Atheism and Spirituality

[matrixman]

I see! Calling me trite and baseless, in other words...thanks alot buddy!

LOL! No, you're bright and tasteless...no, wait, that's not right. Light and weightless? Uh...erudite and fearless? Yeah, that's it! (Okay, shutting up, sir...)

[Gadget nee Jemcheeta]

Yeah, you guys have probably been friends on here for years, huh?

The wonder of other individuals, that's something that puts me in a spiritual place as well.

[Fist and Faith]

Whether Fist types it all out every time or just copies and pastes it, the fact is, when he's in the mood, he can respond to a question more deeply and eloquently than almost anybody else on the Watch.

Yikes! Thanks!


danlo, you keep your nose out of what I fiddle with!

er... maybe there's a better way to phrase that...

[Gadget nee Jemcheeta]

So what's this "The Hanger" place of which you speak?

[Fist and Faith]

!!!!

heh

The Hangar is danlo's site: p210.ezboard.com/bahirashangar

It's dedicated to the most extraordinary Neverness books. It's the Watch's Sister Site. Originally, it did a lot of things that weren't done here: a general sci-fi forum, a philosophy forum, forums for different authors, etc. Lately, the Watch has added some of the same things.

Many people have the same name there as here, but some don't. I'm Highdrake there, and I run the philosophy forum (The Fravashi District), and The Immanent Grove: Le Guin, and the Dune forums. (It would sure be awesome if some folks here went there and got involved with the sloooooooooow-moving Dune dissection.)

[Gadget nee Jemcheeta]

I can't believe I still haven't read any Dune past the first one.
I mean, how many recommendations do I need? Heh...

[matrixman]

Yeah, I'm a member at the Hangar, but I'm not saying what my name there is. You'll have to go there and figure it out yourself, heh. Haven't posted much there lately, but I might drop into the Dune dissection at some point.

Back to the topic at hand: like others have said, I'm not required to believe in a supreme being to feel spiritual. I'm a spiragnosticist. So there. Hmm, that comes out sounding like Spiro Agnew.

[Gadget nee Jemcheeta]

I was about to say that... Spiroagnewstic. Heh.

[Avatar]

Perhaps metaphysical is a better word than "spiritual"? Not sure, just a thought.

met·a·phys·i·cal (mt-fz-kl)
adj.
1. Of or relating to metaphysics.
2. Based on speculative or abstract reasoning.
3. Highly abstract or theoretical; abstruse.
4.
a. Immaterial; incorporeal.
b. Supernatural.

I don't consider myself "spritual" per se, but I do take great pleasure in the complexities and beauties of the world, and of the people who fill it.

Hell, beauty may be as good a word as any. The world is an amazing place, and we understand so little of it. Today's magic may be tomorrows physics, and it's wonderful.

--A

[Gadget nee Jemcheeta]

So what's yesterday's magic?

[Fist and Faith]

Today's physics?

Oh! My flashlight!!!

[Avatar]

Exactly!

--A

[Gadget nee Jemcheeta]

In the Gradual interview, SRD said:

So: when I say I'm not a religious person, I mean I don't adhere to--or even listen to--anyone or anything who thinks that he/she/it can tell me THE TRUTH ABOUT LIFE. On the other hand, I'm *very* interested in the efforts of my characters to discover and name their particular versions of THE TRUTH ABOUT LIFE. And I'm so interested, of course, because I'm trying to do the same thing they are. In my view, therefore, I'm a spiritual rather than a religious person; and I write stories about spiritual questions rather than about religious answers.

Haha! :)

[Fist and Faith]

DAMN, he's a smart guy!

[Gadget nee Jemcheeta]

w0rd. For sure.
That's some impressive stuff.

[Fist and Faith]

*bump* for the Lady of Revel

[Lady Revel]

Thank you Fist, I hadn't seen this thread and it has been quite helpful.

What I am going to say below is what I personally think, or "believe", and it is not meant to hurt anyone, nor am I trying to persuade anyone to my thoughts or beliefs. As far as I am concerned everyone's beliefs are just as valid as the next persons. I am not trying to make out like I know better than anyone, because as you will see, the only think that I DO know, is that I know nothing at all. In fact, if I were you, I'd stop reading right now, because all that follows is a stream of consciousness, and nothing very interesting.

