A personal question about the rape of Lena.

[Sunbaneglasses]

#1.I have wondered befor about others feelings on the rape of Lena like:Do you as a reader have a specific point at which he earns your forgivness as a reader,or believe that he redeems himself?Or #2.Are there some that (not saying that rape is not a horrible thing)believe that his disbelief gives him a 'get out of jail free card'if you will.

[duchess of malfi]

I'm not sure that you will be getting a whole lot of responses, as we've had a lot of threads on this subject, and at least a couple of them got so bad they had to be deleted...

In Covenant's eyes he certainly never forgives or redeems himself. And I think that his guilt is very necesary to the story, as it provides him a big part of his drive to fix things, to get them right.

And in my eyes, his unbelief is no excuse at all for what he did. It was an act of rage and violence, and it is no small coincidence that he attacked Lena right after talking Joan and his failed marriage.

If you go to Dissecting the Land you will see a huge debate on this in the appropriate chapters from LFB.

[JD]

First of all what Convenant did was wrong, short of murder its one of the worse crimes out there. Second the guy was seriously screwed up in the head, his wife left him in disgust, took his child away, the town folk shunned him for over a year, he was taught there was no hope to be cured at the leprosarium, his extremities went numb, he became impotent. Even though Lena was 15-16 years old she was basically a mature female bodywise and he got confused when things started working when they hadn't worked for a long time. Then when she told the story of how her people were married, he felt pity for himself because Joan had abandoned him and all he got her was a pair of riding boots. So he got mad, smacked her around a bit and then raped her. I'm not justifying what he did, just explaining how I saw how it happened. Did he ever redeem himself, in my eyes he did when he saved the "Land". I bet though to himself he never did. He went to the grave regretting that moment and the harm it caused for many people. Atarian, Trell, Lena, Troy, Elena, and Triock. Yes all the crimes he committed was necessary for him to save the Land the way he did, and if he hadn't done what he had done, he might not have saved the Land.

[I'm Murrin]

For me, Covenant's real feelings about the rape always came across in Manhome, in that instant when he let his defenses slip and allowed himself to realise what he'd done. Okay, so running away from the problem by summoning the Ranyhyn instead isn't the best thing he ever did, but that moment, that instant of utter revulsion, was enough for me not to condemn him.

[wayfriend]

#1. [...] Do you as a reader have a specific point at which he earns your forgivness [...] ? #2.Are there some that [...] believe that his disbelief gives him a 'get out of jail free card' [...]

You know, I don't even know how to think this way. I guess I don't judge characters in a story - they're just characters in a story.

I allow the author to convince me to empathize with his situation, and he may succeed or fail at that in his skill as an author. The author in this case succeeded. After so many re-readings, it's automatic now.

But I don't ask 'was that okay?' or 'when will he pay?' when I read. I wonder 'what happens next?'. Hopefully it's interesting ... in this case, it is.

[ There're people who rather automatically judge anyone they see or meet in real life, too. Maybe this is the same thing. But I'm not in the habit of judging someone unless there's a reason to, even just in my own mind. ]

How's that for a crazy answer.

[paulcoz]

Both.

To tell you the truth, that part of the story never bothered me a great deal. Covenant at that point in time, doubts that The Land is real. He believes the whole adventure is an elaborate dream or delusion (and the FCTC is so ambiguous, that you never know for sure). If that is the case, then his actions are excusable - you can't harm a figment of your own imagination (I don't want to get into a long philosophical discussion about our ability to discern the nature of reality - about the substance of real life vs. dreams) in the same way that you can harm a real person.

As long as Covenant believes that his experiences are part of a dream, that he is having a lucid dream, there is no reason why he should feel guilty or have moral qualms about his choice. You cannot harm imaginary people in dreams! I think the prerequisites for judging someones actions are their freedom of choice AND their ability to correctly perceive reality (hence, why there are clauses in civil law related to violence and mental illness).

There is some evidence that dreams are therapeutic. That a part of their purpose is to educate us by playing out our desires, repressed feelings, crimes and triumphs in an external manner, so that we can see possible outcomes and understand their consequences in the real world. If there are no consequences (including harmful ones), where are the moral dilemmas?

