The Elohim's opposition to Vain's purpose?

[Borillar]

In the "What Has Gone Before" for Runes (don't worry, this isn't a Runes spoiler), it says that the reason the Elohim silenced Covenant was only ostensibly to protect the Earth from his power, while the real reason is opposition to Vain's purpose, and that Findail was Appointed to "ensure that Vain's purpose fails". But why would the Elohim be opposed to Vain's purpose? I mean, I can imagine why Findail is opposed to it, but if the rest of the Elohim know the purpose, I would imagine they'd be in favor of it. After all, they did appoint Findail in furtherance of it (as a backup plan).

It's confusing because this particular "What Has Gone Before" was supposedly written by SRD himself, as opposed to earlier ones that were written by someone else.

[kevinswatch]

I always thought it was because they were simply just jerks.-jay

[Avatar]

On the topic of "What has gone before", I'm glad that SRD wrote this one himself. I know that in my copy of, (I think) either TWL or TOT, there are some serious mistakes in it. Whoever wrote it obviuosly didn't actually read the books.

I'm pretty sure that there is an excellent thread in here somewhere about why the Elohim opposed Vain, perhaps somebody can recall it's title?

--A

[wayfriend]

Something is weird, I agree.

I think that this has to be one of the many mistakes that, alas, Donaldson has admitted to making in Runes. (It's been so darn long, after all).

Nowhere in the First or Second Chronicles does Donaldson admit that the Elohim silenced Covenant in order to prevent Vain's purpose. It's plausible, but it was never put into ink. (I added this to the list compiled in SRD Needs Your Help!. Who knows, the paperback may be corrected.)

The question in my mind is, which is the mistake? That the Elohim tried to prevent Vain's purpose? Or that the author revealed something meant to remain a mystery?

As to why the Elohim would do such a thing - that's an opinion question. My belief is that the Elohim saw one path to salvation, the Dead and the ur-viles another. The Elohim would occasionally try to trip up the Dead's plan for the sake of the promoting the their own, although they could not seem to countenance totally eliminating it. Unknown to them, whatever they did merely seemed to be in the end part of the Dead's plan.

[Borillar]

On the subject of possible Runes mistakes, I took a peek at the "help SRD!" thread that's now closed, and one thing I didn't see on it is an oddity on page 83. At this point, Linden's being translated to the Land and is seeing things from Joan's perspective. It says:

"Another blow reached Linden. Again she rocked with the impact, and found herself stretched out in a bed in Berenford Memorial, her arms tied to the rails. At the same time, she sat beside herself, wearing a doctor's white coat and a plain skirt. In scorn, her external self snorted, Of course you can bear it. That's what you do."

But the person who says this line about "bearing it" is Roger, not Linden. Isn't the "external self" Linden?

[Aleksandr]

But why would the Elohim be opposed to Vain's purpose? I mean, I can imagine why Findail is opposed to it, but if the rest of the Elohim know the purpose, I would imagine they'd be in favor of it. After all, they did appoint Findail in furtherance of it (as a backup plan).

I think we may get something more on this in the books to come. Back when I read WGW I noticed a strange shift in Findail’s attitude. All through TOT he (like the other Elohim) seems to think that Linden should have the Ring (If he can’t get it for himself). But why? After all, Linden getting the Ring means that Vain will seek to fulfill his purpose and Findail will be forced into the merger. But in WGW he no longer is quite so happy with the idea of Linden as Ringwielder and at the Banefire he tells her “I do not desire your death though I might be spared much thereby”.
I’m guessing that the new Staff isn’t quite right. Not that it’s evil—Linden would have known that. But in some way a 2nd Staff of Law creates a set of problems for the Earthpower we haven’t really understood yet—and after all, Berek set a guardian at the Tree to prevent a second staff from being made, fact that briefly gives TC and Linden pause when Findail explains that much to them early in WGW.
So the upshot is: Findail and the Elohim don’t want the new Staff to be made for reasons that are not purely selfish but which they have refused to explain. What they really want is the Ring for themselves, and only out of necessity do they (barely) tolerate the Ur-Viles’ purpose for Vain since they do acknowledge that the Sunbane must be overcome.

[dlbpharmd]

But in some way a 2nd Staff of Law creates a set of problems for the Earthpower we haven’t really understood yet—and after all, Berek set a guardian at the Tree to prevent a second staff from being made, fact that briefly gives TC and Linden pause when Findail explains that much to them early in WGW.

That's a very interesting thought!

[amanibhavam]

I seem to recall SRD mentioning in the GI that he hasn't written the What has gone before chapter for Runes.

