Did Saddith deserve what she got?

[matrixman]

Good point, Myste. I agree.

Within the context of the story, I might grudgingly accept the "poetic justice" meted out to Saddith. But outside of that, in more absolute terms, I certainly don't think a woman--"slut" or otherwise-- deserves to be beaten, let alone be beaten to within an inch of her life.

Sure, Saddith is wrong to manipulate people, but I would have exacted a less brutal form of justice to punish her.

[Stead]

Of course, I don't think that real people deserve to be beaten to a pulp for their actions. And I don't think it would have happened to Saddith is Joyse hadn't imposed anarchy on his Rule of Law.

But without Law, as we see, things revert to pre-historic standards. Large men did what they wanted with smaller women because they could.

Like Eremis did what he was doing 'because he could', and Saddith did what she did 'because she could.

In anarchy, the rule of law and judgement is in the eye of the beholder.

In some ways it's a paradox, because one one hand, people like Myst are uplifted for the philosophy of "problems are best solved by those who see them." But Lebbick also made his own judgement on Saddith, and he 'solved' the problem he saw, but instead was near crushed under the consequence. In the absence of real justice and law, he did what any "cave-man" would have done.

But I wouldn't call her a 'slut." Or even a "whore." A slut gives sex for attention, for an unspoken need for love. A whore gives sex as an even trade for payment-- a whore is honest.

Saddith was a succubus. She dished out her favors in a calculated fashion with the specific intent to crush the pther person as soon as she found the next rung on the ladder to latch on to.

As far as making a moral judgement from the outside, I would say (in a few ways)Saddith was a copy of Eremis, with beauty and sex as a weapon instead of cunning and malice.

She did the same things for the exact same reasons,--because she desired power, and because she could.

Of course, she didn't hurl otherworldly monsters onto the populace, but what she did to mens' hearts was paralell to the imagery monsters' damage to Mordant.

She still manipulated people for her goals, willingly and arrogantly played power games with their love, used others' love as stepping stones-- and bragged about it.

And she offered to bring Terisa into her lifestyle, her ways, which might have been the worst thing.

Compare her to Elega, who did almost the exact same sex-power game with Prince Kragen, and you can see the fundamental difference. Elega, in heart, was treaching for a purpose larger than herself. She was saving the whole kingdom, and whoring in the honest fashion with Kragen. But Saddith thought of nothing but elevating her own status.

She was a more realistic,--more human-- version of Eremis in a poetic sense.

[Myste]

Stead--:goodpost:

That almost makes me think we should start another thread--"Could there be a Just punishment for Saddith that didn't involve Lebbick beating her nearly to death?" Maybe that sounds a little flippant, but I'd like to inspire people to be creative.

Following the theory--and the narrative structure--that the punishment must fit the crime, and assuming for the sake of the exercise that Saddith did, in fact deserve punishment of some kind, is there another way SRD could have punished this particular villain without it being a beating? What would it be?

The difficulty, as I see it (and to answer my own question, which I know is slightly obnoxious), is that Saddith's beating affects Lebbick as much as it affects Saddith. I mean, think about the squalor that Artagel finds Lebbick living in; think about the hatred that the people he never stops protecting bear him. Maybe Lebbick--narratively speaking--has to beat Saddith nearly to death, in order to keep the plot moving.

I guess in that case, any alteration in what happens to Saddith also has to alter what happens to Lebbick, so that he can be in a position to fulfil his narrative purpose later in the story.

[Stead]

That's a good point, too

I think the theory I'm operating on is that without Law, the punishment is tragic, but even within Law the punishment must still be fitting.

If there had been justice, or if lebbick had stayed his hand until Law returned, her punishment would still have had to been something similar. Not necessarily a beating, but something to remove her power to prey on men's weakness.

But I can't think of anything which doesn't remind me of a 'scarlet letter'.

Possibly she deserved to fall in love -- to be made to overcome her evil ways by actually feeling something for somebody. To become more like Quiss.

But it still has a sexist feel to it. Quiss was strong, the strongest woman in the story, but to someone with Saddith's mindset, she would have appeared weak.

hmmmmmmmm (goes off sctatching chin in thought)

Stead--:goodpost:

That almost makes me think we should start another thread--"Could there be a Just punishment for Saddith that didn't involve Lebbick beating her nearly to death?" Maybe that sounds a little flippant, but I'd like to inspire people to be creative.

Following the theory--and the narrative structure--that the punishment must fit the crime, and assuming for the sake of the exercise that Saddith did, in fact deserve punishment of some kind, is there another way SRD could have punished this particular villain without it being a beating? What would it be?

The difficulty, as I see it (and to answer my own question, which I know is slightly obnoxious), is that Saddith's beating affects Lebbick as much as it affects Saddith. I mean, think about the squalor that Artagel finds Lebbick living in; think about the hatred that the people he never stops protecting bear him. Maybe Lebbick--narratively speaking--has to beat Saddith nearly to death, in order to keep the plot moving.