I define myself as agnostic, not atheist (my parents are atheist, but we disagree on certain points), because I really do not know the origin of life, and I feel like I (personally) would be an idiot to say that there absolutely isn't a higher power of some kind or another. But what higher power it is, and whether to worship it is another thing to define altogether.

I highly doubt that any kind of organized religion is close to hitting the nail on the head regarding how we are here and who is in charge. Once again this is a personal feeling, please do not think I am denouncing others in any way. In fact, I often feel that those who have faith in a religion of some sort are way ahead of the game, because it offers a sort of solace, an understanding of where they fit in, and of course, a network with other people who all agree what the score is. Whereas, I just kind of wander around not knowing anything whatsoever, and that can be a scary feeling.

I don't know what the deal is, and I know I never will. Perhaps its not for me to know. I think (or perhaps I should say that I "believe") that when I die, some of my atoms may be remade into a star, some will be used to create a worm, and many will be used for dust, or other things; whatever, my atoms will be reused somewhere, but I don't know WHY that should be and never will.

Are we a petrie dish, a high school experiment that was forgotten about and somehow managed to continue on? Or perhaps a well thought out science experiment? Is time different in an alternate universe and we are just a blink of an eye? Is there something out there generating universe after universe like

Spoiler

Joan creates ceasures

? Is the earth a cancer cell inside of another body, starting to pollute and kill the cells around us, as we are filling space with junk are we are moving poison into a bloodstream? No, I don't "believe" any of those things, but to me, they are about as probable as Jesus Christ arising from the dead. I do believe that a man named Jesus really lived at one time, the key is, I don't believe that he arose from the dead or that he was the son of "God", whomever or whatever "God" may be.

The answers that organized religion offer me do not satisfy me. I (personally) feel that it is pie in the sky, and was made up in order to keep hope alive when life was hard and cruel and very little pleasure was to be had and also to civilize folks before there were rules and laws.

I fully believe in "Christian" ideals....do unto others as you would have them done unto you, etc. etc, and I respect folks who can make a leap of faith and follow the tenets of a religion, to me, that is very impressive. I really, truly wish I could believe, because I think I would feel an awful lot safer than I do, and maybe I would feel like I counted more, a child of some larger being, who cared about me, and was concerned with my behavior and wanted me to do the right things.

Okay, I have a friend who often tries to persuade me to see her view. She says to me, "I can prove it, its right in the Bible. Look, right here! Its the truth!" That proves nothing to me. How can I possibly believe in something that was a collection of writings that occurred three HUNDRED years AFTER Jesus' death and then a group of men got together and decided what writings should be kept and what writings should be tossed aside (what made their opinion so important?), and then was passed down generation after generation like the game of telephone, until we reached a level of technology where we could standardize it?

It would be like me trying to write about George Washington's life with just about 1 percent of all the handy reference materials we have today. How much would I get right? The story about chopping down the cherry tree and not being able to tell a lie? Totally made up, the author of that story even admitted he totally made it up, but he thought it sounded awful nice and so incorporated it into the mystique of President Washington's childhood. It was taught to me in school as fact.

I think the Bible is a great story, some of it pretty scary (the old Testament), some of it full of moral directives, but to me its a story. Once again, I am not criticizing anyone who believes differently. Really, who do I think I am that anyone cares about what I think? If you are still reading this I would be surprised.

I guess I just don't have it in me to take a leap of faith when I feel the ground is so shaky. And to me, so likely to be wrong. In my opinion, why devote my life to something that probably isn't correct? I had a friend who said, "But believing doesn't hurt anything, in fact, you protect yourself just in case, because all you have to do is believe and you can get into heaven". It cannot be that easy. And I am sure that many will tell me that its not that easy. You have to do other things, also. Repent, confess, pray....whatever. There are so many different ideas out there, that it seems impossible that any could be right. If I were a God, I'd be darn sure that everyone was doing what I wanted them to. I know, I know, I am not a God, and a religious person would argue that I couldn't possibly understand His logic. But that arguement is so.....so ambiguous, it could be used to argue anything.

