Questions about heaven

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Worm of Despite
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Questions about heaven

Post by Worm of Despite »

Yeah, I'm an atheist, but that doesn't mean I shouldn't take an interest in the various aspects of religion or study them for a broader understanding of both theology and our world today (Darth, I hope you're reading ;) ).

Anyway, here's a few ignorant questions and/or ramblings about heaven--the Christian one that I'm at least marginally familiar with and once believe in, anyway. So, here goes.

My grandmother is of the bent that there are streets of gold and mansions in heaven, but whenever she says that, I silently wonder what good such material possessions would do in the afterlife--especially the goldbrick streets. Oh well.

Also, is the Christian heaven a place of rolling hills and valleys, or is it a beautiful city, or what? What hard details do we have of it from the Bible and other theological sources?

Another thing I've always wondered: what if heaven isn't heaven for some people? I mean, yeah, this one guy’s idea of heaven might be going on hikes and being one with nature, but some other guy's heaven might be playing online computer games and eating pizza all day (my heaven).

So what if heaven's terms/conditions aren't a person's personal ideal? Do they become depressed, or do they completely forget about their own idea of heaven, because they're in the "presence of the Lord"? Is that how it works? Everyone's earthly aspirations, wants, and ideals just evaporate? I just don't like the idea of that, because those wants, ideals, and aspirations are a lot of what I am now and am going to be. And more importantly, I can't think of not having my sex drive. ;)

But really! Is heaven that great? I stop caring about all the vices and ways I had on earth? The concept just seems kind of robotic to me. Here I am, enjoying my mortal life--or wishing to keep it--and then the second I go splat and ascend to heaven, my wants just go away automatically?
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Post by ChoChiyo »

I have had these same thoughts and questions. The only thing that ever made sense to me regarding Heaven was the description in C.S. Lewis's final Narnia book The Last Battle. That was the only description of a heaven I wanted to go to. Just as Aslan was the most compelling Christ image I've ever come across.

The Narnia books are actually written for children, but I think they are very profound.

The gist of the Heaven image given in this book is that the earth is like a shadow of Heaven. Heaven is the true place--as much richer and fuller and more detailed as your body is when compared to its shadow.

In fact, C.S. Lewis has referred to this world as the "Shadowlands" often.

If Heaven is anything like the book Childhood's End where humanity is sucked into a soulless, identity-less "overmind"--then, I'll pass.

I may not be much, but I am all I have.


I was doing a lot of soul-searching this summer, and I wrote a couple of poems--they aren't very good, but they do truly reflect what I was thinking and feeling at the time I wrote them. They deal a bit with what you are talking about in your post.

So, read them if you want--or don't.



God, Who Are you, Really?


God, who are you, really?
So many people say they know.
An they'll be glad to tell me,
And also where I'll go.

Some say you are a stern-faced judge;
Some say that you are love;
Some say you're just a real old guy
Up in the clouds above.

Some say you keep a careful count
Of all the crimes I've done
And they tell me there are many,
Enough to block the sun.

Oh, I've been told I'm going to hell
Too many times to number,
For horrid crimes like talking back,
Or ignoring work to slumber.

God, do you really care at all
If I have a tattoo?
Or more than one or even two?
Does it matter much to you?

When I was only eight years old
And threw a screaming fit,
Did you make black marks on my white page
To rub my nose in it?

Or when I was up in my teens
And told my dad to die,
(I really didn't mean it.)
Did my words make you cry?

Do you keep track of every sin
No matter how minute?
Lots of them were just mistakes--
Ignorance their root.

And when I did some real bad stuff
My heart brim full of malice
And hurt someone who had hurt me
And took sick pride in this

I always learned that it was me
Who really paid the price
Always the guilt filled up my soul
And nibbled me like mice.

Some say you are salvation
And always will forgive,
But, they say, I must confess
And change the way I live.

There's the rub that puzzles me
'Cause I don't understand
Just how to change my nature
To fit what you have planned.

Some say you want me to be good
And by that, what they mean
Is that they must control my life
Or my soul will be unclean.

I've read the Bible many times,
One cover to the other,
So much to grasp and comprehend,
I feel like I will smother.

