Who are God and Jesus and what do they want from us?

[Avatar]

Its not that the message of god is temporal, its the message of religion, or religion itself.

Its not that religion was "true" for a while, for me at least, and, it seems, for Kinslaughterer as well, religion per se was never true. What was true was the validity of the method for passing important social information on to others, and ensuring that it was obeyed.

If by the "message" of god, you mean that we should love one another; that is true regardless of whether or not you believe that the only reason for it is because god said so.

However, we now know why you shouldn't eat pork in a hot climate, or why you shouldn't sleep with your sister. That, I think, is what was meant by the temporal nature of religion.

At that time, and in that place, the easiest way of making sure that people behaved in the best interests of their community was to say that these were commandments, passed down by god, and if you didn't obey them, you would suffer for ever.

That is no longer necessary. It is no longer necessary for religion to treat us as though we had the understanding/mentality of those historical peoples. The underlying concept is great. Its the method of dissemination that I struggle with, and all the other bits which essentially detract from that concept of "love one another", for no reason which is valid.

--Avatar

[Loredoctor]

I don't know what God wants from me. It seems pain or misery are his tools and the hell if I know what plan he has.

[dennisrwood]

Avatar: the universal truths don't change though. and i have no reason to not believe that God didn't want us to poison ourselves. but faith is blind?

Lore: pain and misery are human inventions.

[Loredoctor]

Whatever.

[Avatar]

Avatar: the universal truths don't change though. and i have no reason to not believe that God didn't want us to poison ourselves. but faith is blind?

Lore: pain and misery are human inventions.

Hmmm, not sure what you're saying there. Universal truths? A difficult question in anybodies book. What parts of the Bible are "universally true" and what parts are temporally irrelevant now? Sure faith is blind. Like love, it has to be, or it would never survive.

Here is a quote from Zen Without Zen Masters, by Camden Benares. One of my all time favourite books. A bible of mine, inb fact, if I saw anything that way:

1. What you are required to believe is what the system
cannot prove.

2. Anything that you are asked to keep secret is of more
value to the teacher than to the student.

3. Any practice that is forbidden offers something that the
system cannot successfully replace with an alternative.

And as to pain and misery being human inventions, surely that is only true if you don't believe that god was the creator and instigator of the world? If he is, then isn't he just as responsible for the bad stuff as for the good?

--Avatar

[Dragonlily]

The idea that a religion could be true for awhile, then somehow become not true, is patently false.

The two of you are defining religion in different ways. Kinslaughterer is defining it as a social movement or social coping mechanism, and Edge is defining it as a belief or universal truth. The two can't even be compared, because they are such different things.

Sure faith is blind. Like love, it has to be, or it would never survive.

The more we understand someone, the better we are able to love them. If you are afraid to see that someone is doing bad things, you haven't yet begun to love. Get inside them, understand them better than they do themselves. Then just try not to love them.

Which doesn't include letting them run amok, of course.

Here is a quote from Zen Without Zen Masters, by Camden Benares.

3. Any practice that is forbidden offers something that the system cannot successfully replace with an alternative.

Um. Thinking of some things so disgusting I can't even hint at them here... Are those forbidden only because the system can't successfully replace them?

pain and misery are human inventions.

Pain and misery have existed ever since life began experiencing illness, injury and death -- millenia before mammals came into being. The trick to living with pain is to let yourself engage with the enjoyable things that exist alongside it.

[ChoChiyo]

A Valkyrie once said that joy and pain are the left and right hands of life--without one, the other isn't possible.

If we don't risk the pain (and endure it) we can't experience the joy.


It's hard to understand why God let sin and suffering into the world--unless he felt that we would not evolve into higher beings without it. I think there is something in the Bible about being forced or purified or something like that in flames. Not a happy image...but true strength comes out of it...

And, regarding God's existence, I don't know if it's true for everyone, but I yearn for a real connection/relationship with God the way a thirsty person yearns for water or a hungry person years for food.

Thirst wouldn't exist if there was no water, would it? And hunger wouldn't exist if there were no food, right?


So, would a person feel this yearning for something if there were not something there to fill the void?

[Dragonlily]

would a person feel this yearning for something if there were not something there to fill the void?

