Proof of God

[Avatar]

Perhaps not really germane to the topic at hand, but Fist's quotes called this to mind. Here is just an extract, but the whole speech speaks to me on a really fundamental level.

From Chief Seattle's address to Washington:

Every part of this Earth is Sacred to my people. Every shining pine needle, every sandstone, every mist in the dark woods, every clearing and humming insect is holy in the memory and experience of my people. The sap which courses through the trees carries memories of the Red man.

[Kymbierlee]

Fist-
Thanks for posting all of those quotes- they were great! I particularly liked these:

But whatever form is worshipped, it is only an aspect of the same one God. -- Eknath Easwaran in the introduction to his translation of the Bhagavad Gita

The heritage, the philosophies, the message that came from God through Nature to the Indian people, these are the same as what Jesus Christ means to Christians. God came through Jesus Christ and his disciples to the people just as He came through His agents in Nature to the Indian people. The latter is called paganism... Yet there is no difference. It is the same God. -- Allan Wolf Leg

We Pagans believe all gods/goddesses are one. Whatever name you call the divine doesn't matter. All paths are part of the One Path and all Gods are one God...it's just how you go about worshipping her/him/them. Christianity usually worships by shoving their beliefs down eveyone elses throats, Paganism refuses to do that. We will instruct, inform, educate, but we won't say "you're wrong", or "my way is the only way."

Atheists/agnostics out there: did a lot of you have bad experiences with religion as children that turned you off of Christianity or whatever religion you were raised in? I know I did, and called myself an agnostic for a while, until I realized there was a religion out there that fit me like a glove.

Blessed Be to you all.

Kym

[dennisrwood]

Cyberweez: maybe i'm misunderstanding here, but Jesus and God are one. Jesus isn't a seperate form of proof.

Avatar: our priest has confirmed my thoughts on Revelations, it isn't going to be understood until after it happens. we rather focus on Jesus and what He said. I have always had trouble with the Apocolyptic churches. i'd rather focus on living right.

[Avatar]

i'd rather focus on living right.

That's the way that I feel too. If living "right" isn't enough, then too bad for me.

Kym-- I once read that "The technicalities of religion have no place in the minds of god." Which relates directly to that whole "different aspects of the same thing."

I never had any "bad" religious experiences. Only my logic and my sense of fairness has interfered with my views on religion.

--Avatar

[Kymbierlee]

I never had any "bad" religious experiences. Only my logic and my sense of fairness has interfered with my views on religion.

The nice thing about Paganism is we respect your right to feel that way!

[Avatar]

I spent a good few years dabbling in different religions after I decided that christianity wasn't for me.

Paganism was about the only one that approached the way that I think, the only one that effectively allowed me to do as I believed was right, regardless of almost all other considerations.

Spent a good bit of time with Wicca actually, and still use a couple of the things I learnt through it, but eventually settled on Discordianism, effectively a pagan religion, except that its a more amusing one. It doesn't require much, and doesn't expect you to have faith, or believe in anything. Our goddess is proudly imaginary, and doesn't care who knows it.

A faith for the faithless? If you're interested, google "Principia Discordia" for a copy of our "Bible"

--Avatar

(EDIT: Oops. Didn't finish the last sentence.)

[Kymbierlee]

Faith for the faithless? If you're interested, google "Principia Discordia" for a copy of our "Bible"

I'm going to do that right now.

[Avatar]

Cool. I hope you find it interesting. I know you'll find it amusing. (love your sig BTW)

Take it easy
--Avatar

[Cybrweez]

Christianity usually worships by shoving their beliefs down eveyone elses throats, Paganism refuses to do that. We will instruct, inform, educate, but we won't say "you're wrong", or "my way is the only way."

The nice thing about Paganism is we respect your right to feel that way!

Let's say your first statement (which is such a blatant stereotype, if the group was not christians but some minority, you'd be accused of racism or bigotry), is true. According to your second statement, your religion respects that belief. So what's the problem? It reminds me of the liberal's idea of tolerance - as long as what you believe doesn't bother me, I'll be tolerant. But if what you believe offends me, than I don't have to be tolerant.

Also a little like - there is no absolute truth. Except for that one.

[jelerak]

Kym...in response to what 'turned' me off of Christianity, well, I went to a Baptist high school for 4 years, and was basically force fed to me what was right and what was wrong. I was pretty much brain washed like they wanted, but when I graduated, I came to my senses and started thinking for myself. I realized that things just didn't add up like the way I was told to believe.

Then there is the fact of what is going on with the molestations in the Catholic church. This was even going on back 20 or so years ago. What kind of god would let his discipiles do that to children?

And then there are situations like September 11, 2001. Where was the innocent's victims god when the planes hit the two towers? Their were children that died in that attack. Why cut their life short? Why would a kind, merciful caring supreme being subject his people to that?

People put so much into their faith, and what is the return? Where is your god when you need him most?