Obviously, this argument isn't as convincing if The Land might be real, if Covenant had some doubts about its unreality. To give him some credit, he's been a leper for (40+?) years and suddenly finds himself in a state (dream/delusion?) where his leprosy is magically cured, where he is "potent". We assume he is from our real world and in our experience, there are no such things as alternate universes. What would you think?

If we accept that what TC did was wrong/caused much harm (The Land is real), then he did (IMO) compensate in some ways for his actions. However, he could never take back (undo) what he did to Lena.

(I'm aware that SRD condemns what TC did)

[theDespiser]

my take on the incident...Covenant thought the whole thing was a dream...and the sensations felt so real(for a dream) that it overwhelmed him, and he lost control...as time "progressed" in the Land, he realises that maybe his actions had real conequences, as the Land didnt just "go away" or he didnt wake up...

and while the rape was pretty extreme, i wasnt 'appalled' by it or anything, as i just saw it as part of the story, and the building of a character in said story...

[drew]

I think the long and short of it may be that, Covenant was not a good guy! I know it wasn't all his fault, but he berated and hurt just about everyone he crossed paths with...soem more-so than others. Even Foamfollwer, who was probely his best friend in the Land, and Mhoram, his second best friend, at the battle of Soaring Woodhelvin, he crapped all over Foamfollwer, and showed Mhoram no respect for his dead parents...now none of this is on the same level as the Rape-but it goes to show that Covenant was a jerk!
But that is why The Chronicles are so great! Instead of cheering on the hero the whole book, (Go Aragon Go! Go Aragon Go!) I was more or less thinking, "You'd better win, you jerk, you owe it to EVERYONE!"

ps-The scene that bothered me more than the Rape, was when Triock attacked him, and Atiaran heard the news and was in shock, TC just stood there mouthing off to her that he needed a bandage for his cut fingers.

[balon!]

Ive always been both on the subject. Firstly, TC thought it was a dream, so the rape itself, in his mind, would have been a violent "Guy Dream" But on the other hand, im SO against rape that even with the dream thing i still held TC accountable for it.

[MrKABC]

I think the long and short of it may be that, Covenant was not a good guy! I know it wasn't all his fault, but he berated and hurt just about everyone he crossed paths with...soem more-so than others. Even Foamfollwer, who was probely his best friend in the Land, and Mhoram, his second best friend, at the battle of Soaring Woodhelvin, he crapped all over Foamfollwer, and showed Mhoram no respect for his dead parents...now none of this is on the same level as the Rape-but it goes to show that Covenant was a jerk!
But that is why The Chronicles are so great! Instead of cheering on the hero the whole book, (Go Aragon Go! Go Aragon Go!) I was more or less thinking, "You'd better win, you jerk, you owe it to EVERYONE!"

ps-The scene that bothered me more than the Rape, was when Triock attacked him, and Atiaran heard the news and was in shock, TC just stood there mouthing off to her that he needed a bandage for his cut fingers.

Yes, I could not have said this better myself! I remember reading Covenant whining "I'm in pain!" and thinking, "so what you loser, Triock should plant that stonedownor knife in your back for what you just did!"

I also remember cheering Trell on when he smashed Covenant into the wall in Revelstone, and hoping Bannor would wait just a few more minutes before interceding, just long enough for Trell to get in a few more good licks.

The most unforgivable thing (after the rape) was Covenant's refusal to save Elena when she needed him. He was next to the EarthBlood, the ring was flaming, ready for use, and Bannor was supporting him... and what did he do? Run like a coward. I remember being so angry at his cowardice I couldn't see straight.

Guess that's why, 20 years later, I still enjoy the books - because you DIDN'T like Covenant for what he had done and what he was, but at the end he found redemption.

[I'm Murrin]

ps-The scene that bothered me more than the Rape, was when Triock attacked him, and Atiaran heard the news and was in shock, TC just stood there mouthing off to her that he needed a bandage for his cut fingers.

Yes, I could not have said this better myself! I remember reading Covenant whining "I'm in pain!" and thinking, "so what you loser, Triock should plant that stonedownor knife in your back for what you just did!"

I really don't get how people can have that reaction. For me, it came across very strongly and clearly in that scene that Covenant was most certainly in a state of shock - I mean, he hadn't felt a thing in his hand for a whole year, and when he was cut by Triock he was overwhelmed by this sudden sensation which to his mind was not possible. He hardly knew what Triock was there for at all in the first moments after he was cut, never mind being able to defend/beg forgiveness for his actions.

