Proof of God

[Cybrweez]

Punishment is justified only if it gives a chance of retribution. Eternal punishment is only a primitive form of vengeance, something that really doesn't suit a higher being.

Like I said, if you don't like the way God works, you can ignore Him. I don't know if He cares what you think suits Him or not. IOW, He doesn't act based on how you think a higher being should. Like He told Moses, I Am That I Am. I have plenty of questions I'd love God to answer, alot of "why?"s. But I believe truth is truth, whether I understand or desire it or not.

Also, some mentioned the fact that people would only follow God to avoid hell. I don't believe so, and I don't believe that's what He desires. To use children again, if I have rules, and consequences for breaking the rules, my kid has 2 reasons to obey: b/c he fears the consequences, or b/c of his love for his father, and the desire to respect him. They may both lead to obedience, but stem from different motives. If you study the Bible, God cares about motives, and our heart, not our actions. That's why the Pharisees got Jesus so angry.

[ChoChiyo]

I haven't a clue what will really happen in the afterlife. But I would also find it difficult to sincerely love a God would send people to hell for all eternity for not loving him. It would be like me soaking someone with gasoline and setting him on fire for not loving ME.

It doesn't seem right.

How can you force love through fear? Love me or I will continuously beat the shit out of you every day forever and ever.

Myself, I suspect that hell will be a separation from god. This existence is so temporal--how do we know that there might not be a second chance to get to know God in his real self after we leave this existence?

Unfortunately, the malicious and punitive God is the one I was raised with--and thus, I find it very hard to trust him. It is quite easy, on the other hand, to fear him.

Alas.

[Nathan]

I think it's unfair to have to love someone with no love in return.

Yes I know "God loves us all", but where is the evidence, God could hate me and I'd still feel no difference at all.

Why should eternal happiness depend on blind faith?

[Worm of Despite]

I haven't a clue what will really happen in the afterlife. But I would also find it difficult to sincerely love a God would send people to hell for all eternity for not loving him. It would be like me soaking someone with gasoline and setting him on fire for not loving ME.

It doesn't seem right.

Nah, it just takes a little getting used to!

[ChoChiyo]

Do you love me, Lord Foul?

If your answer is no, will you come just a little closer--and hold this lit match.....

[Cail]

Nathan, with all due respect, God does love you. You may not see it or feel it, but that doesn't mean that He's not with you. You may not recognize it (if I recall, you're rather young) yet, but someday, hopefully you will. Through my early 20s I had no time for God, and quite frankly thought that if He did exist, it was solely to s*** on me. I came around, but it took a long, long time. I can look back at those tough times now, and see that when I thought things were at the worst, that was when he was closest to me. Even though I hated Him through so much of those times.

'Taint blind faith my man, I see the workings of God every day.


Edit by mod for language. Carry on folks.

[Nathan]

As I said, even if God hated me I'd know no difference, I can't feel it.

How come you can see the workings of God but I can't? How is that fair, it seems that he's giving you more of a reason to believe than he's giving me. That's not fair.

[Furls Fire]

Oh Nathan,

"How come you can see the workings of God and I can't?" Could it be that you just aren't looking in the right place? There is no where to look but inside your own heart, inside your own soul. You won't find God outside yourself. Here is where faith comes in. God IS Love. God is Life. If you have Him in your heart you see Him everywhere and in everything. Once you choose to let Him in, you will find Him.

Now, I can't tell you how to do that. I can't tell you how to find faith, belief. For me, it's natural. I has always been there. Here are some things my brother said to another person named Nathan. This may help people who believe that God is vengeful and will cast down His children...

From March 27, 1996, journal entry about Nathan James (John Doe):

“I really don’t know, John. I just go by my faith and my belief. And my belief is that our God is not a vengeful God, but a loving one. He doesn’t cast down His children just because they fail themselves, or throw His gifts back at him. Where do you think forgiveness comes from? Besides, looks to me like you’ve punished yourself sufficiently.”

