Covenants life pre summoning,and the history of The Land

[Sunbaneglasses]

I just want to get this disscussion started befor I come back and put my 2 WGD's in.I have an outline in my head of the relationship of events in chapters 1 and 2 of LFB,to Atiaran's story of the Legend of Berek Halfhand in chapt 6.If so gracious would you pipe in with some of your comparisons while I get my theory into a presentable form?The ancient history of the Land(pre Old Lords)to Bereks victory on out to the ritual of Desicration-compared to the recent events in Covenants life pre summoning.WARNING!I have picked this to death!

[Gart]

One thing I've noticed about TC is that he's completely disconnected from his past. All we really know is that he started writing at about the time that he met Joan; it's difficult to correlate but probably a couple of years before the onset of his leprosy..which would be about 700 years in the Land and therefore when the Old Lords were about.
I have wondered about this before...people shun TC because he's a leper, that's how the books are set up, but still, are both his parents dead at age 30? Did he have no siblings? Or even friends, in his pre-leprous days?

[dlbpharmd]

One must remember that when Joan took Roger and left Covenant, he was isolated from the outside world. The fact that he has no family completes that isolation.

[BraulioB]

Maybe TC's leprosy began at the same time that Kevin and Foul were doing the Ritual of Desecration?

B

[dlbpharmd]

I tend to think so.

[Alynna Lis Eachann]

Wow. That's pretty striking, symbolically speaking. Was it intentional, do you think?

It's entirely possible to have lost one's parents young, of course, and I tend to think, too, that something like this happened to TC's friends: some left him of their own volition, scared and/or disgusted. Others he pushed away; he is quite the stubborn bastard, of course, so it's likely that he could have pushed away even the most ardent, faithful friend. Too, remember that he considers his pre-leprosy work and self to have been shallow... he may not have been able to distinguish true friends from false, and was never able to find someone true enough to stick with him through the worst.

In short, his isolation is very plausible.

[dlbpharmd]

When I asked SRD about this in the GI last year, he said he'd never thought about it that way but that it was very obvious.

[High Lord Tolkien]

When I asked SRD about this in the GI last year, he said he'd never thought about it that way but that it was very obvious.

I read that question, good one by the way, but I thought his answer of "I never thought about it like that" (my quotes) means that there is *no* correlation between the two.
That it was just dumb luck.

You wouldn't happen to have the awswer handy enough to post it do you?
I must have missed something.
TIA!

[dlbpharmd]

Here ya go!

Don (dlbpharmd): Mr. Donaldson, as many have said above, thank you for writing my all-time favorite story, and thank you for continuing that story. I'm on the edge of my seat waiting for Runes to be published!

It seems, particularly in the 1st Chronicles, that so much of what is happening to Covenant physically is mirrored in the Land. For example, when his leprosy is at its worst, the Land is suffering under Foul's winter. My question: Is there any correlation between the onset of Covenant's leprosy and the enacting of the Ritual of Desecration?

When I planned the first "Chronicles," the relationship between Covenant's leprosy and the Land's plight was foremost in my mind. In fact, I designed the Land as a reverse reflection of Covenant's dilemma; and as the story progressed I consciously brought those two opposing images closer together until they were virtually superimposed.

However, the specific detail that you're asking about never actually crossed my mind. It's embarrassing, really, since it seems so obvious now that you raise it. But I didn't think of it for the same reason that I can't write prequels: as I suggested in an earlier answer, all of my attention is focused *forward*, on the ending. So I set up my reflections and then pursued their implications. I never asked myself about the implications of what might have happened *before* my starting point.

Everything that I've ever created about "the past" in any of my stories is there because it helps me get where I'm going: it doesn't exist for its own sake. In this important sense, if in no other, the Land is less "real" than, say, Middle Earth. Its history does not exist independent of "current events."

(04/13/2004)

[High Lord Tolkien]

Here ya go!

Don (dlbpharmd):
It seems, particularly in the 1st Chronicles, that so much of what is happening to Covenant physically is mirrored in the Land. For example, when his leprosy is at its worst, the Land is suffering under Foul's winter. My question: Is there any correlation between the onset of Covenant's leprosy and the enacting of the Ritual of Desecration?

When I planned the first "Chronicles," the relationship between Covenant's leprosy and the Land's plight was foremost in my mind. In fact, I designed the Land as a reverse reflection of Covenant's dilemma; and as the story progressed I consciously brought those two opposing images closer together until they were virtually superimposed.

However, the specific detail that you're asking about never actually crossed my mind. It's embarrassing, really, since it seems so obvious now that you raise it. But I didn't think of it for the same reason that I can't write prequels: as I suggested in an earlier answer, all of my attention is focused *forward*, on the ending. So I set up my reflections and then pursued their implications. I never asked myself about the implications of what might have happened *before* my starting point.

I still don't see it.
He set the Land up in the 1st Chron to be the polar opposite of what TC was physically going through in "reality" to show the differences between Health vs. Sickness.
But he said that the specific example you used, the RD, never crossed his mind.

So I read that as: he used it to illustrate or compare and contrast a point but not to draw historical parallels of the Land to TC's physical history.
He wasn't writing with any past history in mind.
But after the fact when he was done writing it came out to *look* like that was the plan.