[theDespiser]

Ive always been both on the subject. Firstly, TC thought it was a dream, so the rape itself, in his mind, would have been a violent "Guy Dream" But on the other hand, im SO against rape that even with the dream thing i still held TC accountable for it.

id say hes accountable since it still happened, whether he thought it was real or not...since it turned out to be...i just dont think that he was a person who would have normally done something like that...

[Avatar]

In terms of the way I reacted, I'm with Wayfriend. When I learned that some people are shocked/horrified/put off by that scene, I was really surprised.

Hell, I have enough trouble judging real people, let alone fictional charaters.

That said, I think Murrin makes an excellent point about the shock of something which you know to be impossible happening to you.

Despiser-- Forget what it turned out to be; are you suggesting that we are responsible for what we imagine as well as what we actually do? Doesn't this come perilously close to the concept of "thought-crimes"?

--Avatar

[paulcoz]

"id say hes accountable since it still happened, whether he thought it was real or not...since it turned out to be..."

"Despiser-- Forget what it turned out to be; are you suggesting that we are responsible for what we imagine as well as what we actually do? Doesn't this come perilously close to the concept of "thought-crimes"?"

Interesting point. He's definitely accountable in The Land, in what may be, but isn't necessarily, a delusion. Is he also accountable in the real world? The comment that 'since it turned out to be' is misleading, as it is not clear whether the land is or isn't a dream (it may all be in his head). It's possible that no harm was done.

If the land WAS real and he did commit a horrendous crime, then surely although the inhabitants of The Land would have an interest in preventing him from committing further misdeeds, that would tell us nothing of the morality of his choice. Doesn't morality (or ethics) requires a true *awareness/understanding* of reality, as well as choice? Do we judge people on the basis of the harm/help they think their actions will cause in what we term "reality", or the harm/help they *actually* cause? Perhaps there is a difference of opinion (east vs. west) involved in this debate?

[Avatar]

Hmm, I tend to agree that morality requires some sort of awareness, but what sort? Awareness that what you're doing is wrong? (BTW, Welcome paulcoz. )

What I'm suggesting here is that as long as he believed that he was imagining things, he wasn't doing anything that was wrong.

Of course, if the Land is real, the wrong is awful, but we can't give "fantasy" the same moral weight as we do to reality.

It's like saying that imagining hitting some annoying person in the face is as "wrong" as actually doing it.

As we've argued elsewhere, I think that the crime lies in the action. If this is so, and if, as we know, he believed without doubt that the Land was simply a dream, this means that he believed there was no action in the first place. In other words, he didn't do it.

We could even take this further, and consider that the very fact that it tormented him with such guilt should have been his first indication that the Land was every bit as real as he was. If it hadn't been, why the guilt? He knew that he had actually done something, which was a tacit acceptance of the "reality" of the Land.

--Avatar

[Cail]

Another thing to consider is that if the Land was real, imagine TC's shock of not being impotent anymore. I'm not excusing the rape, but I have to believe that he was completely overwhelmed by suddenly being "whole" again.

[theDespiser]

exactly

[drew]

I really don't get how people can have that reaction. For me, it came across very strongly and clearly in that scene that Covenant was most certainly in a state of shock - I mean, he hadn't felt a thing in his hand for a whole year, and when he was cut by Triock he was overwhelmed by this sudden sensation which to his mind was not possible. He hardly knew what Triock was there for at all in the first moments after he was cut, never mind being able to defend/beg forgiveness for his actions.

Try telling that to Atiaran!!

[I'm Murrin]

How Atiaran feels about it is beside the point. MrKABC said he was upset when, once confronted by Triock, Covenant was concerned only with the pain in his hand. My response was that this is perfectly reasonable reaction for Covenant to have, since the pain was an immediate and considerable shock, and Covenant's mind would react to it in a way that made any other concerns secondary.

[drew]

I dunno, that still seemed pretty harsh.
"Hey who cares about your teenaged daughter I've just rapped...I can feel my hand bleeding, it's been so long, now get a me a Band-aid!"
He could have sat on the sensation for a few minutes, when he saw atiaran crying on her knees for Trell to save her.