Proof of God

[Fist and Faith]

And my point is that your belief is your belief, but I don't see anything illogical or crazy about it, I just see that you don't like God's rules and His consequences. You say they are mutually exclusive, but really all I hear is you don't like His ways. You think its unfair, but who are we to question whether our Creator is unfair? For one thing, we don't even know half of what's going on. Plus, He created you! Can the clay say I don't like being this vase? Make me a bowl? When I hear "its not fair", I hear selfishness quite honestly. Its human nature to think we deserve better. Our definition of fairness is based on our beliefs, which are biased for our own benefit.

Well, Cy, I'm thinking you and I aren't likely to agree on much in this thread. Absolutely true, I do not like the ways of the God that you believe exists. Once again, I'll post this short quote. There's a fantasy book, The Kundalini Equation, by Steven Barnes, where one character is doing a lot of searching, questioning, etc, about life, God, etc. During an appearance, a woman in the audience asked, "Mr. Patanjal, how does it feel to know that you are going to burn in hell?" And he answered:

"Madame, the divine force which you believe in and the one in which I believe are obviously two different beings. If in a sincere quest for understanding and knowledge I have erred, I am deeply sorry, and await a sign from the Almighty that will teach me the error of my ways. I simply believe in the virtues of sincere intellectual curiosity. An eagerness to use the mind and feelings that God himself gave me to inquire into mysteries rather than merely accept the explanation othat other men have passed down through the years. If for this I will be cast into fires everlasting, then God is indeed the malign thug of which Mark Twain wrote, and his hell could certainly be no more insufferable than his heaven."

Patanjal doesn't specifically say what he would do if he did, indeed, get his sign from the Almighty that things are as you believe they are. But I can give you my response. Although I would have no reason to continue searching for the answers, I would still be incapable of loving and following that God. It is not in my makeup to love a being who does things like cast people into Hell. Or who, to prove to another how well He is worshipped, tells a man to sacrifice his son, and allows another's life to be ruined.

However, as I've said, I do not find these things to be consistent with an all-loving, omnipotent being. Yes, it's only my logic, but I'm stuck with mine, just as you're stuck with yours. (Perhaps my logic was given to me by God? I assume you don't think so, although I don't know why.) Since I have no reason to believe otherwise, I believe that such stories were written by men who were trying to describe what they thought was absolute faith, not factual accounts of the behavior of God.

Basically, I think you limit God's motivations and actions to those of most humans. As God says in Conversations With God:

And so you have created in your mythology the being you call "devil." You have even imagined a God at war with this being (thinking that God solves problems the way you do).

Vengeance? Sacrifices? Forcing those who believe to repeatedly prove their faith? That's the worst of humanity, not the best of God. I think such ideas would be, at best, literally unthinkable to such a being, and, at worst, intolerable. You say eternal torture is justice. I say an infinite being is above such an act; and that IF such a being was not more about love and forgiveness than that kind of horror, it would at least reserve infinite punishment for those who commit an infinite crime/infinite crimes.

As for the clay saying it would rather be a bowl than a vase... Well, clay isn't self-aware, nor even aware, and it can't talk. But if it DID talk, I'd say, "HOLY COW!!! I'm so sorry! I had no idea you had desires. Absolutely, I'll make you into a bowl right away!!" I would not dream of forcing the clay to retain a form it did not want.

Furls, that's why I would have to disagree w/your post about who's in heaven and why.

Damn!! I was this close. *holds index finger and thumb very close together*

Thank you, Tracie. For what it's worth coming from an agnostic (I don't say "there is a creator" or "there is no creator."), you're the best Christian I've ever heard of. You and Matthew, anyway. But let's just be mad at him because he won't check out Stephen's thread. Until I learned certain ideas, and got to know you two, I literally did not know that Christianity could be a beautiful thing. I knew it could be terrible thing, and a ho-hum thing. But I didn't know I could be proud to be friends with a Christian.