I guess I am just feeling sorry for myself, because I kind of feel left out of something big.....but I cannot lie to myself, either. Going to a church just so I could feel like part of the crowd and be a part of something goes against my own moral code. That would be lying....to me, and to everyone around me, and that would be wrong. So, I guess I just keep on keeping on, and hope that someday, I understand a little more than I understand today.

Whew, I'm finally done folks, I said more than my share and will be quiet now.

[Plissken]

Oh, don't quiet up now! We've come to very similar views on religion and spirituality, but from completely different backgrounds. I find this fascinating.

After 12 years of fundamentalist education, it was self-study that made me an agnostic. I can find beauty and poetry in all creation, including the worlds religions, I just don't pretend to know the Poet's name, address, and Social Security Number any more.

[Vector]

Lady Revel,

Truly a great essay. Summarizes a lot of my own thought process better than I would be able to summarize it, myself.

I choose to be spiritual since I like to think there is some underlying scheme behind it all, but I really make no assumptions about what that scheme may be, it seems way too presumtuous to do so - heck the scheme may be nothing but a sense of Karma, that we as humankind need to strive to make a better future through better understanding of our actions and their ramifications on us and the rest of the world - meaning, I guess, that we are responsable to define what the basis of morality is and strive in that direction. - once again I feel that words are failing me...

[Gadget nee Jemcheeta]

I wanted to be the first one to respond to this, but Plissken beat me to it! I want to go line by line with this, because there is so much that I relate to, and I want to make sure I portray that clearly.
T3h Lady r3v3l wrote :)

As far as I am concerned everyone's beliefs are just as valid as the next persons. I am not trying to make out like I know better than anyone, because as you will see, the only think that I DO know, is that I know nothing at all. In fact, if I were you, I'd stop reading right now, because all that follows is a stream of consciousness, and nothing very interesting.

I understand the sentiment that everyone else's beliefs are just as valid. It's a complicated thing. I disagree, however, that if you were us you would stop reading. I think you're the kind of person that would keep reading -because- it's a stream of consciousness, and you are probably very interested in stream of consciousness.

I feel like I (personally) would be an idiot to say that there absolutely isn't a higher power of some kind or another. But what higher power it is, and whether to worship it is another thing to define altogether.

I like that distinction! We have to set our limits on what we can be confident about and what we can't, but we have to MAKE SURE that there are things we -can- be confident about. In spite of the fact that we don't know any universal answers, we need answers for ourselves in our own lives. We need things to live by, even if we can't call them the TRUTH. Whether or not we can define a higher power, we can make a decision of whether or not we will worship it. Because it is our decision. It is up to us. Even if there WAS a higher power, it would still be our decision.

I often feel that those who have faith in a religion of some sort are way ahead of the game, because it offers a sort of solace, an understanding of where they fit in, and of course, a network with other people who all agree what the score is. Whereas, I just kind of wander around not knowing anything whatsoever, and that can be a scary feeling.

I agree in ways. I think you have 'hit the nail on the head' in terms of the benefits that I could get out of actually believing in a higher power and a totally ordered universe. It is solace because you never have to worry about wasting your life. You can dedicate yourself to whatever the belief is. If you believe the Bible is the literal truth, you can always read the Bible and know that not a moment was wasted. You don't have to worry about meaning in your life, because it is provided conveniently. Also, you have the benefit of having a community to support you. It also gives you an outlet: support the community. Another source of meaning for your life. Also, because others agree with you, you can feel better about your belief, so much so that you become convinced that it is the TRUTH and never have to question it again. However, I have never been able to commit myself to that, and I take it you've never either.

I think (or perhaps I should say that I "believe") that when I die, some of my atoms may be remade into a star, some will be used to create a worm, and many will be used for dust, or other things; whatever, my atoms will be reused somewhere, but I don't know WHY that should be and never will.

Actually, I still use the term think as opposed to believe, because I feel like it keeps me free to change my mind. That's the best thing about existentialism as far as I'm concerned. Freedom to change my mind. If I've already accepted that I'm never going to know the WHY of the universe, I can at least be free to change my thoughts whenever something new comes up.