And there is always someone
Who swears that he is wise
Who's willing to instruct me,
But I don't trust his eyes.

It's too easy to manipulate
The verses that they read
To imply almost anything
And force others to heed.

And that is why I wonder
And write this poem to thee
God, who are you, really?
Will you show yourself to me?
When I Get to Heaven

When I get to Heaven
And stand outside the door,
Will Jesus come to greet me,
Or will I drop right through the floor?

When the dusty ledger opens
And he turns it to my page,
Will his eyes glitter with pleasure,
Or his brow furrow with rage?

Will he show me what is written there
Penned in his own hand:
The evil actions weighed in stones,
The good in grains of sand?

The world is deep and broad and wide;
To live in it's the goal.
Each day a hundred million trials
Spring up to test my soul.

And some days I am tired,
And some days I am sad.
And some days (sigh) I just don't care,
And so I choose the bad.

Some days, I feel quite content.
And even so, I fear,
My choices are just not that great--
The worst ways I could steer.

Some days I swear and stamp my feet
Because I'm feeling irked,
And so I jerk somebody's chain
Because my chain's been jerked.

And some days I just tell a lie
For no reason that is known
Except it suits me to evade
A thing that makes me groan.

When I think back on my fell deeds,
They mostly make me sad.
It hurts to look into my heart,
And see that I am bad.

And yet I feel a longing toward
The things both right and pure.
And I look up toward heaven
And contemplate a cure.

God, I believe, can fix me up
And change my wrong to right.
But how will I be different then?
Will I be strange in my own sight?

If not myself, I wonder now,
Just who I might become.
And wonder too, I must admit,
If I'll loath the changes some.

Who I am is all I've had
For many, many years,
It's overcome some dismal days
And crossed o'er lakes of tears.

And it's hard for me to let it go,
This bitter thing I am,
As in some way I cherish it
Though it isn't worth a damn.

And so I ponder as I sit
And contemplate God's plans
If I deserve to enter in
To God's true holy lands.

I feel I should be on my knees
To plead for my salvation
Instead of feeling hesitant
To submit to alteration.

I guess it boils right down to trust
And that for me is hard
Even when it's God himself,
I can't let down my guard.

And so I think of Heaven,
And I fret about my fate.
When I stand there at the doorway,
Will they open up the gate?
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Post by Cail »

My thoughts on Heaven and Hell may be very simplistic, but what the hey...

Heaven is what is Heaven to you. For me it'll be hanging with my friends and family, it may be something different for you.

Hell for me will be sitting in rush hour traffic in an overheating Ferarri with a slipping clutch and Loverboy is the only thing on the radio.
"There is only one basic human right, the right to do as you damn well please. And with it comes the only basic human duty, the duty to take the consequences." - PJ O'Rourke
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"Men and women range themselves into three classes or orders of intelligence; you can tell the lowest class by their habit of always talking about persons; the next by the fact that their habit is always to converse about things; the highest by their preference for the discussion of ideas." - Charles Stewart
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Post by ChoChiyo »

Cail wrote:My thoughts on Heaven and Hell may be very simplistic, but what the hey...

Heaven is what is Heaven to you. For me it'll be hanging with my friends and family, it may be something different for you.

Hell for me will be sitting in rush hour traffic in an overheating Ferarri with a slipping clutch and Loverboy is the only thing on the radio.

Hell, indeed. Though for me, it would be some nasal, twangy country western chick singing about how her lover done did her wrong, but she'd take him back today--if only he'd fix her truck.
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Post by Furls Fire »

I go by my brother's visions of his heaven, his home. It was light and peace, and it was a garden and a small cottage along the river Jordan. Jesus spoke to him there many times before he passed on. He showed it to Stephen. My brother knew where he was going.

I will dwell inside the Sacred Heart, and there will be perpetual peace and glorious light. And I will have no end. Jesus speaks to me of such wonders. Heaven. --Stephen, July 2001

So, that is heaven to me.

And hell, that is the place where there is no finding the Lord. My hell would be not feeling His presence around me all the time. Being without His light, His love, His grace, His hope. Being without Him. That is hell.
And I believe in you
altho you never asked me too
I will remember you
and what life put you thru.