And From April 27. 1996 another entry about Nathan James:

“What does that mean? How did you throw yourself back at God?”

He [Nathan] smiled then, but this time, it was a smile devoid of happiness, one of those smiles that would break a face if it were made of glass. “Do you really want to know?” At that precise second, I realized that I didn’t. But, I also knew that God wanted me to hear this man, wanted me to help this man, for whatever reason. I needed that answer.

“Yes.”

He pulled in a long rattled breath and physically sagged, his eyes leaked tears and he made no effort to wipe them away. “I killed my family. I had a wife once. Two beautiful kids, both girls. Taught literature at a high school over in Atherton. Life, as they say in the movies, was good. I thanked God everyday for my blessings. But, I didn’t take care of them. I took them for granted, you see. I started to nip a bit at the bottle. Money seemed to be a growing reason to nip at it more and more, until I was gulping. Thing is, I was one of those drunks that seemed for all the world to be sober. I walked steady, talked steady, and…” He broke off there, finally wiped at his eyes which he had staring down a the long counter, he pulled them up to my face and finished that sentence. I’ve never seen anyone look so haunted. “..I drove steady. My wife beside me in our little Toyota Corolla, my little girls in the back seat, I was driving, drunk out of my mind. I jumped a curve, the car swung and hit a tree on my wife’s side, smashing it in.” He choked then, began to weep harder, cough harder. I put my hand on his shoulder.

“John, you don’t have to finish…”

“Yes I do, that’s not the end of it. Though it was the end of a man named, Nathan James.” He put his face in his hands. So I waited. The Gallery mercifully empty. God made sure of that it seems. “There was a trial, and jail time, then a release for good behavior. I had 15 years to think about how I murdered my family. I promptly tried to kill myself, more then once.” He smiled that awful smile again. “But, God, oh He has a way of making you get what you wished for the hard way. Things happen to you in prison, and I deserved every thing I got. I didn’t try to stop any of it, became used to it. And when I left, it came with me, and I carry it around now.” He pointed again at his lesions. “The mark of prison, the mark of a murderer, the mark of God’s answer to my wish to die. It won’t be quick and easy, no sir. Now, you tell me, Steve McKinney, how is it that I’m not meant for hell?”

Ah, dear sweet Jesus, Lord. This is beyond me. You were the Voice that stilled the storms, calmed the seas. You were the Hands that healed the suffering and strengthened the weak You were the Man that walked on water and rose in light from the Dead. I’m none of that. What wisdom do I have for this?

I was silent for a long time and listened to his weeping, my own tears spilling. My heart ached for him, my soul searched for the words, the ones that would take away his pain. Then I realized I could not, I could only offer him my belief, my faith, my hope. This is what God wanted of me. This was why I was meant to hear this man. “You are not meant for hell because you seek forgiveness, because you are so full of remorse that you believe that what was done to you in prison was deserved, that AIDS was deserved. Nathan, what happened to your family was a tragedy, such a horrific tragedy that it broke you beyond mending. Now, you walk in the limbo of life, seeking things to bring you pain, seeking darkness, seeking quick death. Do you believe God wants this? You say you have thrown yourself back at Him. This is true, and you are still doing it. I believe He sent you to me to tell you that you must not do it anymore. Do you think your wife and children want to see you like this? Do you think they enjoy this pain you inflict on yourself? Oh, Nathan, no. I believe they are weeping, I believe if they could they would plead with you to cease your endless search for hell. They aren’t suffering because of the car wreck. They are in Heaven. You bring them pain just by tossing away your own life.”

For those of you not familiar with my brother, I invite you to his memorial thread, which I set up in the Hall of Gifts. There, you may find some answers to your questions about faith.

[caamora]

Furls & Cail, I could not have answered better.

