Yes, I was upset at Covenant because all he cared about was his bleeding fingers and not the three lives he has just destroyed. Imagine someone in Triock's position - this man has raped the girl you have been planning to marry for years. Do you really care about if his fingers hurt?Murrin wrote:How Atiaran feels about it is beside the point. MrKABC said he was upset when, once confronted by Triock, Covenant was concerned only with the pain in his hand. My response was that this is perfectly reasonable reaction for Covenant to have, since the pain was an immediate and considerable shock, and Covenant's mind would react to it in a way that made any other concerns secondary.
A personal question about the rape of Lena.
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Sure, Triock and Atiaran wouldn't care about how Covenant felt, but in the same sense he wouldn't care about how they felt.
He's dreaming, which makes them figments of his imagination, (to him at least), which makes them secondary to his own feelings. If we were talking about reality here, then absolutley, Covenants reaction is unconscionable. But if we take his situation at face value, i.e. it's all a dream, then why should he care about those figments?
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He's dreaming, which makes them figments of his imagination, (to him at least), which makes them secondary to his own feelings. If we were talking about reality here, then absolutley, Covenants reaction is unconscionable. But if we take his situation at face value, i.e. it's all a dream, then why should he care about those figments?
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"Hmm, I tend to agree that morality requires some sort of awareness, but what sort? Awareness that what you're doing is wrong?"
Yes, aware of possible choices and the consequences of them. Able to correctly discern the reality of things we perceive and the things we call our experiences. We only need be concerned about harm we do actually cause in reality. We assume we are capable of distinguishing imaginings from reality. If someone didn't have that capacity, they may make perfectly ethical (good) choices (eg. 'I can do this because I don't believe I'm actually harming anything') that did result in harm because their decisions weren't based on "facts". If this problem with their perception is outside their control, can we really label their decisions as right or wrong (as they may be trying to cause as little harm as possible to the best of their ability), hence my question about intentions vs. outcomes. In reality, outcomes usually do count more. What about in unreality?
"We could even take this further, and consider that the very fact that it tormented him with such guilt should have been his first indication that the Land was every bit as real as he was. If it hadn't been, why the guilt? He knew that he had actually done something, which was a tacit acceptance of the "reality" of the Land."
Good point. If I remember correctly (particularly at the end of TPTP), TC sort of doubts and believes at the same time? That's part of the paradox that allows him to tap his power? (he seems to believe more and more as the story progresses)
Yes, aware of possible choices and the consequences of them. Able to correctly discern the reality of things we perceive and the things we call our experiences. We only need be concerned about harm we do actually cause in reality. We assume we are capable of distinguishing imaginings from reality. If someone didn't have that capacity, they may make perfectly ethical (good) choices (eg. 'I can do this because I don't believe I'm actually harming anything') that did result in harm because their decisions weren't based on "facts". If this problem with their perception is outside their control, can we really label their decisions as right or wrong (as they may be trying to cause as little harm as possible to the best of their ability), hence my question about intentions vs. outcomes. In reality, outcomes usually do count more. What about in unreality?
"We could even take this further, and consider that the very fact that it tormented him with such guilt should have been his first indication that the Land was every bit as real as he was. If it hadn't been, why the guilt? He knew that he had actually done something, which was a tacit acceptance of the "reality" of the Land."
Good point. If I remember correctly (particularly at the end of TPTP), TC sort of doubts and believes at the same time? That's part of the paradox that allows him to tap his power? (he seems to believe more and more as the story progresses)
_________
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Paulcoz.
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Spotteddoe
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This is the most difficult aspect for me...
I have four sons, yet I was "Lena" when I was 13 years old. My "hero" figure was the school's superjock. Like Lena - I attempted to hide both my pain and my shame - not to protect him - but because I felt it would destroy my mother and father to know what had happened.
Reading Lord Fouls Bane four years latter forced me to really reflect on how I felt about that incident. In part, I read the rest of the story because I wanted to see what consequences he would face in "The Land." But in time, the author's sensitivity to just how wrong that act was helped me - personally to feel that there were other people out there who were just as incensed by such things as I was.
I have mentioned before that I have been reading LFB with my 13 y/o son for a book report. It was a difficult choice, because I didn't know how he might react to that rape scene. So we read it together.