I agree, Cho. I do think that yearning is our instruction to find the doorway. It may not look like a doorway, it may look like something completely everyday, but the feeling of satisfying that yearning just a little bit means we have taken a step toward the doorway.

Incidentally, my view of Christianity comes from growing up a preacher's daughter. To me it was/is a crushing social force, not a spiritual belief system. This means I have a special appreciation of people who focus on a spiritual approach to their beliefs, including Christianity.

[Nathan]

Thirst wouldn't exist if there was no water, would it? And hunger wouldn't exist if there were no food, right?


So, would a person feel this yearning for something if there were not something there to fill the void?

Yes, something to fill the void, not necessarily God. Kinslaughterer's religion as a social tool fills the void just as well as a true God would.

[Plissken]

I will say that love comes from people not a mythical christ. Sorry folks I hate to step on toes but we give love and we get love it is created from us not some outside source.

And I will say that God is the ultimate source of love, as He created us with the capacity to love. I'll also say that Christ is not a myth, He is real.

[ The idea that a religion could be true for awhile, then somehow become not true, is patently false.

It is not illogical to assume that religion is temporal. The God of the Judeo/Christian Religions (Or, more accurately, His paparazzi) has changed with the times quite often - especially for Someone who claims to be an "unchanging God".

Any Fundamentalist ("It's not poetry about the Big Bang - God just went "click".) who thinks that God is not temporal should really consider giving up poly/cotton blends - on pain of an eternity in Hell (Which wasn't invented until very late in the Bible's history, BTW). Seriously. If God's not temporal, I'd be re-reading Leviticus VERY carefully, were I you.

[Edge]

It is not illogical to assume that religion is temporal. The God of the Judeo/Christian Religions (Or, more accurately, His paparazzi) has changed with the times quite often - especially for Someone who claims to be an "unchanging God".

Any Fundamentalist ("It's not poetry about the Big Bang - God just went "click".) who thinks that God is not temporal should really consider giving up poly/cotton blends - on pain of an eternity in Hell (Which wasn't invented until very late in the Bible's history, BTW). Seriously. If God's not temporal, I'd be re-reading Leviticus VERY carefully, were I you.

What I said was is that it's illogical to think that truth is temporal. In that a religion (at least its' fundamental aspects) can't be true one moment, then suddenly not true the next.

And no, God hasn't changed one bit. His character, His nature, His priorities have remained the same over the centuries - as Jesus illustrated, when He was asked what the most important commandments were, and he quoted from Deuteronomy: "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and thy neighbour as thyself". Love has always been His priority.

It's perfectly natural, though, that some of His laws, specifically the Levitical ones, were intended for a specific situation in a specific time. Just because God gives certain laws for certain times, and yes, even changes His mind on occasion, doesn't mean that His nature or His priorities change. Do you really think God would be so stupid as to think that because it was necessary for the Israelites to urinate and defecate outside the camp, He should now expect the same of us despite the invention of indoor plumbing? Yet He's never changed His mind about moral issues, or spiritual priorities.

As for Hell being a recent thing, it's quite true: before Jesus' death and resurrection people went to a place of waiting. Jesus' death changed a number of things, and that was just one of them.

And there's nothing in the Bible about God "going click".

[Kinslaughterer]

And no, God hasn't changed one bit. His character, His nature, His priorities have remained the same over the centuries - as Jesus illustrated, when He was asked what the most important commandments were, and he quoted from Deuteronomy: "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and thy neighbour as thyself". Love has always been His priority.

Unfortunately, God has changed dramatically in terms of both "his" writings and "his" nature. Yahweh or Jehovah was actually restructured by the Hebrews from the four gods they worshipped equally, (all happening long after the exodus from Egypt) El (the father), Asherah (the mother), He (the son-a proper name), and Anath (the daughter). The restructure occured at the end of the Babylonian exile. They were of several tribes and various ethnic stock so the idea of Jehovah's chosen people arose among their leaders to unify a struggling society.The Jewish Torah did not exist before the Babylonian exile but was carefully written down after their release. And a through look at the Old Testament will clearly reveal that God is pretty mean almost all the time with very little love involved.