~fly fly little wing, fly where only angels sing~

~this world was never meant for one as beautiful as you~

...for then I could fly away and be at rest. Sweet rest, Mom. We all love and miss you.

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Re: Questions about heaven

Post by Fist and Faith »

Lord Foul wrote:Another thing I've always wondered: what if heaven isn't heaven for some people? I mean, yeah, this one guy’s idea of heaven might be going on hikes and being one with nature, but some other guy's heaven might be playing online computer games and eating pizza all day (my heaven).
I'd say that, if a Heaven truly is Heaven, it would have to be a reality where one guy hikes and is one with nature, and the other has the computer and pizza. It could not be paradise for all if it did not allow all to realize their own version of Heaven.

Of course, this concept is based on my limited experience of existence. This physical form. What if our awareness expands considerably when we die? What if there is one single state of existence that truly fulfills all of us when we exist in that state?
All lies and jest
Still a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest
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Re: Questions about heaven

Post by Worm of Despite »

Fist and Faith wrote:
Lord Foul wrote:Another thing I've always wondered: what if heaven isn't heaven for some people? I mean, yeah, this one guy’s idea of heaven might be going on hikes and being one with nature, but some other guy's heaven might be playing online computer games and eating pizza all day (my heaven).
I'd say that, if a Heaven truly is Heaven, it would have to be a reality where one guy hikes and is one with nature, and the other has the computer and pizza. It could not be paradise for all if it did not allow all to realize their own version of Heaven.
Yeah, I was sort of thinking that; reminds me of that movie "What Dreams May Come", where people had their own personal areas, and the "public" area was basically everyone agreeing on a shared vision. Or something.

And if there is an existence beyond this one--one that completely eclipses our current lives--than no wonder I can't fathom it!
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Post by onewyteduck »

Something was sent to me a long time ago, I wish I still had it, that described my idea of heaven.......A man got to the pearly gates with his dog, he was on the list for admittance, he could see the streets of gold, hear the angels singing, etc. and it all looked quite beautiful. When he started to go inside, St. Peter told him he couldn't bring his dog in and that if he wanted to stay with his dog, he needed to go down the road. So, the man left.

He walked down the road for a while and was getting thirsty. He came upon an old run down farm house with an old man sitting on the porch. He asked if he could get some water from the well and the old man told he was more than welcome and to get some for his dog, too. When he asked what the place was, the old man said, "Well, some call it heaven."

That was the gist of it. Heaven is what you want it to be and I can't imagine being without the canine members of my family.
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Post by ChoChiyo »

I wonder if heaven isn't the place that earth would have been but for the fall of man and the origin of sinning and such. In which case, it would be a beautiful garden, filled with all of the beasts and birds, where we will walk side by side in fellowship with God.

That sounds pretty good to me.

And Heaven will be no Heaven for me if it doesn't have cats and dogs.
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Post by Fist and Faith »

Duck, that's something like an episode of The Twilight Zone. The old guy and his dog died while hunting. When they got to the pearly gates, he was told that dogs weren't allowed in. He said, "If my dog ain't good enough for Heaven, then neither am I," and they continued on down the road. Eventually, they came to the real Heaven, which didn't look as fancy-schmancy. But dogs are allowed.
All lies and jest
Still a man hears what he wants to hear
And disregards the rest
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Post by Furls Fire »

I believe what my brother was shown, he was shown in that way so as he would understand it. We are human, we have only human understanding. What heaven is, is quite frankly, beyond us. So, in that context, I think Heaven will be what we want it to be. But it will bathed in the grace of God. :)
And I believe in you
altho you never asked me too
I will remember you
and what life put you thru.


~fly fly little wing, fly where only angels sing~

~this world was never meant for one as beautiful as you~

...for then I could fly away and be at rest. Sweet rest, Mom. We all love and miss you.