I was moved to tears when he looked up at me with bewildered, glossy eyes and asked "Did he just rape her?"
I told him yes... My my son looked so sorrowful - and then he said in a slightly choked, angry voice "I liked Lena, she didn't deserve that."
"No one ever does, honey." I responded. Like me, he almost wanted to stop reading the book. I told him that much of the rest of that story dealt with Thomas Covenant's attempts to attone for that action.
I think that one of the things that I have seen in Donaldson's work - is an ability to accept responsibility for deeds done - even in percieved dreams. Many people see dreams as random firings of neurons in the brain. But I have always seen dreams as revealing as to our own experiences, character, beliefs and waking struggles.
I am grateful that an author was brave enough to approach the concept of rape and violence - from a male perspective - and portray it as it is - with the heavy burden of guilt, self-recrimination, and lingering fear as well. It did kind of bother me that he linked it so much with the resurgence of lost potency when it is obvious from the train of dialogue prior to the rape that the rage at Joans abandonment and betrayal was the true catalyst for his attack - the new potency simply provided the means of the assault.
I have wondered about how this generation would view the rape scene though. It's a different world than it was when the book was first written. Increased awareness, more instances of prosecution and a number of other factors are sure to alter the reception of that part of the story from a new reading audience.
But over-all - I think Donaldson did an excellent job of taking us through a dark journey into the depths of guilt, redemption, dispair and hope. As for forgiveness - as a reader and as a person - in cases like these - I have always considered "forgiveness" the perpetrators burden to bear, search for and to attain - not the victims obligation to give or to even feel.
Covenant's story continues in the next book to reveal just how inadequate his attempts to attone for his actions had been. It demonstrates that there is not ever any way to truly attone for a wrong - once done - all attempt at attonement falls shy of healing or mitigating the damage. But it is a mark of Covenant's true character that he never stops trying to "attone" or to redeem "the Land."
The book provided a platform for me to discuss with my son the choices that all people are faced with - and the importance of trying to do what we know is right, no matter what the circumstances are. I am always greatful for any resource that helps me make a good point like this to my kids that doesn't come across as preaching.
We just read through the part in Manhome where Covenant feels the full impact of the realization of what he had done to Lena. I could hear the tension in my son's voice as he read about how Gay reminded Covenant of Lena - and even though I knew the story - I felt that same question - would he repeat his crime again?
If this seems redundant or off track from the most recent replies - I didn't have time tonight to read through all of them, so I decided to just throw in my 2 cents worth.
Goodnight now.
Reading Lord Fouls Bane four years latter forced me to really reflect on how I felt about that incident. In part, I read the rest of the story because I wanted to see what consequences he would face in "The Land." But in time, the author's sensitivity to just how wrong that act was helped me - personally to feel that there were other people out there who were just as incensed by such things as I was.
I have mentioned before that I have been reading LFB with my 13 y/o son for a book report. It was a difficult choice, because I didn't know how he might react to that rape scene. So we read it together.
I was moved to tears when he looked up at me with bewildered, glossy eyes and asked "Did he just rape her?"
I told him yes... My my son looked so sorrowful - and then he said in a slightly choked, angry voice "I liked Lena, she didn't deserve that."
"No one ever does, honey." I responded. Like me, he almost wanted to stop reading the book. I told him that much of the rest of that story dealt with Thomas Covenant's attempts to attone for that action.
I think that one of the things that I have seen in Donaldson's work - is an ability to accept responsibility for deeds done - even in percieved dreams. Many people see dreams as random firings of neurons in the brain. But I have always seen dreams as revealing as to our own experiences, character, beliefs and waking struggles.
I am grateful that an author was brave enough to approach the concept of rape and violence - from a male perspective - and portray it as it is - with the heavy burden of guilt, self-recrimination, and lingering fear as well. It did kind of bother me that he linked it so much with the resurgence of lost potency when it is obvious from the train of dialogue prior to the rape that the rage at Joans abandonment and betrayal was the true catalyst for his attack - the new potency simply provided the means of the assault.
I have wondered about how this generation would view the rape scene though. It's a different world than it was when the book was first written. Increased awareness, more instances of prosecution and a number of other factors are sure to alter the reception of that part of the story from a new reading audience.