During my 20's I still had my faith - I have never lost that - but I DID lose my way. I did not follow God's word, although He never left me. He waited until I asked for Him. He waited until I REALLY WANTED Him. Then, He made His presence known full-force. Believe me, the past year has probably been the most taxing of my life for a number of reasons and God has been there for me every step of the way. He has supplied me with whatever I needed. I also came to realize that He never left me all those years - He just waited patiently, keeping an eye out for me, perhaps leading me in a certain direction without me knowing it. Let me tell you, it is the coolest thing!

[Furls Fire]

caam

From a song by Jimmy Wayne:


He said "Forgive me, Father,"
when he realized,
That he hadn't been unloved
or alone all his life.
His arms were stretched out
as far as they'd go,
Nailed to the cross,
for the whole world to know...

"I love you this much
and I'm waiting on you
to make up your mind
do you love Me too?

However long it takes
I've never given up
now matter what...
I love you this much"

God is not vengeful, God is Love.

[Baradakas]

To add to all of this: nowhere, I repeat NOWHERE in the Bible does it say that we burn in hell forever. It states that those who had been shown God and man's true purpose, who had been touched by the essence of divinity, after the war of saints and men, who still rejected God would be destroyed, not tormented for eternity. God is love, people. Love is not tormenting you forever. It is giving you opportunity after opportunity to see the light during your lifetime. Then after that, giving you one more chance after God ressurects you, at which point you spit in His face for all His efforts, that He finally gives up and casts you away.

Yes, into eternal emptiness.
Yes, you cease to exist.
And yes, I feel that after all the chances and choices he offers us, that our repeated disrespect and scorn of Him validates our destruction.

-B

[Worm of Despite]

Do you love me, Lord Foul?

If your answer is no, will you come just a little closer--and hold this lit match.....

Darn, and I really like playing with fire!

Then after that, giving you one more chance after God ressurects you, at which point you spit in His face for all His efforts, that He finally gives up and casts you away.

You're suggesting that after I'm resurrected, God is going to ask me if I want to go to heaven or not? So, everything I've done in life has no basis in his final judgment, and it's just a "yes or no"? That's what I'm reading into that quote. Please clarify!

As a personal note, I’d rather not exist than accept the "love" of a God that would destroy me eternally for not believing in him. Torture or not, I don't like ultimatums. Ultimatums aren’t love--especially with such dire consequences.

[Baradakas]

Ok, clarification. It is not an ultimatum. God reveals His divine plan, your place in that plan and gives you another lifetime to try and follow that plan. If you follow it, and you accept His love, you are allowed to live forever on earth, (no one goes to Heaven except Elijah and Jesus), and help rule. Fail again, (i.e. allow yourself to be tempted by Satan, and join in his despicable rebellion), and you are cast into a lake of fire where you are consumed.

Again, the Bible states very clearly, people who are dead in this present age are not in heaven/hell, but are asleep, awaiting the Tribulation, at which point the saints are resurrected, judged according to thier works and then rule with Jesus for a thousand years.

After that, comes the White Throne Judgement. All of us that have not been blessed with a true understanding of God's message, or those who never had the chance (i.e. YOU ) are given a true understanding of God, and about 100 years to live a life according to the Word. It is at this point in Revelation, that Satan is released for the last time on the earth to tempt those lucky folks. Again, keep in mind that God gives you an entire extra life to live, so that you have the chance to live a virtuous life in the name of God. If, after being given divine understanding of God's love, you still reject Him and allow yourself to be influenced by Satan, the Creator of our entire universe, the being who made it possible for you to be born, who has the right to do whatever He likes with His creation, decides to cast your soul into a kiln to be destroyed, what right do you have to complain? Did you form the cosmos? Did you make man in your own image, and give him the choice to make his own mistakes, after showing him the path of rigtheousness? Did you let him and his run thier own world for 6000 years, slaughtering and raping the land and each other? The very land you created to support him? Did you let your creation slaughter your only son so that that creation might have a chance to make things right with you? If you cannot answer yes to any of these questions, then stating that God is a cruel deity, or that you shouldnt have to answer to Him is asenine at best.

