Morality -- Relative? or Absolute?

[wayfriend]

It occurs to me that this thread has been like many other discussions of this topic, in that the quest for moral absolutes involves discovering one that just happens to justify everything that you believe is right. It's as if we search for a external source which validates our premises.

Of course, that's a big clue right there. And it's a certainty that if you're predisposed to see only those things that match your requisites, that'll be what you find. And othe other guy, with his own shopping list, will find his. And lo, somehow we end up with the precarious situation that different people have discovered different moral absolutes!

If you want to find a moral absolute, you can't do it by presupposing what it might be and what it might not be. You can't say, when I find it, it'll indicate that helping people is okay and killing people is wrong (or whatever). You have to be prepared to discover that a moral absolute, when you find it, is going to change your idea of what is right and what is wrong. It exists outside of you, or anyone, and it doesn't exist to validate anyone's ideals, and it's not going to spare you.

You'd have to be very brave to look for one in those circumstances.

[Gadget nee Jemcheeta]

But I also disagree with that absolute. I don't believe we're absolutely free at all, if you'll recall, I'm a hardline determinist as of right now (always changing, always changing)
I think it's kind of fanciful to argue against all possible absolutes but one

[Avatar]

I see we're still operating in some imaginary electronic dimension here, on page 5 of 4.

Perhaps the best place afterall for this discussion.

Great post WayFriend.

JemCheeta-- I don't know about all absolutes. I'm wary of them, sure, but morality hardly encompasses all of them does it? Or is it that if there is no absolute morality, then nothing can be certain?

(Sorry, these things do get twisted don't they? Are you against the concept of moral absolutism? I can't remember. )

Surely as a determinist, you don't believe in moral absolutes either? In that if you're not absolutley free, then nothing is your fault? Hence you can't be assigned moral responsibility? Aarg, I think the plot is lost.

--Avatar

[Fist and Faith]

I see we're still operating in some imaginary electronic dimension here, on page 5 of 4.

Perhaps the best place afterall for this discussion.

If you want to find a moral absolute, you can't do it by presupposing what it might be and what it might not be. You can't say, when I find it, it'll indicate that helping people is okay and killing people is wrong (or whatever). You have to be prepared to discover that a moral absolute, when you find it, is going to change your idea of what is right and what is wrong. It exists outside of you, or anyone, and it doesn't exist to validate anyone's ideals, and it's not going to spare you.

You're right. If there are any moral absolute, we should be prepared to accept them. But if there were any, would we have the option of rejecting them?

[Avatar]

Hmm, I think that to truly be a moral absolute, it would have to be something which nobody could reject. That said, I'm not sure if we can include the "willfull" rejection thereof, based on selfishness/desire/whatever.

If it can be rejected, how can it be absolute? Doesn't absolute mean that it goes without saying?

--Avatar

[Fist and Faith]

Absolutely.

[Avatar]

[Gadget nee Jemcheeta]

Wait... are we talking about a moral absolute in that it cannot be questioned, or a moral absolute in that it would be ABSOLUTELY good to follow it?

[Avatar]

Dunno about anyone else, but I was pretty much talking about an absolute that couldn't be questioned. (I think anyway )

--A

[wayfriend]

I think that a moral absolute, if it existed, could not be refuted.

But that doesn't mean that you couldn't ignore it, or dislike it, or choose to act contrary to it.

People do that to other stuff which is irrefutable all the time.

[Avatar]

Yeah, that's what I meant when I was talking abiut the "wilfull rejection".

--A

[Gadget nee Jemcheeta]

Yeah, all the steam has run out on this one. But either way, I still think I should get....
THE LAST WORD (absolutely )

[Fist and Faith]

In your dreams.

[danlo]

The fact that gravity, most solid matter and the police always seem to get their way has always preturbed me...

[Gadget nee Jemcheeta]

Yeah. Especially solid matter... bully.

[Avatar]

At least the police we can do something about.

--A