But over-all - I think Donaldson did an excellent job of taking us through a dark journey into the depths of guilt, redemption, dispair and hope. As for forgiveness - as a reader and as a person - in cases like these - I have always considered "forgiveness" the perpetrators burden to bear, search for and to attain - not the victims obligation to give or to even feel.
Covenant's story continues in the next book to reveal just how inadequate his attempts to attone for his actions had been. It demonstrates that there is not ever any way to truly attone for a wrong - once done - all attempt at attonement falls shy of healing or mitigating the damage. But it is a mark of Covenant's true character that he never stops trying to "attone" or to redeem "the Land."
The book provided a platform for me to discuss with my son the choices that all people are faced with - and the importance of trying to do what we know is right, no matter what the circumstances are. I am always greatful for any resource that helps me make a good point like this to my kids that doesn't come across as preaching.
We just read through the part in Manhome where Covenant feels the full impact of the realization of what he had done to Lena. I could hear the tension in my son's voice as he read about how Gay reminded Covenant of Lena - and even though I knew the story - I felt that same question - would he repeat his crime again?
If this seems redundant or off track from the most recent replies - I didn't have time tonight to read through all of them, so I decided to just throw in my 2 cents worth.
Goodnight now.
Spotteddoe
Few authors have conveyed so clearly the true meaning of the phrase "Unto Thine Own Self Be True."
Thank you Mr. Donaldson.
Few authors have conveyed so clearly the true meaning of the phrase "Unto Thine Own Self Be True."
Thank you Mr. Donaldson.
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No, Spotted Doe, a beautiful and moving post. On everyone's behalf, I offer deepest sympathies for your own experience. I'm sure that you realise that we discuss these things hypothetically here, and in terms of fiction, and fictional characters only.
When faced with the realities of life, by far the majority of what we say is worthless. So much meaningless hypothesis that affects the fictional world not at all, and the real world perhaps even less.
I think that you make an interesting point as well, about dreams simply being an internal version of our lives and actions anyway, and a very valid point about the rage at Joan being the actual motivator for the rape.
Great post, and once again, welcome aboard. It's good to have you here.
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When faced with the realities of life, by far the majority of what we say is worthless. So much meaningless hypothesis that affects the fictional world not at all, and the real world perhaps even less.
I think that you make an interesting point as well, about dreams simply being an internal version of our lives and actions anyway, and a very valid point about the rage at Joan being the actual motivator for the rape.
Great post, and once again, welcome aboard. It's good to have you here.
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Spotteddoe
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Thank you Avatar
I couldn't say that what is written here is flippant or unimportant in any way.
One of the enduring attractions of books like these is the platform they provide for thought - even for those who view them merely as forms of fantastical entertainment.
If there weren't challenging themes and issues that are familair and recognizeable to our real life experiences (loneliness, despair, love, conflict, crime, punishment, redemption, etc...) it wouldn't be as enjoyable to read the stories.
My husband never used to look for the "meaning" in movies or books (I've retrained him
). For me, part of the enjoyment is in the search for those sometimes unintended messages.
I think Donaldson wrote his book with the hope of entertaining the reader but in doing so, he provided them with challenges that make them think and feel things they might otherwise "gloss over" or push aside. He writes about Covenant's abhorrence to war and killing - (he was writing during the Vietnam Era afterall). The land is a world without industrialization - which makes it even more beautiful to those of us in this world who were part of that generation just beginning to realize the ravages of industry in our own world.
These may not have been intentional themes - he was probably just writing to entertain, but any honest artest cannot create great works of fiction without pouring their own heart and soul into the works to some extent.
The rape of Lena is just another one of those things Donaldson challenges us to reflect on. The redemption of Covenant is never clear - there is no act of forgiveness - there is just his personal struggle to come to grips with his own potential for evil - and his attempts to atone for what he has done. It challenges us look more deeply at our own selves - and to ponder own own potential for both good and evil and even restitution or forgiveness.
One of the enduring attractions of books like these is the platform they provide for thought - even for those who view them merely as forms of fantastical entertainment.
If there weren't challenging themes and issues that are familair and recognizeable to our real life experiences (loneliness, despair, love, conflict, crime, punishment, redemption, etc...) it wouldn't be as enjoyable to read the stories.