If you simply do not believe in God, then I can see where you are coming from. But those that believe there is a higher power, yet feel that He has no right to judge them make me very angry. How arrogant, I say!

Anyway, that should serve as clarification.

[Worm of Despite]

Ok, clarification. It is not an ultimatum. God reveals His divine plan, your place in that plan and gives you another lifetime to try and follow that plan. If you follow it, and you accept His love, you are allowed to live forever on earth, (no one goes to Heaven except Elijah and Jesus), and help rule. Fail again, (i.e. allow yourself to be tempted by Satan, and join in his despicable rebellion), and you are cast into a lake of fire where you are consumed.

Again, the Bible states very clearly, people who are dead in this present age are not in heaven/hell, but are asleep, awaiting the Tribulation, at which point the saints are resurrected, judged according to thier works and then rule with Jesus for a thousand years.

After that, comes the White Throne Judgement. All of us that have not been blessed with a true understanding of God's message, or those who never had the chance (i.e. YOU ) are given a true understanding of God, and about 100 years to live a life according to the Word. It is at this point in Revelation, that Satan is released for the last time on the earth to tempt those lucky folks.

Wow! Most interesting, even for a nonbeliever as I. Being a student of religious history/theology (casual, at best), you've opened up a vast well-spring of knowledge I never knew!

If you simply do not believe in God, then I can see where you are coming from.

Phew! But, my unbelief is more about personal comfort, rather than me seeing something wrong with a specific religion/message and being turned off by it. In fact, whenever I turn my eye to religion, the first thing I feel is respect. I look at the good things, not dissect and pick out the bad. If I do take issue with something, it’s usually something I didn’t understand (like now).

Okay, I’m about to go a little off-topic and ramble. I hope it’s enjoyable, though. Here goes:

I find that religions are an excellent thing for society, giving place and purpose. I find it interesting how religions differ from region to region; what I mean is, Egypt’s lands had predictable floods and they didn’t face many invasions because of their isolated location, and I think this showed in how their deities behaved. The deities, like Osiris, had a sense of justice--there was a promising afterlife, something to look forward to. Egypt's rituals of mummifications most likely arose from living in a land where the climate preserved things much easier. Stuff like that.

Another example: in the Fertile Crescent, during the Mesopotamia era, there was a lot of unpredictable flooding and a lot of invasions; suitably, their Gods reflect that; the Gods have little to no concern for the humans. In fact, they cause the flood in Gilgamesh not because of sin but because the humans were too noisy and they couldn’t sleep! Humans were playthings, and you went to an underworld where you faded away, reflecting the harsh reality of the Fertile Crescent during that era. Ramble over!

[ChoChiyo]

Ummmm.....interesting post.....

What about the thief who was crucified with Jesus and was told (by Jesus) "Today you will walk with me in Paradise"? Is he in heaven with Jesus and Elijah too?

If, after being given divine understanding of God's love, you still reject Him and allow yourself to be influenced by Satan, the Creator of our entire universe, the being who made it possible for you to be born, who has the right to do whatever He likes with His creation, decides to cast your soul into a kiln to be destroyed, what right do you have to complain?

This is hard for me to grasp. God repeatedly refers to us humans as "his children," in fact, in one beautiful passage in the old testament, it says (this is a paraphrase since I don't have my Bible at hand) "Before you were born I *knew* you. I have carved your name in the palms of my hands. I will never forget you. I will never forsake you."

When God gave us free will, did he really sit back and say, "I'll give 'em free will, but if they don't do what I want, into the fire with the bastards! I made 'em, I can make more." I just can't wrap my mind around a god that would behave that way--more like a spoiled selfish child than a loving father. And it certainly doesn't sound like the God who said he carved my name in his hand before I was born...who will NEVER forget me or forsake me.

I'm not saying that God doesn't have the right to judge--but I do believe we should be able to expect him to be fair and rational. I think when all is said and done, we are ALL going to be very surprised by what God really is and how he really thinks.