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Post by onewyteduck »

Fist and Faith wrote:Duck, that's something like an episode of The Twilight Zone. The old guy and his dog died while hunting. When they got to the pearly gates, he was told that dogs weren't allowed in. He said, "If my dog ain't good enough for Heaven, then neither am I," and they continued on down the road. Eventually, they came to the real Heaven, which didn't look as fancy-schmancy. But dogs are allowed.
That was a Twilight Zone episode? 8O I can't believe I missed it! Will definitely have to check it out. Thanks, Fist and Faith.
Be kind to your web-footed friends, for a duck may be somebody's mother.
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Post by ChoChiyo »

Furls Fire wrote:I believe what my brother was shown, he was shown in that way so as he would understand it. We are human, we have only human understanding. What heaven is, is quite frankly, beyond us. So, in that context, I think Heaven will be what we want it to be. But it will bathed in the grace of God. :)
There is that verse about seeing through a glass darkly now--but seeing face to face later.

And also, Heaven is infinite, while our minds are finite....which makes grasping the whole shebang a little harder.
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Post by dennisrwood »

my wife laughs, because my view of heaven is New Hampshire. and we own a farm that i work on for the rest of eternity. i have a garden and animals to care for. the is a forest and a duck pond. no fences, the animals all get along. i rise at 4amish and start to feed the animals. i tend to the garden and don't get back till lunch. then in the afternoon we walk in the forest, tending to those animals. on saturday we may go to town. on SUnday we go to Church. Julie (my wife) says she isn't sure why i want to work for eternity. :)

also all of my family is there. i get to meet my brother Paul and my child, Sydney. and i get to have my Dad and Grandfather over the house.

oh and i want to meet Otis Redding so i can hear him sing "To Love Somebody". the Bee Gees wrote it for him, but he died before getting a chance to record it.
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Post by Gadget nee Jemcheeta »

I hope there is a heaven, but I'm willing to accept it if there isn't. If there was a heaven for me, I can't even begin to imagine what it would be like. So often what I've thought would bring me happiness hasn't, so I'm not willing to say that what I think I want heaven to be like is anything like real happiness.
If there was an earth like heaven, it would be one where I wasn't compelled to do things for any reason other than personal growth. So many of my decisions and how I spend my time are based on financial concerns :(
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Post by Avatar »

The earth can be heaven or hell, as people themselves desire. If only more people realised it.

I like to think about different possibilities for an afterlife, and they're thoughts that on some level I wish are going to be true. But regardless of what I like to believe, I fully understand the unlikeliness of it, and what I actually expect, is oblivion.

Of course if I'm right, I'll never know. So I don't let it worry me. I concentrate on the here and now usually, and work on making this life as pleasant as I can.

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Post by Gadget nee Jemcheeta »

The earth can be heaven or hell, as people themselves desire. If only more people realised it.
That's very true. However, it's also the most difficult and meaningful journey the human person can ever embark on, as far as I'm concerned. That's the sort of journey that you can lose everything on. It's no wonder people don't feel inclined to start it.
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Post by ChoChiyo »

In addition to the two comments above me, here, I'd like to say that we as individuals have a lot of power to make the world we live in more heavenly or more hellish for others. We can do this in so many ways that they'd be impossible to list. Somewhere there's a quote that says something along the lines of "Will the world be a better place or a worse place because you were in it?"

And there's another one that says, "When you entered this world, the world rejoiced and you cried. Live your life so that when you leave it, you rejoice and everyone else cries."

I don't want anyone to cry! But I would like to leave the world just a little bit better for my presence.
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Post by Cail »

When I was younger and still had delusions of making it as a "professional" musician, my goal was to leave people very confused about my life. I would have liked to have seen a carrer retrospective titled "What the Hell Was He Thinking?".

As I've gotten older and hopefully wiser, and a lot more comfortable with who I am and my place in the world, my only hope is that when I do go, people will be able to look at my life and say that they were glad to have known me. I don't think that's conceit either, I just hope that I've been a decent guy to hang out with.
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Post by ChoChiyo »

In the end, when all is said and done, I think the basic "decent guys (and gals) to hang around with" are what makes a place Heaven or Hell. YOu can have an awesome leader, but if all your colleagues are assholes, it's still a grim place to work.

On the other hand, you can work for the world's biggest Anal Blister, and still love your job if you work with good people.

I'm glad to know you in the very limited way that I do! (You're a hoot.)
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Take that, you Varlet! :P
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