The answers that organized religion offer me do not satisfy me. I (personally) feel that it is pie in the sky, and was made up in order to keep hope alive when life was hard and cruel and very little pleasure was to be had and also to civilize folks before there were rules and laws.

I agree with this mostly. I think there are other reasons for religions, but I definately think they were all circumstantial. Definately the heaven-myth. There's an old labor song that I heard performed by a guy named Utah Philips, who is on Righteous Babes Records, Ani Difranco's record label (I don't know if you're familiar with any of that) but he has a song written by Joe Hill that goes like this:

"Long-haired preachers come out every night
Try to tell you what's wrong and what's right
But when asked about something to eat
They will answer in voices so sweet

'You will eat, by and by,
In that glorious land above the sky
Work and pray, live on hay -
You'll get pie in the sky when you die' - that's a lie!"

I know that might be kind of offensive to some, but it does illustrate the
idea that we can better deal with living in pain and ignorance, here on earth, with the idea that someday it will all change, and we will live in perfect pleasure. While I guess that's possible.... it doesn't seem very likely, does it?

I really, truly wish I could believe, because I think I would feel an awful lot safer than I do, and maybe I would feel like I counted more, a child of some larger being, who cared about me, and was concerned with my behavior and wanted me to do the right things.

Sometimes I Want to believe, because everything would be easier. However, I like who I am, and I wouldn't be myself if I did believe. The part of me that stands up for myself when I have to, and makes my own rules to govern my behaviour, and lets me do the right thing regardless of what others think.... that's all me and my beliefs. I could never surrender my beliefs to an outside force, basically saying "You are right about everything. I am wrong about everything. I will follow all instructions to the letter from now on."
Maybe I'm just too egotistical? But I don't think so. All the thoughts I have about life, they were all fought for and suffered for. I can't just give them up.

Once again, I am not criticizing anyone who believes differently. Really, who do I think I am that anyone cares about what I think? If you are still reading this I would be surprised.

Well, if there's no god that we can communicate to directly, all we're left with is ourselves, the world, and the people around us. I try to place my 'faith' in all three of those things. Most of what I've learned has been from others.

I had a friend who said, "But believing doesn't hurt anything, in fact, you protect yourself just in case, because all you have to do is believe and you can get into heaven". It cannot be that easy. And I am sure that many will tell me that its not that easy. You have to do other things, also. Repent, confess, pray....whatever. There are so many different ideas out there, that it seems impossible that any could be right. If I were a God, I'd be darn sure that everyone was doing what I wanted them to. I know, I know, I am not a God, and a religious person would argue that I couldn't possibly understand His logic. But that arguement is so.....so ambiguous, it could be used to argue anything.

This is so very true. Believing DOES hurt something. It hurts ME. It has negative effects on me. If I believe in SIN I start to feel ashamed of myself, if I believe in Heaven I believe in Hell and start to fear it. I need to devote tons of time to it, 'repent, confess, pray'. I agree, if I were God, I wouldn't be this vague about the whole thing, definately! If there was a way that my 'children' could spend eternity in paradise, and I actually loved them, there wouldn't be a damn thing in the whole universe that could stop them from getting there. Period. Instead we have this idea of the 'ineffable' logic of God, and the 'gift' of free will. What kind of a gift is that? Any gift that opens up the doors to eternal suffering is one I'd rather return for a refund, thanks.

Going to a church just so I could feel like part of the crowd and be a part of something goes against my own moral code. That would be lying....to me, and to everyone around me, and that would be wrong. So, I guess I just keep on keeping on, and hope that someday, I understand a little more than I understand today.

Your own moral code. Which is all we have, our own moral codes, the Rosetta Stones that we've built to help us understand how to live our lives. And one of the most important parts of that moral code is honesty, correct? Honesty to ones self. Even as we say that there is no absolute divinity, we still use words like 'right' and 'wrong' because we still know the difference between right and wrong, regardless of whether or not there is a godlike figure looking down at us to evaluate our performance. We can evaluate our own performance just as well, -thank you very much-




So, do you see where I'm coming from?