[Fist and Faith]

Before I forget - yet again - this is from Dan Brown's Angels & Demons:

"Science tells me God must exist. My mind tells me I will never understand God. And my heart tells me I am not meant to."

What I mean is, I could have the feeling, but I wouldn't know I had it, how can I differentiate between the feeling of God's love and the feeling of God's hate if I don't know what either feel like? There's no book that explains "God's love feels like floating through clouds with the warm sun gently caressing your skin...". So I could be feeling God's love (or hate) right now and not know it.

Ah, I understand what you mean now. No frame of reference.

And "God's love feels like floating through clouds with the warm sun gently caressing your skin..." reminds me of the York Peppermint Patty commercials. "When I bite into a York Peppermint Patty, I get the sensation of..."

[[Syl]]

Fuel for the fire

What you have to understand, is your father was your model for God. If you're male and you're Christian and living in America, your father is your model for God. And if you never know your father, if your father bails out and dies or is never at home, what do you believe about God?
"What you end up doing is you spend your life searching for your father and God.

"What you have to consider is the possibility that God doesn't like you. Could be, God hates us. This is not the worst thing that could happen."





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How Tyler saw it was that getting God's attention for being bad was better than getting no attention at all. Maybe because God's hate is better than His indifference.
If you could be either God's worst enemy or nothing, which would you choose?

We are God's middle children, according to Tyler Durden, with no special place in history and no special attention.

Unless we get God's attention, we have no hope of damnation or redemption.

Which is worse, hell or nothing?

Only if we're caught and punished can we be saved.

[ChoChiyo]

Fuel for the fire

What you have to understand, is your father was your model for God. If you're male and you're Christian and living in America, your father is your model for God. And if you never know your father, if your father bails out and dies or is never at home, what do you believe about God?

Well, that seals my fate. My father was a crazy bastard who beat the shit out of me almost every day of my life, threw me down flights of stairs, and told me (often) that he "would not piss on [me] if was on fire."

I might as well give up and just hope for mercy when the time comes....or maybe oblivion.

[Furls Fire]

Cho, sweet mercy. No way is your "fate sealed". Hugglessssssssssssss to you, I wish I could do it in real life. How horrific. But, you HAVE to know that what your father did to you was NOT in any way your fault and you did NOT deserve such terrible things. God bless you Cho. I know you must feel abandoned by Him. "How could He have let me be born into that horror?" There is no answer. The fact you survived it and became the beautiful person you are now, tells so much about your inner strength and capacity to overcome such evils. God gave you those gifts. BIG BIG HUGGLESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS

Eric, I can see you in the light, and I can see Jesus coming up to you and saying. "Okay, what do you say now?" LOL!!! And I can hear you saying..."well, okay...so Tracie was right after all...can I come in?" hehehehe. I love you, my friend.

Cy, go read my brother's journal entries. Then come back and tell me you still disagree that he is in heaven. Jesus Himself took my brother there and spoke to him before his passing. You may not believe that. But...so be it. He's there. And so is Isaiah, and Silezia, and Lynne, and Nathan James, and you know...I even believe Harold is there. Because God's love is infinite, glorious, and as long as He dwells in your heart, you cannot and shall not be damned. THAT is my belief...and there is NO WAY anyone could EVER shake that out of me. So, don't even try.

[Furls Fire]

Oh, and I'll say this again....God, does NOT hate.

[Worm of Despite]

Fuel for the fire

What you have to understand, is your father was your model for God. If you're male and you're Christian and living in America, your father is your model for God. And if you never know your father, if your father bails out and dies or is never at home, what do you believe about God?
"What you end up doing is you spend your life searching for your father and God.

"What you have to consider is the possibility that God doesn't like you. Could be, God hates us. This is not the worst thing that could happen."





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How Tyler saw it was that getting God's attention for being bad was better than getting no attention at all. Maybe because God's hate is better than His indifference.
If you could be either God's worst enemy or nothing, which would you choose?

We are God's middle children, according to Tyler Durden, with no special place in history and no special attention.