My husband never used to look for the "meaning" in movies or books (I've retrained him
). For me, part of the enjoyment is in the search for those sometimes unintended messages.I think Donaldson wrote his book with the hope of entertaining the reader but in doing so, he provided them with challenges that make them think and feel things they might otherwise "gloss over" or push aside. He writes about Covenant's abhorrence to war and killing - (he was writing during the Vietnam Era afterall). The land is a world without industrialization - which makes it even more beautiful to those of us in this world who were part of that generation just beginning to realize the ravages of industry in our own world.
These may not have been intentional themes - he was probably just writing to entertain, but any honest artest cannot create great works of fiction without pouring their own heart and soul into the works to some extent.
The rape of Lena is just another one of those things Donaldson challenges us to reflect on. The redemption of Covenant is never clear - there is no act of forgiveness - there is just his personal struggle to come to grips with his own potential for evil - and his attempts to atone for what he has done. It challenges us look more deeply at our own selves - and to ponder own own potential for both good and evil and even restitution or forgiveness.
Spotteddoe
Few authors have conveyed so clearly the true meaning of the phrase "Unto Thine Own Self Be True."
Thank you Mr. Donaldson.
Few authors have conveyed so clearly the true meaning of the phrase "Unto Thine Own Self Be True."
Thank you Mr. Donaldson.
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Like duchess, I was apprehensive about yet another debate over the rape of Lena, but it's been good reading what our newer members have to say on the subject.
Spotteddoe, your 2 cents is very much appreciated! It's wonderful to have such an eloquent voice as yours among us. Your story of reading LFB with your son is beautiful...I wish SRD could know about it, though I think he'd probably be mortified as well if he knew, since he's often stated that he never meant for young people to read the Covenant books. Yet he often gets e-mail in his Gradual Interview that begins with: "Hi, I first read the Chronicles when I was 13..."
Spotteddoe, your 2 cents is very much appreciated! It's wonderful to have such an eloquent voice as yours among us. Your story of reading LFB with your son is beautiful...I wish SRD could know about it, though I think he'd probably be mortified as well if he knew, since he's often stated that he never meant for young people to read the Covenant books. Yet he often gets e-mail in his Gradual Interview that begins with: "Hi, I first read the Chronicles when I was 13..."
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Spotteddoe
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The appropriate age of readers....
It was a hard decision to let my youngest son choose LFB for his book report. I have an 18 and a 16 year old I haven't offered it to. I don't think I would have allowed it if he hadn't agreed to discussing it with me as we read it together.
I told him it would be a difficult book - with lots of language he would have to look up. But he wanted so much to read the ruins of earth that I let him go ahead and buy LFB. I didn't realize at the time that there were references to the early books in the Ruins. I am still glad that I have had the opportunity to go through this book with my son.
I understand Donaldson's view of this as an adult story. But it is far-far less adult in it's content than Piers Anthony and a few other sci-fi/fantasy writers I've read have been so I felt it was relatively safe.
My son is about the age where I have traditionally had my serious "birds and the bees" talk anyway - this book actually made it easier for me to point out the importance of personal responsibility in that area.
Some might think it's a little young, but that super jock - when I was 13 - was only 14, so I know that these things do need to be discussed early than once assumed - especially since the world of the teenager is a great deal less innocent than it was when I grew up - which was a great deal less innocent than when Donaldson was a teen.
We live in a current world - where young people are being labeled - with life long consequences - for crimes such as these. While I understand the need to recognize offenders and support victims - I also worry about the eternal condemnation of people so young that they are left devoid of hope of ever proving to the world that they learned from a mistake once made.
One of the reasons I don't mind discussing things like this with my rapidly pubescing boys - is that I would rather help them steer clear of all confusion or calamity - than see them struggle through the shame and despair of having something to truly regret as their lives start out.
That's probably better left to another discussion area, so I will leave it at that. Thanks for all your welcomes and comments. I appreciate it all very much.
I told him it would be a difficult book - with lots of language he would have to look up. But he wanted so much to read the ruins of earth that I let him go ahead and buy LFB. I didn't realize at the time that there were references to the early books in the Ruins. I am still glad that I have had the opportunity to go through this book with my son.
I understand Donaldson's view of this as an adult story. But it is far-far less adult in it's content than Piers Anthony and a few other sci-fi/fantasy writers I've read have been so I felt it was relatively safe.