A lot of the stuff in the Bible, especially in Revelations is very metaphorical, and it drives ME nuts when people interpret the whole Bible literally.

I respect your right to believe whatever you want. But it just isn't how I interpret what I read in the Bible. (No offense intended.)

[Fist and Faith]

To add to all of this: nowhere, I repeat NOWHERE in the Bible does it say that we burn in hell forever.

Weeeeellllll... Clearly, there are widely differing interpretations of the Bible. I can certainly see how people got this idea from passages like these:

Matthew 5:22 But I say to you that every one who is angry with his brother shall be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother shall be liable to the council, and whoever says, "you fool!" shall be liable to the hell of fire.

Matthew 13:49-50 So it will be at the close of the age. The angels will come out and separate the evil from the righteous, and throw them into the furnace of fire; there men will weep and gnash their teeth.

Revelation 14:9-11 And another angel, a third, followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If any one worships the beast and its image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand, he also shall drink the wine of God's wrath, poured unmixed into the cup of his anger, and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment goes up for ever and ever; and they have no rest, day or night, these worshipers of the beast and its image, and whoever receives the mark of its name."

Not to say I think these passages can only be interpreted as "burn in Hell forever." But they certainly can't be be interpreted as "none will burn in Hell forever." Of course, considering these in conjunction with the rest of the Bible might give one a different interpretation than just looking at them on their own.

Ok, clarification. It is not an ultimatum. God reveals His divine plan, your place in that plan and gives you another lifetime to try and follow that plan. If you follow it, and you accept His love, you are allowed to live forever on earth, (no one goes to Heaven except Elijah and Jesus), and help rule.

I also understand how people get that idea from passages like these:

Matthew 5:5 Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth.

Psalms 37:28-29 For the Lord loves justice; he will not forsake his saints. The righteous shall be preserved for ever, but the children of the wicked shall be cut off. The righteous shall possess the land, and dwell upon it for ever.

(btw, are you a Jehovah's Witness?)

the Creator of our entire universe, the being who made it possible for you to be born, who has the right to do whatever He likes with His creation, decides to cast your soul into a kiln to be destroyed, what right do you have to complain? Did you form the cosmos? Did you make man in your own image, and give him the choice to make his own mistakes, after showing him the path of rigtheousness? Did you let him and his run thier own world for 6000 years, slaughtering and raping the land and each other? The very land you created to support him? Did you let your creation slaughter your only son so that that creation might have a chance to make things right with you? If you cannot answer yes to any of these questions, then stating that God is a cruel deity, or that you shouldnt have to answer to Him is asenine at best.

If you simply do not believe in God, then I can see where you are coming from. But those that believe there is a higher power, yet feel that He has no right to judge them make me very angry. How arrogant, I say!

What happens if humans eventually create Artificial Intelligence? Would we then have the right to do whatever we want with it? I would be hugely ashamed of humanity (again) if we went that route. IMHO, any being with that kind of self-awareness has certain rights that even its creator has no right to mess with. If you attempt to hurt others (or succeed), you should be prevented from doing so again. No form of torture is necessary. Not eternal torture, nor even the temporary pain of being destroyed by fire. Especially when the God you believe in could simply erase us from existence instantly and painlessly. Especially especially if your "crime" is that, although you lived a life helping and loving others, you didn't do it "in the name of God." This is why I do not believe your God exists. It's the mutually exclusive idea again. I do not think that an omnipotent, omniescent being could act in such ways. That kind of power being driven by that kind of ego could only lead to destruction. Since the universe is still here, it just can't be.

[Fist and Faith]

Yes I know "God loves us all", but where is the evidence, God could hate me and I'd still feel no difference at all.

I don't see how this statement is supportable. Maybe God's love is the spark of life in us. Maybe it is why our medulla oblongata maintains our autonomic functions. Maybe if God hated you, you would simply die.