Unless we get God's attention, we have no hope of damnation or redemption.

Which is worse, hell or nothing?

Only if we're caught and punished can we be saved.

Nice quotes. Yeah, I was raised in a pretty non-committal family; it was easy to quit religion, because nobody got me into it in the first place. Others, who were raised in a more disciplined household, usually come away with their faith intact--or they lose it, in reaction to there being too much discipline.

Technically, I was a Christian at one time, and I did believe a God existed, but none of that was reinforced--none of it was made important. For me, Sunday school was just common sense ethics with some "the road to hell is wide, the road to heaven narrow" sprinkled in. Needless to say, I was relieved when I left all that behind me, and I've never looked back.

I might become religious again one day, but, again, living in the Bible Belt really turns me off to Christianity. Eh, maybe I'll just do some meditation. Or play video games. Probably video games.

[Fist and Faith]

Eric, I can see you in the light, and I can see Jesus coming up to you and saying. "Okay, what do you say now?" LOL!!! And I can hear you saying..."well, okay...so Tracie was right after all...can I come in?" hehehehe. I love you, my friend.

Just because you were right about Kevin... But I don't have much problem with your Christianity. I don't have reason to believe it is Truth (I talk to Stephen and Isaiah sometimes, but I don't get the voices, remnants, or hands on my shoulders. heh), but if I did, I wouldn't reject it as I do most other versions.

THAT is my belief...and there is NO WAY anyone could EVER shake that out of me. So, don't even try.

Ooo, a challenge!! *rubs hands together*

I love you too.

[Furls Fire]

LOL!!! Bring it on, baby

[Avatar]

Damn, anything that I say today in this thread is probably simply going to be a repeat of Fists great posts.

Why do we not have the right to expect god to be fair? Certainly "fairness" seems to figure in the sort of behaviour he ostensibly expects from us. Why should he be above such considerations?

And as for the question of "original" sin, if that is true, then the dice are deliberately loaded from the start. We're born already on our way to hell, and the only way to avoid it is to accept god and his laws, and apparently abase ourselves before him.

Quite apart from the already dubious notion of "sin", this seems to be the height of injustice.

Furls' god is at least more acceptable to me, in so far as her god wouldn't condemn someone like Fist to hell. And that's why I think that they way that we live is more important than lip-service to some capricious god.

If I'm wrong, I'll save you a seat by the fire Fist.

What standards are we expected to hold god up to then? Have we no rights in the matter at all? Must we simply accept that god will do as he chooses, and that we are unqualified to judge it?

I can't accept that. I would expect god to meet the standards that I expect of all decent, rational and intelligent human beings. Certainly he should at least meet them, and preferably exceed them. Otherwise, what is the basis for this "superiority"?

--Avatar

[Fist and Faith]

If I'm wrong, I'll save you a seat by the fire Fist.

Sweet! Not too close though, eh? I sunburn pretty easily.

[Baradakas]

Sorry folks, I've been away for a bit.

No Fist, I am not a Jehovah's Witness, though I agree with many of thier beliefs. To answer Cho briefly, I agree that some of the Bible is metaphorical, but Revelations was not meant to be. In fact, the Bible leaves keys to unlocking it in the Old Testament. It was written by John the Beloved, in his exile on the Isle of Patmos. While there, God came to Jon and gave him visions of the end times. The reason that it seems metaphorical in nature is due to the fact that John was forced to attempt to describe visions of a technological era with no basis of reference! Therefore he describes things in terms of things he knows, (i.e. "like locusts", and "and death was in thier tails" etc.) His description of lampstands are incarnations of the Church throughout history. I could not possibly go into this with the depth necessary here, but please believe, that my belief did not come easily. I had to prove to myself, again and again, that the Bible held Truth.\

Oh, and Fist, my belief that we reign on earth and not in Heaven is stated very clearly in Revelation. God comes down from heaven, bringing a new Jeruselem, and the saints rule under Jesus on earth for a thousand years, at which time Satan must be loosed for a time....