I hope I'm wrong.
I came up with the Ritual/Leprosy time parallels as a teenager and I was pretty proud of myself for doing so.
But the quote you posted tells me that it was a coincidence, nothing more.

Any thoughts?

[Alynna Lis Eachann]

I could be persuaded to believe it might be a subconscious thing. Anyone who can create a story as complicated as TCTC is bound to have their brain working overtime in the back room, filling in the blanks.

And even if it's a coincidence, then it's right powerful symbolism all the same.

[Gart]

I tend to think, too, that something like this happened to TC's friends: some left him of their own volition, scared and/or disgusted. Others he pushed away; he is quite the stubborn bastard, of course, so it's likely that he could have pushed away even the most ardent, faithful friend.

I really like the idea that TC's isolation is at least partly self induced . I'd never thought of that but it chimes a lot with situations I've seen in life...and it does neatly explain it.

[Revenant]

I remember the first time after I read TCTC, it seemed to me a very plausible theory that there was a link between the Ritual of Desecration and Thomas Covenant burning his best-seller book and new novel (after coming back from leprosarium). One destruction reflecting the other.
And other such details (I was seeing TC's leprosy as a reflection of the Lord Foul coming among the Lords).

This faded with the reading of the Second Chronicles. And was completely killed off when I read the above gradual interview.
Lot's of other little personal theories fell off...

Too bad. Life goes on.

(So, when I get to read Runes -- waiting for paperback, or second-hand -- I'll tend to not try to theorize too much.)

[drew]

Another coincidence between TC's leprocy, and the ROD, is his time in the Leoprosarium, that coincides with the time people were away from the Land...then he moved back home, and people moved back to the Land, and they learned to cope, as he did.

Coincidence...?

[dlbpharmd]

Here's how I interpret SRD answer - if he had thought of the correlation at the time, he would have included it. He says as much by saying that he's embarrassed that he did not think of it before.

Now, this is not to say that he erred as an author - but I think that if he had it to do over, he would have made the correlation more clear, IMHO.

We talked about this when I first joined KW - in fact, I think my first post included this question. Someone (Fist or Furlsy?) wrote a scholarly reply that traced the timeline of Covenant's life pre-1st Chronicles in relation to the history of the Land (as we knew it then.) I wish I knew in what thread that post was. As it turns out, the timeline does not support the theory that Covenant's leprosy and the RoD are linked.

Another coincidence between TC's leprocy, and the ROD, is his time in the Leoprosarium, that coincides with the time people were away from the Land...then he moved back home, and people moved back to the Land, and they learned to cope, as he did.

Drew, I really like this idea!

[Revenant]

Someone (Fist or Furlsy?) wrote a scholarly reply that traced the timeline of Covenant's life pre-1st Chronicles in relation to the history of the Land (as we knew it then.) I wish I knew in what thread that post was. As it turns out, the timeline does not support the theory that Covenant's leprosy and the RoD are linked.

You are surely referring to the thread Was Covenant older than The Land? for the timeline.

Another related shorter thread is The cause of Covenants leprosy.





Heartcoal also did a smaller timeline on the old board.

[Sunbaneglasses]

I think that the time in The Land-the period of time where The Land was ruled in peace by a King and Queen,when the Viles and cavewights were benevolent represents TC's life pre leprosy.The conflict-seperation of the King and Queen and the devistating war that ensued represent the period of time of the Onset of his symptoms,and his seperation from Joan.In comes Berek-The part of Covenant that drives him to preserve his life.Maimed in the same way as Covenant,all his comrads perish in battle(representing Covenants isolation)He flees-The scene on mount thunder I think is directly linked to the scene in the leprosarium where Covenant vomits at the sight/stench of the old Leper and decides to live.Law and Lore.The grey shadow that he fleas is self loathing and despair.The staff of law I believe represents Covenants determination to follow his regimine of VSE's medication the way he arranges his house etc.Law is of course his regimine, the things he must do to preserve his health if he breaks his regemin,it could cause damage to himself.Lore-the VSE's medication etc,the knowledge he has aquired to protect himself.I think the Land represents Covenants body,and various figures The Creator,Foul,Berek etc represent various parts of Covenants mind.The sarangrave and the destruction of the Forest represent the damage done to Covenants body by his Leprosy,the lurker of the Sarangrave,represents the leprosy itself-as do the Ravers,and possible The Worm at the Worlds End.I also find it interesting that Covenant spent 7 months at the leprosarium and there are 7 wards of Kevins Lore.And the burning of the manuscript,definately symbolic of the ritual of Desicration.Destruction enacted in the hope of an ultimate preservation. More on this later gotta go eat.

[Kevin son of Ireland]

I have to admit that i was sceptical before about all this correlation between TCs time in the "real" world and The Land, but after reading these posts and especially this last one ....... come on SD this had to be AT LEAST a subconcious thing. Very insightful "Sunbaneglasses" (could change that name though, LOL)

[Avatar]

Interesting indeed. Good post Sunbaneglasses. Especially like the bit about all Berek's comrades perishing in battle--Covenant's isolation.

--Avatar

[dlbpharmd]

Yes, very good work, Sunbaneglasses - although to me the timeline breaks down with your theory as well as mine.