I guess in that case, any alteration in what happens to Saddith also has to alter what happens to Lebbick, so that he can be in a position to fulfil his narrative purpose later in the story.

[danlo]

Quiss was strong, the strongest woman in the story

Look, just cause she's your sister in law I understand you're biased (But I see what you're trying to say.) For my money Elega is the strongest woman, but then again Myste had particular strenghts too...

[matrixman]

Saddith was a succubus. She dished out her favors in a calculated fashion with the specific intent to crush the other person as soon as she found the next rung on the ladder to latch on to.

Yes, well, Lebbick took care of that, eh? He ended up doing the crushing. Crunch, crack...there goes her jawbone.

Saddith is a succubus now? Well, I don't see her character in quite the way you do, but you've argued your case very well, Stead. I wish I could mount a defense worthy of Saddith, but I lack the debating prowess of someone like Myste or Avatar, so I'll spare myself from looking like a fool.

Again, I very, very grudgingly accept that Saddith may have deserved the punishment dealt to her as a form of poetic justice within the context of the needs of the story. (Silently shakes his head...)

[Stead]

Well, Saddith did have her good points, too.

She, along with Argus, Ribuld, etc.. was one of Terisa and Geraden's friends and as long as you were in no real position of power, she had no ulterior motives against you, and treated you like a buddy.

Also, along with the rest of Geraden's friends, Saddith was THE touchstone for the first book. She was always a relieving presence early on, and she also added a nice touch of humor and 'good nature' to the mix.

Maybe succubus was a little hard, but she was calculating, and did what she did for her own reasons. Maybe: "a good natured aspiring succubus who just got in over her head, and was punished fittingly, buy unjustly, due to the chaos and anarchy the King's plan caused?"

Anyway, I didn't mean to say I didn't like Saddith, sha had a wonderful, reassuring presence, (that is, until Terisa cought her and Eremis together)



And for strength, it's a tough call for me.

There are what? 5 possible female role models for Terisa to weigh?

Elega, Myste, Torrent, Saddith, and Quiss?

(I've got to be forgetting someone, see? I forgot Torrent.)

I could see how Elega is stronger than Quiss.

Quiss didn't have anywhere near the burdens the Daughters had, she was more of a 'charicture' (?) of strength (I'm sure there's a word for it for the more-vocabulary-inclined)

ha, there's a term paper for someone. a nice comparison piece.

[Myste]

I smell a poll coming on!

[The Dreaming]

Really, I don't see how Saddith was doing that much harm before Eremis began using her. Sure, she used sex as a tool to increase her social status, but how is this more wrong than being a cutthroat businessman, driven to succeed and raise himself up? Society allowed her a method to better herself, and she took it. She just didn't realize who Eremis really was, and how could she?

Also, you can't really assign blame to Saddith for things she didn't even do during the time frame the book takes place in. All we know about Saddith's climbing of the social ladder is what she tells us about it. Did she truly manipulate these men and break their hearts? Or was she just loose and willing to accept gifts? We don't know.

Eremis shaped her into what she became. Hell, even showing up in Lebbick's bed was an act of kindness in her mind. She had no way of knowing just how far over the edge he was. He also can't (and didn't mind you) truly blame her for what she became.

In other words, it was Eremis from the start. He was just using her, as he used most of the people in the story at some point. Holding Saddith accountable for his manipulation would be the same as trying to hold Terisa accountable for her actions while she was under his spell. Hell, Eremis had all of Orison under his spell at some point, everyone except Lebbick, Artagal and for the most part Gereden.

[duchess of malfi]

I agree in that we don't really have enough of Saddith's backstory to know whether her relationships with previous men were straightforward sex for better jobs transactions, or where she used the men and broke their hearts. I have always thought it was the former, but either view is equally valid without the backstory.

I still believe that she met a master manipulator and schemer in Eremis, and never had a chance once they hooked up.

[variol son]

Saddith was just ignorant is all. Unfortunately for her, SRD has never felt that that is a good enough excuse to protect you from those who would use you and then cast you aside.

Sum sui generis
Vs

[Avatar]

Saddith was just ignorant is all. Unfortunately for her, SRD has never felt that that is a good enough excuse to protect you from those who would use you and then cast you aside...

Just as it is, unfortunately, in real life. Ignorance can never protect you in the long run. In the short term, all it achieves is to reduce the number of things to worry about.

Better knowledge by far. It may hurt more, but it's worth it at the end.

--Avatar

[Myste]

Really, I don't see how Saddith was doing that much harm before Eremis began using her. Sure, she used sex as a tool to increase her social status, but how is this more wrong than being a cutthroat businessman, driven to succeed and raise himself up? Society allowed her a method to better herself, and she took it. She just didn't realize who Eremis really was, and how could she?

This is a good point. I don't interpret her actions prior to the story (such as we know of them) as especially harmful. But they do indicate a strong sense of ambition. Saddith has a very particular kind of power, and she uses it. There's nothing especially wrong with that, either.