[Cybrweez]

Furls, trust me, I'm not trying to shake you out of anything, or do any ramming. I'm just trying to explain my understanding of the Bible. I would think the definition of a Christian is one who follows Christ's teachings. As far as I know, these come from the Bible. He said He is the only way to heaven, all men come to the Father through Him. Do you believe the Bible teaches this?

[Furls Fire]

Furls, trust me, I'm not trying to shake you out of anything, or do any ramming. I'm just trying to explain my understanding of the Bible. I would think the definition of a Christian is one who follows Christ's teachings. As far as I know, these come from the Bible. He said He is the only way to heaven, all men come to the Father through Him. Do you believe the Bible teaches this?

Yes.

But, I also believe that embracing the ways of God and Jesus, well gain you entry into Heaven. Jesus is about forgiveness and mercy. Stephen said it best...from journal entry September 3rd, 2000:

I woke up to a woman setting next to my hospital bed in a wheel chair. She was bald, her eyes sunk in with darkness below them. Skin and bones, her hands shook. But she stared at me with such intensity that I had to close my eyes against it for moment.

"Is your name Stephen McKinney?" She whispered then.

I opened my eyes and said "yes". She said nothing more so I asked. "What brings you here?"

"Dreams. I was told to come to you here."

I sat up the best I could, "by who?"

Her intensity magnified then. "You know who."

I nodded then. "Yes. I know who. Tell me, what is your name?"

"Claire." She began to cry. "And I cursed Him. I cursed Him and told Him I didn't need Him. I asked Him where He was when this cancer attacked me. I asked Him why He gave this to me when I have two little ones at home and no family to look after them. I told Him I hated Him."

"And now you are afraid. Afraid you will go to hell. Afraid that He will abandon you." She nodded, and I made my way out of bed, knelt down before her and took her in my arms. "No Claire. You will not go to hell. Jesus understands our weaknesses, our anger, our grief. He knows your fear for your children, for yourself. He knows the way of your pain and suffering. He knows that when you pass, you will accept Him and let Him lead you to the Father. We all fear our pain. We all fear our weakness. But, there is no need to fear death, because it is not really death, it is the passing on from this life to life in everlasting light with the Father. As long as you hold Jesus in your heart as you pass, you will not be forsaken. For Jesus is love, forgiveness. Even those skeptical in this life of His glory, His existance, will find Him and embrace Him at the gate. For He will be all about them and they will know Him, and they will call His Name. And they will be forgiven."

.................

There is alot more to that entry. I think I will type up the whole thing and put it in his thread. I just posted here what he said about forgiveness. He states it so much better than I could. This is why I believe those who are skeptical, question His existance, question His ways, still will find peace in the Light, when they pass and see Him in all His glory. It is those that reject Him even then at that glorious moment, I believe will be cast from Him.

[jelerak]

So who's right? This to me is an important question.

The Christians have their god.

The Hindu have theirs.

The Muslims theirs.

And so on.

So whose god will ultimately be there for them when they pass to the other side? What will happen to the believers of their religion at their death if they were wrong, or worshipping the 'wrong' god?

What makes Christianity right and all others wrong?

I believe that humans are spiritual by nature. There will always be a god or gods and there will always be an afterlife to those who don't want to believe that everything ends with death.

Look at the ancient Greeks, Romans and Aztecs. They had their gods, as well. 3,000 years from now, will Christianity still be around?

Mankind will always tend to believe in a supreme being or afterlife, it is part of us.

Anyway, just my contribution to this little discussion.

And I choose not to believe in a supreme being or afterlife. Too many unanswered questions. As with UFOs, ghosts and proof of god..please show me something to make me believe otherwise. I want to believe in something, but I just need something to give me something to believe in.