That is what turned me off of Christianity and made me start believing that the only being that is going to take care of me & my family is going to be myself.

[[Syl]]

Nothing turned me off Christianity either. Growing up Mormon, most of my friends weren't. And when you lived out in the country, you pretty much take any social opportunity that presents itself. So I frequently found myself at Evangelical, Baptist, and even Jehova's Witness churches on Sundays. The one exception being Catholic, which I tried once in Boot Camp but turned out to be the only congregation that wasn't interested in some outsider wanting to know what everything was all about... kind of like asking die-hard fans about various rules during the Super Bowl. One guy even got mad at me when I asked him, "What am I supposed to do with this [communion wafer]?" I mean, nobody gets mad at you if you take sacrament anywhere else. None of it made any more sense than mormonism, and I was pretty sure that was hokey.

Cybr, you remind me of someone. Kym did say "most," not "all." She was just talking about her religion. As most religions diametrically oppose eachother, the conflicts were not intended as slander. Perhaps the 'shoveling down throats' bit was slightly inflammatory, but it is factually correct. It's a requirement of Christianity to proselytize, is it not? True, some sects are more vocal than others, but the only ones I can think of that come close are Hari Krishnas.

[dennisrwood]

jelerak:
God doesn't 'allow' people to commit evil acts. people choose to do that. free will.

[jelerak]

What about the free will of the innocent people affected?

Where is their protection from their god? Shouldn't they have a right of choice not to be murdered, tortured, raped or molested?

[Nathan]

it's free will from God, not free will to not be affected by the actions of other humans.

[dennisrwood]

well maybe we should be pro-active and not stand by with our hands in our pockets? in over two thousand years we've arrived here. seems turning our backs on God hasn't really worked out, eh?
we could change the world, we simply don't.

[Cybrweez]

Perhaps the 'shoveling down throats' bit was slightly inflammatory, but it is factually correct. It's a requirement of Christianity to proselytize, is it not? True, some sects are more vocal than others, but the only ones I can think of that come close are Hari Krishnas.

What is factually correct, that Christians shovel their beliefs down others' throats? Or that the great comission is to spread the gospel? I think people's definition of shoveling is just when they don't like what they're hearing, then its shoveling. If those same people you think are shoveling something down your throats were talking about how to be rich, you wouldn't mind at all. In most cases, its not how the message is presented, but what that message is.

BTW, I think alot of people are confused about what a Christian is. There is a difference b/w saying you're a Christian, and actually being one. Its a worldview, its a life changing belief. Especially in America, the majority would say they are a Christian. Then ask them what the 4 gospels are, and they wouldn't know. This country has been a Christian nation for most of its existence, but is no more. But b/c of that foundation, most people just assume they are Christian, yet they don't even know anything about the Bible. You are not a Christian b/c your parents are, or b/c you go to church, or b/c you voted for Bush. You're a Christian b/c of what you believe, and as James says, faith w/o works is dead.

[[Syl]]

I think people's definition of shoveling is just when they don't like what they're hearing, then its shoveling. If those same people you think are shoveling something down your throats were talking about how to be rich, you wouldn't mind at all. In most cases, its not how the message is presented, but what that message is.

Hardly. If someone came to my house to tell me how to get rich, he'd get a polite "thanks, but no thanks," and a door in his face. Just like door-to-door salesmen (no I don't really need $40 of meat), just like the people from the church down the street that come by every so often. I spend just as little time watching the "make millions of dollars starting today" infomercials as I do the 500 Club. None. Even if being rich or saving my immortal soul were my number one priority, I just don't believe the messengers can deliver. The holier-than-thou bit definately doesn't convince me.

"Yes, folks, my book will tell you secrets that even Harvard MBAs don't know. It's guaranteed. My method is proven and it works. Just listen to these success stories... call now with your credit card." Nope.

[Cail]

Here's a hypothetical question for everyone, but especially Cho, Syl, and the rest that don't believe in God....

Christians believe that Christ is going to return at some point, and we live our lives in expectation for that. You folks don't (and that's OK as far as I'm concerned, live and let live and all that). Let's say He shows up tomorrow...What's your reaction?

And a more general what if...If Christ showed up tomorrow, do you think anyone would actually recognize Him? Or would he be thrown in an institution? This is not meant to be sarcastic at all, seriously, I think there's a pretty good chance that when He returns, there's going to be a problem with people taking Him seriously.

[jelerak]

I don't think that there will be a problem in people taking him seriously. Unless he tries to authenticate his identity through words and sermons. Haven't we seen that enough???

Just show a few miracles...that would be sufficient authentication.

[Cail]

I don't think that there will be a problem in people taking him seriously. Unless he tries to authenticate his identity through words and sermons. Haven't we seen that enough???

Just show a few miracles...that would be sufficient authentication.

But that's not what He was about, was it? Granted, he performed several miracles, but it was His words and sermons that made him Him.