The basic problem, especially in "yearning" for a religious ideal, is that as humans we greatly desire black and white clear cut answers to the problems and questions of the world. People crave that black and white god to give them those answers but he does not exist only a gray world. I'm not trying to bring you down here by gray I'm suggesting that the world provides questions and problems that have no clear cut answers and the creation of a god who gives such answers will only cause the world much more pain than joy.
As an archaeologist (my given profession) and an anthropologist (one has to study quite abit of anthropology first) I've seen cultures with a huge varieties in terms of religion and christianity fits the same mold as all the various cults, mysteries and religions of the ages. In fact it is almost completely "lifted" from many of these bygone religions. The universal truths you speak of are just that, they are far older than Jesus and are accepted by nearly every religion on earth. The inclusion of Jesus is irrelevant to their existence.

i also fail to see how the message of God could be temporal. are we now living in an enlightened age? did i not get the invite? because i see sin everwhere. i see man brutalizing himself and all that surrounds him. i see people crying out for an answer. and i fail to see that answer in anything that man has created. i see us wrestling with a culture of death. so when did mankind's problems get solved, and when will that solution be delivered to me?

Unfortunately dennis these things have existed and will continue to exist as long as humanity exists. Every culture would like to limit them as they are dangerous to their continued existence and the safety of the people. I've never suggested that mankind's problems are going to be solved by anything and thinking that is probably a little optimistic.

Wrong. The only way to make a meaningful decision is if you're fully aware of the consequences.

I'd argue that the most meaningful are the ones where the consequences are uncertain.

[Edge]

Unfortunately, God has changed dramatically in terms of both "his" writings and "his" nature. Yahweh or Jehovah was actually restructured by the Hebrews from the four gods they worshipped equally, (all happening long after the exodus from Egypt) El (the father), Asherah (the mother), He (the son-a proper name), and Anath (the daughter). The restructure occured at the end of the Babylonian exile. They were of several tribes and various ethnic stock so the idea of Jehovah's chosen people arose among their leaders to unify a struggling society.The Jewish Torah did not exist before the Babylonian exile but was carefully written down after their release. And a through look at the Old Testament will clearly reveal that God is pretty mean almost all the time with very little love involved.

Fortunately for us all, God's nature has not changed AT ALL, from the beginning of time, architects, lawyers and historical revisionists notwithstanding. The Jewish Torah is the earliest document in existence, and clearly reveals the nature and character of God as primarily concerned with love.

The basic problem, especially in "yearning" for a religious ideal, is that as humans we greatly desire black and white clear cut answers to the problems and questions of the world. People crave that black and white god to give them those answers but he does not exist only a gray world. I'm not trying to bring you down here by gray I'm suggesting that the world provides questions and problems that have no clear cut answers and the creation of a god who gives such answers will only cause the world much more pain than joy.
As an archaeologist (my given profession) and an anthropologist (one has to study quite abit of anthropology first) I've seen cultures with a huge varieties in terms of religion and christianity fits the same mold as all the various cults, mysteries and religions of the ages. In fact it is almost completely "lifted" from many of these bygone religions. The universal truths you speak of are just that, they are far older than Jesus and are accepted by nearly every religion on earth. The inclusion of Jesus is irrelevant to their existence.

Fortunately, we did not create God; He created us. And as Jesus existed long before his human incarnation, nothing that exists is older than Him. And as He is the incarnation of God, anything else in all creation is only relevant as it pertains to Him.

Wrong. The only way to make a meaningful decision is if you're fully aware of the consequences.

I'd argue that the most meaningful are the ones where the consequences are uncertain.

And you'd still be wrong.

[Kinslaughterer]

Fortunately for us all, God's nature has not changed AT ALL, from the beginning of time, architects, lawyers and historical revisionists notwithstanding. The Jewish Torah is the earliest document in existence, and clearly reveals the nature and character of God as primarily concerned with love.

The Jewish Torah is far from the earliest document in existence by thousands of years. Hundreds of Sumerian cunieform tablets, Indus scripts, and Egyptian treatises on all subjects are ancient compared to the Torah. Sorry but Jehovah came from an idea by Jewish elders and they made a vengeful God to deal with a violent world.