[Cybrweez]

Well, Christianity already has 2,000 years, but when you consider that it really is Judaism, its got alot longer than 3,000. The Old Testament looks toward a Messiah (Christ), and Christianity is the belief that Jesus fulfilled that Messiah. The OT speaks about the Jewish nation rejecting their God, and the Gentiles receiving Him, such as in Malachi 1:11:
For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name [shall be] great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense [shall be] offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name [shall be] great among the heathen, saith the LORD of hosts.

Gentile and heathen was anyone not of the Jewish nation.

[Cybrweez]

Furls, it sounds nice, but I don't think that's what the Bible teaches. In Romans, Paul talks about 3 witnesses of God - nature, conscience and the Scriptures. You are talking about a 4th, being in Jesus' presence. I just don't see that anywhere in the Bible. Can you provide any support?

[Kymbierlee]

Sylvanus wrote:
Fuel for the fire
Chuck Palahniuk wrote:
What you have to understand, is your father was your model for God. If you're male and you're Christian and living in America, your father is your model for God. And if you never know your father, if your father bails out and dies or is never at home, what do you believe about God?

Cho wrote:

Well, that seals my fate. My father was a crazy bastard who beat the shit out of me almost every day of my life, threw me down flights of stairs, and told me (often) that he "would not piss on [me] if was on fire."

Cho- mine just took off when I was 6 weeks old. I guess I got the better end of the deal. Maybe that's why I ended up being a Goddess worshipper.......

Personally, I find Christianity to be a very hypocritical religion, and have never felt anything but confusion when I went to church, or talked to Christians when I was younger. Reading some of Furls' posts makes me realize that Christianity can be a good religion, if the right prople are representing it, but since I found my path, there could never be any turning back or changing my mind for me. The Christians I know who are on a neverending quest to save my soul have their work cut out for them.
I became Pagan (officially) about 10 years ago. I think I was Pagan my whole life, but never knew what to call the feelings and beliefs I had. I joined a Unitarian Universalist church, and belong to the earth centered group there. This church is great- you have very liberal Christians, Pagans, Muslims, Buddhists, Hebrews, you name it all worshipping together, in spite of our differences. That is how religion should be, to me.

[Avatar]

... at which time Satan must be loosed for a time....

Why? Never really understood this bit myself. God has won, imprisoned satan, there's peace and plenty, and then he lets him out again to ravage the earth until finally beating him forever?

This seems to make satan nothing but god's plaything. Simple fact is that god needs satan. The carrot and the stick or whatever analogy you want to use. He's the ultimate fall guy. According to the bible, he doesn't have a chance. Although I suppose that falls into the category of god not being fair?

I must say that I agree with Kym. Furls, and the very few people like her, do, and have done, a lot to improve my opinion of christianity. But fundamentally, it's just not something that I can accept.

Fist -- No worries. I never travel without SPF100

--Avatar

[Fist and Faith]

jelerak,
The idea I like best is that, because, to some degree, everyone is different - different wiring of the brain; different psychological strengths, weaknesses, and needs; different experiences; etc - people see different aspects of the same God. (Of course, that assumes there is a God, and that God is infinite, or at least waaaaaaaay beyond us.) God knows some people here will strongly disagree (also my brother, who was ordained as a Presbyterian pastor a few months ago), and since I'm not convinced there is any creator, I can't possibly be considered an authority on the subject, but it seems reasonable to me. How could such a being otherwise? I don't think we should limit ourselves to any particular view when we're trying to find such answers. I can't imagine going up to a Rabbi who has been the loving spiritual guide of his community for 50 years, and telling him he'll burn in Hell if he doesn't accept Jesus as his savior.

If I felt strongly enough that any God existed, and wanted to meet with other believers, I'd join Kymbierlee and the Unitarian Universalists. I went to the one near me a few times to see what it was like. Everyone was wonderful, open to other paths.

And because it's what I do, here are some quotes for you. I've posted most of them before, but not in a while.