My son is about the age where I have traditionally had my serious "birds and the bees" talk anyway - this book actually made it easier for me to point out the importance of personal responsibility in that area.
Some might think it's a little young, but that super jock - when I was 13 - was only 14, so I know that these things do need to be discussed early than once assumed - especially since the world of the teenager is a great deal less innocent than it was when I grew up - which was a great deal less innocent than when Donaldson was a teen.
We live in a current world - where young people are being labeled - with life long consequences - for crimes such as these. While I understand the need to recognize offenders and support victims - I also worry about the eternal condemnation of people so young that they are left devoid of hope of ever proving to the world that they learned from a mistake once made.
One of the reasons I don't mind discussing things like this with my rapidly pubescing boys - is that I would rather help them steer clear of all confusion or calamity - than see them struggle through the shame and despair of having something to truly regret as their lives start out.
That's probably better left to another discussion area, so I will leave it at that. Thanks for all your welcomes and comments. I appreciate it all very much.
Spotteddoe
Few authors have conveyed so clearly the true meaning of the phrase "Unto Thine Own Self Be True."
Thank you Mr. Donaldson.
Few authors have conveyed so clearly the true meaning of the phrase "Unto Thine Own Self Be True."
Thank you Mr. Donaldson.
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MatrixMan said it perfectly as usual. 
What I meant when I said our discussions were meaningless was more that while our theories may be great, they are still only theories, and cannot compare with one dose of personal experience.
Don't get me wrong, I love these discussions, and I find them to be of great worth. As discussions. As a means of exploring the possibilities of our world. They may contain answers, but they are not the answer.
Regardless, it is a pleasure to have you join us, and I look forward to your posts in the future.
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What I meant when I said our discussions were meaningless was more that while our theories may be great, they are still only theories, and cannot compare with one dose of personal experience.
Don't get me wrong, I love these discussions, and I find them to be of great worth. As discussions. As a means of exploring the possibilities of our world. They may contain answers, but they are not the answer.
Regardless, it is a pleasure to have you join us, and I look forward to your posts in the future.
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I started this and now am finally getting back around to it.Some very enlightening and moving posts-and no fights-!As far as forgiveness,the second or third chapter of TWL 'Thunder and Lightening' I think (I don't have the book on hand) is where I came to feel sympathy for Covenant as he fought with his guilt and fond memories of the Land as he was trying to get the courage to tell Linden what he had done(this is also where I realized that Covenant had changed and was no longer the jackass that he could be in the first crons and in my mind changed from an anti-hero to a hero)when he came out about what he had done to Linden,despite her reaction I think he set himself free in a way,if not to himself,then at least to this reader.And as for redemption,if Covenant ever thought that he had totally redeemed himself then the story would lose one of its major driving forces,that is for the character to decide and not the reader in my opinion.I doubt Covenant will ever feel a sense of redemption.
i should preface by saying that i believe that in the real world, rapists should be executed (yeah, i'm real conservative) and to make it worse, i assumed lena was a virgin, and believe that raping a virgin is even worse (just as in taking a life it is an act that cannot be undone).
HOWEVER...i always took at as him going crazy. not even 24 hours in the land, the hurtloam is healing him, and while he doesn't recognize it for what it is, it's still obviously now given him a physically tool to match his libido. and the whole concept of the land to him at this point is that he is somehow dellusional.
so i always assumed to allow him to still be an OK hero, because of all that, and it always comes back to haunt him when he realized his act was real, and not more delusion.
one last preface, or is this a postface, it's a book, it's fiction, it's ok to allow your ethics to be blurred....just like in your private sexual fantasies. a lot of those are ones that you would never do for real...
HOWEVER...i always took at as him going crazy. not even 24 hours in the land, the hurtloam is healing him, and while he doesn't recognize it for what it is, it's still obviously now given him a physically tool to match his libido. and the whole concept of the land to him at this point is that he is somehow dellusional.
so i always assumed to allow him to still be an OK hero, because of all that, and it always comes back to haunt him when he realized his act was real, and not more delusion.
one last preface, or is this a postface, it's a book, it's fiction, it's ok to allow your ethics to be blurred....just like in your private sexual fantasies. a lot of those are ones that you would never do for real...
"Love is a snowmobile racing across the tundra and then suddenly it flips over, pinning you underneath. At night, the ice weasels come."