Fortunately, we did not create God; He created us. And as Jesus existed long before his human incarnation, nothing that exists is older than Him. And as He is the incarnation of God, anything else in all creation is only relevant as it pertains to Him.

And you would prove this how? Jesus never made that statement in all the books of the Bible. Considering he has only showed up once and that was a couple of thousand years back I'm not sure how concerned about the world he really is especially with all the bleakness dennis describes.

And you'd still be wrong.

I think there is a good chance one of us is wrong. Denial doesn't change things however. Perhaps you should read up on your religion it may expose some things you didn't expect.

[Edge]

The Jewish Torah is far from the earliest document in existence by thousands of years. Hundreds of Sumerian cunieform tablets, Indus scripts, and Egyptian treatises on all subjects are ancient compared to the Torah. Sorry but Jehovah came from an idea by Jewish elders and they made a vengeful God to deal with a violent world.

And you would prove this how? Given that the extant versions are copies of copies of copies of the original.

Sorry, but Jehovah is not an 'idea', He is the one true God who created the Heavens and the Earth.

And you would prove this how? Jesus never made that statement in all the books of the Bible. Considering he has only showed up once and that was a couple of thousand years back I'm not sure how concerned about the world he really is especially with all the bleakness dennis describes.

Actually, He did. He also told us how He has been around since the beginning of time, and as a special bonus, He also gave us an explanation for that bleakness Dennis spoke of.

I think there is a good chance one of us is wrong. Denial doesn't change things however. Perhaps you should read up on your religion it may expose some things you didn't expect.

Well, at least you're willing to admit you might be wrong. That's a good sign.

[ChoChiyo]

I don't have the specific quote, but C.S. Lewis once said that religion was like a math problem.

There is only one right answer, but some religious beliefs come closer to it than others.

I thought that was quite wise.

[dennisrwood]

as for the Levitical laws, Jesus replaced them.

[Avatar]

Some great posts folks. Perhaps naturally, I'm of the opinion of Kinslaughterer, and think that he sets it out very well.

As DragonLily said, we're approaching this from two completely different directions. As a christian, Edge is never going to accept the notion that gods are created by humanity, rather than the other way around.

As an anthropologist, Kinslaughterer (who it's great to see making such consistently excellent posts here more frequently now) is unlikely to accept that religion is anything more than a convenient human construct.

There is always the possibility that we are all wrong. In fact, I have a secret hope that some obscure tribal deity is actually the one true god, just for the surprise that it'll give everybody else.

Unfortunately, as much as we can debate it, nobody will ever be in a position to tell us once they find out. We have to wait to discover it for ourselves.

However, I see nothing wrong with basing a religion on love. Such a basis should make the world a better, happier place. But regardless of the supposed intention of the religious message, the intentions of man seem to be not so pure. It is man who creates those problems, and man who will eventually solve them, if they are solveable.

Chritians in general tell each other and us that god is love. When it comes to practicing that philosophy however, is where they tend to fall short. Not all of them, certainly. But far too many.

--Avatar

[Worm of Despite]

And, regarding God's existence, I don't know if it's true for everyone, but I yearn for a real connection/relationship with God the way a thirsty person yearns for water or a hungry person years for food.

Thirst wouldn't exist if there was no water, would it? And hunger wouldn't exist if there were no food, right?


So, would a person feel this yearning for something if there were not something there to fill the void?

Perhaps, but I feel no yearning for any kind of spiritual satiation, theistic or otherwise. Correct me if I'm wrong, but, by your logic, since I don't feel any "hunger", there must be nothing to be hungry for. Either that, or I simply have no void (or I'm not aware of it).

As an anthropologist, Kinslaughterer (who it's great to see making such consistently excellent posts here more frequently now)...

Agreed. Kin's posts are articulating things I could only form vague thoughts about.

[Dragonlily]

Perhaps, but I feel no yearning for any kind of spiritual satiation, theistic or otherwise. Correct me if I'm wrong, but, by your logic, since I don't feel any "hunger", there must be nothing to be hungry for. Either that, or I simply have no void (or I'm not aware of it).

As my beliefs go, if those things were right for you now, you would be yearning for them. This means you have other things to focus on. Maybe later that will change, maybe not. My two cents.