And she did get in over her head when she started her affair with Eremis, and it's clearly because she didn't see what he truly was. But the fact is that the ways in which she manifested her ambition led directly to her vulnerability to Eremis's specific type of manipulation--a very Despiser-like manipulation, and one which generally causes you to be abjectly defeated by your own strengths.

Eremis shaped her into what she became. Hell, even showing up in Lebbick's bed was an act of kindness in her mind. She had no way of knowing just how far over the edge he was. He also can't (and didn't mind you) truly blame her for what she became.

This I don't agree with. The whole point of Despite is that it turns you against yourself. It takes what and who you really are, and uses the things that are most intrinsic to your personality to destroy you: Saddith's ambition and sensuality; Covenant's stubbornness and guilt. And Eremis is certainly a Despiser.

In other words, I think Saddith is to blame for her actions. I don't believe she's as much to blame as Eremis--Saddith didn't think about the ramifications of her behavior, and Eremis did. But nobody forced her against her will to betray Terisa or show up in Lebbick's bed; her own ambitions blinded her to the implications of what Eremis asked her to do. She didn't consider implications because she was too busy (as she thought) wrapping Eremis around her little finger. For disregarding the ramifications of her actions, she is entirely to blame.

She might not be a match for Eremis, but she's not stupid.

[Eisande]

What a very interesting thread! I have not read these books since..oh 1989 or so, but I always had a thing for Saddith..and continue to use her name in various places.
One thing, how do you pronounce her name? I have allways thought of it as Sah Deeth .
I looked all over the forums but could not find a suggestion. Thanks if anyone can point me to a thread on the subject.
Oh, and I don't think she deserved the injuries she received, but I think that is part of the tragedy of "saddith" which makes her such an indelible character in my mind.

[Myste]

Welcome to the Watch, Eisande! You should join us in Casting the Augury for the Mordant's Need group reads!

I also hear her name in my head as "SAD-ith," but that's just me.

[Gart]

Saddith used her sexuality to secure advancement. Nothing wrong with that per se, and as has been said by others this is little different to what often happens in RL. Her mistake was in assuming that everyone else treated intimacy as a commodity; in broader terms, she was lacking in empathy and this cost her very dearly.

Did she deserve what she got? No. There was no actual malice in her actions, and not even her level of tactlessness merits being beaten nearly to death.

On the other hand, if the Castellan had booted her out of his chambers, so that she had to walk back to her rooms naked, with consequent embarrassment, then that'd've been fair enough. But Lebbick never was one for measuring his responses.

[Revan]

Lebbick was a git. And a lot of people don't seem to realize that... because he has reasons for being a git... heh... just like saddith had reasons for beings the way she was...

On the other hand... why did Saddith try and seduce Geraden? Why Terisa was right next to her in bed... I mean I don't doubt Saddith would have had sex with him right then and there if Geraden was up for it...

[Myste]

Maybe Eremis put her up to it?

[LordSlaytan]

What would it be like to live in a world where women have absolutely no power? Not even power to govern themselves? How would a woman, who wants more for herself than to be a mans concubine, seamstress, or cook, go about gaining said power? With her feminine wiles, of course. I, for one, cannot blame Saddith at all for her desire to gain independence in the only feasible way allotted to her. Her real problem, however, to the mentality of our enlightened minds, is that she is so completely self-absorbed. We, as a modern society, want to see her as a heroin; using her wits and her body in an effort to gain power so that she could do well for her fellow women. Yet, she had no desire at all to do that. She wanted to lay her way to the top so she could have control over her own destiny, and the destiny of men. She wasn’t thinking about anyone other than herself the whole time, though she did have compassion for other women…just no time for them. Does that make her bad or just self-centered? Does that make her wicked or vengeful?

I liked Saddith. She was a woman who was smart. She knew what she wanted and how to go about getting it. Her only real crime was her naïve belief of her superiority of mind. She never had any ambition to betray Mordant. She never had any ambition to betray her King. It was never told, that I can remember anyway, if Eremis actually promised her anything at all. He was certainly the journeyman to her apprentice when it came to the art of manipulation…and she paid dearly for her foolishness. If, at any time, it was let on that she wanted to betray Theresa due to her own insecurity, envy, or outright jealousy, then she could be considered ‘bad’, but it seemed to me that she liked Theresa and had no idea that she had betrayed her.

I felt bad for her when Eremis cast his last die concerning her. It was a wicked plot; deviously, and masterfully played. She never stood a chance. I see her a victim of her own unhappiness, and because of that, I feel that “Saddith only pawn in game of life.”




As far as Saddith trying to seduce Geraden...I think it was just an ego thing. She had often mentioned that Theresa was enormously beautiful. Perhaps it was a way for her to say to herself, “Yep. I still got it.”

[Avatar]

A good point, and an interesting question. Certainly, she seemed completely selfish, but as you suggest, I don't really think that there was any malice intended.

As you say, how else could she gain anything? Especially in a culture where women were not generally expected to be even equal to, let alone superior to, men.

Of course, there are plenty of strong women in Mordant as well, but then, they seem to have the advantage of noble birth.

--Avatar