Or maybe God's hate would feel like absolute despair, or depression, or rage.

No, I'm not arguing that any of these suggestions is the actual case, I'm just saying that you can't know that God's hate would be imperceivable.

[Avatar]

Some great posts here folks. A pleasure reading them.

...I don't see why a God that created this universe can't write a book that doesn't change.

If god did create the universe, I too don't see why he can't write a book which doesn't change. Of course, nobody can deny that the bible has changed over the years, and not necessarily only in terms of translational errors, but in actual content editing by various people and churches.

Personally, if the christians are right, I'll take hell thank you very much.
--Avatar

Unfortunately, you haven't gotten to know the God of the Bible. It seems from this statement your opinion of Him is based on christians' ideas.

Well, I did say "if the christians are right...

God cares about motives, and our heart, not our actions.

Are you suggesting that as long as our hearts are in the right place, it doesn't matter what we do or how we live? This is one of my problems. As far as I see it, god should care most about the way in which we live our lives, rather than whether or not we believe in him. You are saying that it doesn't matter how good a life I live, if I don't believe in god, I might as well not bother being "good".

Furls-- Aah, I do love reading your brothers writings, he had such a way with words. It sometimes seems to me that his faith brought him more pain than comfort though.

I think when all is said and done, we are ALL going to be very surprised by what God really is and how he really thinks.

I hope that you're right Cho.

[Fist and Faith]

I don't claim to be all-loving, yet there is nothing my children could do that would make me cast them into eternal hellfire. And for those who think God does not cast us there, but only lets us make choices that cause us to go there, if it was in my infinite power, I would not allow such a place to exist. IMO, the ideas of Hell and an all-loving, omnipotent being are mutually exclusive. If I somehow find that this truly is how things are, then I reject this God. I could not love such a being. And, if I decided to follow this God, it would only be out of fear of eternal pain, rather than things like love, respect, gratitude, and the belief that God's way is good and just. Surely an omniescent being would know that I was faking.

You forget a thing called justice. If you had rules for your child and they broke them, are they punished? Is there consequences? You could ignore your own rules and never punish them, but is that in your child's best interest? I would think most would agree a child that gets his way in everything won't be an enjoyable child, or adult. God has created a set of rules, and breaking them results in death. An unjust God would ignore his rules and let everyone off the hook. However, God is both loving and just, which seem to me to be two good qualities. Its one thing to say you don't like the way He set things up, so you'll have nothing to do w/Him. But I don't see how His justice is mutually exclusive from His love.

My position is not that justice is mutually exclusive from love. My position is that eternal torture is not justice. Not even Hitler and Stalin deserve to burn eternally.

[Fist and Faith]

However, those of you who are athiests, who have not studied the Bible, are no experts either!

Hey, I resemble that remark!!

As far as hell goes, I know some people believe that God would not, under any circumstances throw his beloved children into an eternal pit of fire. Rather, God would make them cease to exist. I can not, however, back that up with any biblical reference.

Of course, much of the discussion on this thread is, to arguable degrees of accuracy, about the Biblical God. In that regard, needing Biblical references is necessary. (And I imagine Baradakas can supply them. ) But for those like me, since I do not believe the Bible to be the one true source of information about God, they are not. I believe knowledge of our creator, if there is one, can be found in more places than we could possibly count. Yes, including the Bible, but only as its words are other people's views of God. But the same is true of the Bhagavad Gita, Koran, etc. And what's more, I'd think we should be able to understand our creator by studying the cycles of nature, the laws of physics, mathematics; listening to music, the wind; etc etc etc etc etc etc. If I believed there was a creator, I would not believe in an eternal pit of fire, because I can see no sign of it anywhere other than in the views of a few people who lived millennia ago who wrote down what they thought God was.

(I tell you, I don't know why I get myself into these conversations! Nothing is ever solved and we end up never seeing eye to eye. Too bad that we cannot reach a compomise )

Isn't compromise supposed to be the Satan's tool?