[drew]

I guess that the Elohim thought, that without Vain, there would be no need for Findails appointance..kind of like if those fires up north just went out on their own, then Kas could have stayed on Elemsendine.

I think Jay summed it up though...

I always thought it was because they were simply just jerks.-jay

[MrKABC]

I think we may get something more on this in the books to come. Back when I read WGW I noticed a strange shift in Findail’s attitude. All through TOT he (like the other Elohim) seems to think that Linden should have the Ring (If he can’t get it for himself). But why?

One answer I can think of is that Linden was weak and spineless before the incident at the One Tree. Maybe the Elohim thought that if Linden had possession of the ring, she could be convinced to give it up, since she did not yet believe in evil.

[balon!]

Assuming that the Elohim had varying degrees of power amongst themselves, perhaps Findail's higher ups knew

Spoiler

that in the end he would become part of the staff of law and sent him to complete the staff and save the Land.

[Borillar]

I seem to recall SRD mentioning in the GI that he hasn't written the What has gone before chapter for Runes.

Actually, he did. From the GI: "About WHGB, here's a key fact you may not know: I never wrote them. Not for 'The Illearth War,' not for any of Covenants 2-6. I refused because I truly do hate doing such writing. So Lester del Rey wrote WHGB for 2-4, and then my next editor, Risa Kessler, wrote 5-6. Sadly, I *have* written the WHGB for Covenant 7, and will probably be forced to continue for the rest of 'The Last Chronicles.' When you see the WHGB in Runes,' the differences between how I do these things and how Lester and Risa did them will be immediately obvious."

[dlbpharmd]

I prefer SRD's WHGB.

[caamora]

Yeah, I have never really understood WHY the Elohim were so opposed to Vain. Did they think that Linden did not NEED the staff to heal the Land? Why did they ignore him when they first got to Elmensedene? And why did they try to keep him there?

[wayfriend]

That question could comprise a whole forum in its own right.

[kvickie]

Yeah, I have never really understood WHY the Elohim were so opposed to Vain. Did they think that Linden did not NEED the staff to heal the Land? Why did they ignore him when they first got to Elmensedene? And why did they try to keep him there?

I guess I always thought that some of the elohim wanted Covenant to just hand over the ring and let them fix things themselves. I believe that there were other elohim who were more ethical and knew that it wasn't something they should do. Those were the ones who appointed Findail. Findail was upset for obvious reasons, whether he knew what was right or not. I think he always hoped that someone would just give him the ring and get it over with.

For the Elohim who wanted the ring, Vain's purpose was unnecessary, so if they could get rid of him it would force the other elohim to help them get the ring.

Does that make any sense at all?

[Aleksandr]

Why did they ignore him when they first got to Elmensedene?

To prevent TC and companions from realizing their interest in him, so they could draw him off and imprison him without TC going nuclear with the Ring.

And why did they try to keep him there?

To prevent his purpose. My guess is they figured that TC and Linden would eventually become so defeated and hopeless they would return and beg the Elohim to take the Ring and heal the Sunbane.

[drew]

The Elohim, as a whole, don't give a good creator-damn about the Land or anyone who lives in it. They don't care about Bratherealm, and the don't care about Home. They may have cared once for the Land when they appopinted the Collosus; and that's probebly what caused them to not care about Landers. If they cared at all, they would have helped Kevin out, they would have helped the Brathairs against The Sandgorgans, And the Kemper...they woulhave helped any Giants caught in the Soulbitter.
But they do care about the Earth as a whole. Which is why they wnted to do something about the Sunbane. They appointed Findail..but did they appoint Findail to make himself one with a spawn of the demomdim, and become the new staff of law? Probebly not, but the ur-viles weird may have let them know about this guy, and they came up with that idea on ther own. Findail may have been origianly appointed to go with the ring-weilder and stop the the sunbane...preferably with the ring in his own hands..which is why they didn't like the idea of Covenant showing up.
So once Vain whowed up, with his own appointment, they new that come hell or high water, he was going to merge with Findail, in the Hands of the ringweilder, but if they did something to stop Vain, then Findails appointment could go back to the orrigional plan. <whew>

-How'd that sound?

[kvickie]

Sorry, I really didn't mean to post that so many times! I left town the next day so I just found out that that happened. I guess I can't delete the extra posts after someone has replied. Sorry!!

I kept re-submitting it because It was saying that the mail server had failed. I had no idea it was collecting them all to submit later!

[Borillar]

For what it's worth, I submitted this question to the GI, so perhaps we'll get an answer.