The heritage, the philosophies, the message that came from God through Nature to the Indian people, these are the same as what Jesus Christ means to Christians. God came through Jesus Christ and his disciples to the people just as He came through His agents in Nature to the Indian people. The latter is called paganism... Yet there is no difference. It is the same God. -- Allan Wolf Leg

Wakan-Tanka taught each tribe to believe in ways that work best for them. It depended on where they lived, and the way they thought about spiritual things. ...... Once, I went to a Native American conference in Minneapolis. While I was there I visited with a medicine man from a Washington tribe. He lived two thousand miles from my country. But his God had taught his ancestors that He is the source of all power. This man was also taught that everything has a spirit. Even the rocks and plants have a spirit. And he said that many white people don't know how to see this because they have no connection with the spirit forces of Grandmother Earth. All of these are things I have been taught also. -- Fools Crow

From the earliest times, Hinduism has proclaimed one God while accommodating worship of him (or her, for to millions God is the Divine Mother) in many different names. "Truth is one," says a famous verse of the Rig Veda; "men call it by various names." A monastic devotee might find that Shiva embodies the austere detachment he seeks; a devotee who wants to live "in the world," partaking of its innocent pleasures but devoted to service of his fellow creatures, might find in Krishna the perfect incarnation of his ideals. In every case, this clothing of the Infinite in human form serves to focus a devotee's love and to provide an inspiring ideal. But whatever form is worshipped, it is only an aspect of the same one God. -- Eknath Easwaran in the introduction to his translation of the Bhagavad Gita

The Upanishads are not systematic philosophy; they are more like ecstatic slide shows of mystical experience - vivid, disjointed, stamped with the power of direct personal encounter with the divine. If they seem to embrace contradictions, that is because they do not try to smooth over the seams of these experiences. They simply set down what the rishis saw, viewing the ultimate reality from different levels of spiritual awareness, like snapshots of the same object from different angles: now seeing God as utterly transcendent, for example, now seeing God as immanent as well. These differences are not important, and the Upanishads agree on their central ideas: … -- Eknath Easwaran, in the introduction to his translation of The Upanishads

For twelve years, under the guidance of various gurus, he submitted himself to spiritual practices of assorted religious systems, including Christianity and Islam. Each direction led him to illumination, so that he could declare on the basis of personal experience that the followers of all religions alike could realize the ultimate reality if their surrender to God was sufficiently intense. -- Ramakrishna's entry in The Encyclopedia of Eastern Philosophy and Religion

There are errors about natural processes, historical inaccuracies, and contradictions galore! What I am committed to is taking the Bible seriously. Not as a basic text on physical science, biology or even history, but as the faithful attempt by many authors to tell the story of God's relationship to people. It tells me a great deal about who God is, and in the process I learn about who I am as well. -- A really cool guy I used to email with

From Conversations With God:

Neale: For instance, why is it that You do not reveal Yourself? If there really is a God, and You are It, why do You not reveal Yourself in a way we can all understand?

God: I have done so, over and over. I am doing so again right now.

Neale: No. I mean by a method of revelation that is incontrovertible; that
cannot be denied.

God: Such as?

Neale: Such as appearing right now before my eyes.

God: I am doing so right now.

Neale: Where?

God: Everywhere you look.

Neale: No, I mean in an incontrovertible way. In a way no man could deny.

God: What way would that be? In what form or shape would you have Me appear?

Neale: In a form or shape that you actually have.

God: That would be impossible, for I have no form or shape you understand. I could adopt a form or shape that you could understand, but then everyone would assume that what they have seen is the one and only form and shape of God, rather than a form or shape of God - one of many. People believe I am what they see Me as, rather than what they do not see. But I am the Great Unseen, not what I cause Myself to be in any particular moment. In a sense, I am what I am not. It is from the am-notness that I come, and to it I always return. Yet when I come in one particular form or another - a form in which I think people can understand Me - people assign Me that form forevermore. And should I come in any other form, to any other people, the first say I did not appear to the second, because I did not look to the second as I did to the first, nor say the same things - so how could it have been Me? You see, then, it matters not in what form or in what manner I reveal Myself - whatever manner I choose and whatever form I take, none will be incontrovertible.