gooders at the Catholic church up the road. How they played bingo, drank wine, danced, played cards, watched movies, and did God only knows what other sinful activities.
So as an adult, she checked things out, especially after she met the love of her life, who happened to be a wonderful Catholic man (They have been married now for something like 30 years).
She was very happy -- joyful -- to convert. her comment:
So yes, there are at least some fundamentalist Protestant churches that view Catholics as something akin to pagans. And those churches also sometimes slam more liberal mainlain Protestant churches, like the Methodist church I grew up in. I was told more than once in high school by fundamentalist class mates that I wasn't really a Christian because I attended a Methodist church. It had something to do with obscure bits of theology, and I never actually understood where they were coming from or what they were talking about.I had never imagined a Church where you could actually have fun. I had never imagined a church that thought having fun wasn't a sin!
And, of course, I am told constantly by the members of my husband's family who converted to Mormonism that I am not a Christian, either. But they feel that way about Protestants and Catholics across the board.
And there are minor bits of prejudice going the other way, as well. If a Catholic comes to at least some Protestant churches (like United Methodist ones), they are more than welcome to take communion along with everyone else. But I have been told (by Catholic friends I have gone to mass with) that I cannot take communion in a Catholic church.
Frankly, I don't get any of it.
Shouldn't the beliefs held in common be more important than the differences? Love as thou wilt.
Duchess, your sister's story mirrors mine.
As far as communion (Eucharist) is concerned, that is one of the major differences between Catholocism and Protestantism. Catholics believe that they are witnessing a miracle every week when bread and wine actually become the body and blood of Christ. For me, at least, this is such a meaningful part of my faith, that I hate to miss Mass.
Every Protestant service I've been to sees communion as a symbolic reference to the Last Supper.
As far as communion (Eucharist) is concerned, that is one of the major differences between Catholocism and Protestantism. Catholics believe that they are witnessing a miracle every week when bread and wine actually become the body and blood of Christ. For me, at least, this is such a meaningful part of my faith, that I hate to miss Mass.
Every Protestant service I've been to sees communion as a symbolic reference to the Last Supper.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
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dennisrwood
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i wish i could send you all copies of the Chick tracts, you can find them on line. but it boiols down to the Church being corrupt and only fundamentalists knbowing the truth. our priests and i have talked about people standing in judgement of others, and the CHurch believes that God will sort all of this out. we also do not preach on the end times as we don't know when and what will happen. i see too many churches focused on the question of Revelation. and the don't seem like happy people.
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duchess of malfi
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I agree that it is up to God to sort it out. After all, what makes a person is Christian is things that they believe and feel within their heart -- and no one person can really know that about someone else.
The Father is said to have many rooms for his children. I don't see why there can't be plenty of room for us all.
The Father is said to have many rooms for his children. I don't see why there can't be plenty of room for us all.
Love as thou wilt.
I've got the links to the relevent Chick tracts...read them and be in awe of Jack Chick's distorted view of reality!
The Origin of Catholicism
Why Catholics Aren't Real Christians
The Origin of Catholicism
Why Catholics Aren't Real Christians
Anyone perfect must be lying, anything easy has its cost, anyone plain can be lovely, anyone loved can be lost.
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dennisrwood
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duchess of malfi
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Yikes! I just read the Chick Tracts. I'd forgotten how twisted they were. When I was a Southern Baptist back in grade school we would pass stuff like that out to our friends and neighbors. It makes me sick reading that kind of propaganda.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
_____________
"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
_____________
"I believe there are more instances of the abridgment of the freedom of the people by gradual and silent encroachments of those in power than by violent and sudden usurpations." - James Madison
_____________
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Gadget nee Jemcheeta
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I once saw one of those comics about gay people. I remember they looked like 7 foot tall evil genies.
Wierd times.
Anyway, I'm really surprised that even after these years away from the church, I still get a little confused when I hear about catholics being looked at as non-christian... I mean, how many years were catholics the only christians? heh...
But that's just semantics. I think that the duchess of malfi said the key to this issue for me: Christianity is not in the label you put on yourself, it means behaving like Christ. The christians that I know don't go to a regular church, the true christians live their church in their home, and in everyday life they shine their devotion to christ. It's just as plain as looking at their face.
Unfortunately the too-liberal accusations in the Catholic church are creating a new trend in young seminarians (at least in my area, I have friends in the seminary) of returning to the conservative church. More latin! Less inclusion! *sigh*
Wierd times.
Anyway, I'm really surprised that even after these years away from the church, I still get a little confused when I hear about catholics being looked at as non-christian... I mean, how many years were catholics the only christians? heh...
But that's just semantics. I think that the duchess of malfi said the key to this issue for me: Christianity is not in the label you put on yourself, it means behaving like Christ. The christians that I know don't go to a regular church, the true christians live their church in their home, and in everyday life they shine their devotion to christ. It's just as plain as looking at their face.
Unfortunately the too-liberal accusations in the Catholic church are creating a new trend in young seminarians (at least in my area, I have friends in the seminary) of returning to the conservative church. More latin! Less inclusion! *sigh*
Start where you are,
use what you have,
do what you can.
use what you have,
do what you can.
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dennisrwood
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well liberal ideas the Catholics have include...
taking care of the poor.
anti-abortion.
anti-death penalty.
anti-euthenesia.
inclusion of our Orthodox brothers.
apologizing for past mistakes.
anti-war (most cases)
anti-eugenics.
blesssing of animals.
enviromental awareness.
healing masses.
tolerance and understanding of Jews and Muslims.
what a radical lot we are.
taking care of the poor.
anti-abortion.
anti-death penalty.
anti-euthenesia.
inclusion of our Orthodox brothers.
apologizing for past mistakes.
anti-war (most cases)
anti-eugenics.
blesssing of animals.
enviromental awareness.
healing masses.
tolerance and understanding of Jews and Muslims.
what a radical lot we are.
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- Immanentizing The Eschaton
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Well said. And now, after years of accusations of not being liberal enough, churches are being accused of being too liberal? Sheesh. People should make up their minds.JemCheeta wrote:I think that the duchess of malfi said the key to this issue for me: Christianity is not in the label you put on yourself, it means behaving like Christ. The christians that I know don't go to a regular church, the true christians live their church in their home, and in everyday life they shine their devotion to christ. It's just as plain as looking at their face.
As you say, it's not what the churches say, its how the followers behave, especially towards others, that should be the true measure of christianity.
--Avatar