"Although the particular inclination of the homosexual person is not a sin, it is a more or less strong tendency ordered toward an intrinsic moral evil; and thus the inclination itself must be seen as an objective disorder.Therefore special concern and pastoral attention should be directed toward those who have this condition, lest they be led to believe that the living out of this orientation in homosexual activity is a morally acceptable option. It is not."
"But the proper reaction to crimes committed against homosexual persons should not be to claim that the homosexual condition is not disordered. When such a claim is made and when homosexual activity is consequently condoned, or when civil legislation is introduced to protect behavior to which no one has any conceivable right, neither the Church nor society at large should be surprised when other distorted notions and practices gain ground, and irrational and violent reactions increase."
LETTER TO THE BISHOPS OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH
ON THE PASTORAL CARE OF HOMOSEXUAL PERSONS, 1 OCTOBER 1986
I hear he's a real hardliner on contraception, ordaining women as priests and... well, just about everything really.
..Its been said that the Roman Empire never really died. It just changed to become the Roman Catholic Church. Yet, i can't help seeing Nero playing his fiddle while all around is being sacked with the Conservative Popes in power.
There is no inclusion of the thought that a persons sexual orientaion is determined by the mix of X and Y chromosones,,or genetically predisposed. This is a dark age stance by the Church. Then to continue on about that homosexuality is of such a Moral Sin, that one could possibly Understand how it is that the queers get beat up or terrorised...This is mental and physical thuggery in Practice. But hey, Hitler and Mussolini were only a generation ago.
This is identification of the problem of any institution that will not change. Change is eternal. The current Power Brokers of the RC church have decided to take a non waivering stance. Thats fine. There are plenty of followers who are glad to see that. But all have to deal with the consequences. And thats where i begin having problems. Because a person is the Pope,,everytime he speaks,,hes getting media attention. I mean,,if Pres Bush came out and said,",well, aah,,,,uuumm..them queers deserve a good towing behind the pick up every now and then..'"Geeez you can imagine the Up Roar. But when a Pope ignores science, deliberatley side steps facts,,and gets his message broadcast for free around the world,,Ihave to wonder.
We have some clashes of the Titans going on here.
...A) the establishment of the middle class in 3rd world countrys and the maintaince of it in the developed world is contingent upon the woman joining the work force. With out Birth control this ain't gonna happen.
...B) The spred of HIV in the 3rd world countries is plague grade. Safe Sex education and thus Birth Control education has shown to be of effect in controlling the spred of HIV.
...The modern Popes have chosen to be against Birth Control....In other words,,a happier and healthier society can Only be gained by accessing God Thru The roman catholic Church....Their Dogma allows for that conceit while thousands die from HIV. Yet the Popes are all about pro life.
To be fair, their pro life stance was extended to their position on the Invasion of Iraq by American and British forces. JP said not good. Reminded bush of it when he recently visited. Cajones huh! And Bushes regard for those words was how much?
The point I'm trying to make is,,if the Church decides not to acknowledge the changing times and realities, thats fine. The world does move on without them. Ask Galileo. But Galileo ate a lot of crap for his efforts and it took the Church how many centurys to finally admit? Go rite ahead and make your stance Benny. Just remember,,more people can tell you about Galileo than can tell you about Pope whoever who made life hell for galileo. ........MEL
I certainly agree ith Lurch that the world will move on around the church without much problem. The church will either move with it, or stay behind and face the reality of a waning relevance.
I'm surprised that catholics in Africa are apparently supportive of him, given the AIDS problem, but then, dogma frequently over-rules even practicality.
Oh, IIRC, Gallileo was pardoned three centuries after his death.
Avatar wrote:face the reality of a waning relevance.
What a fantastic line!! SRD coulda wrote that one. If it's not in a really good book, it should be.
*bows, smiling* Thanks Fist.
theDespiser-- I think that it was a fairly deliberate move on the part of the church. This is what they call an "Interim Pope". He's chosen at least partly because he'll die soon, and can be expected not to take the church in any radical directions that will require a lot of adjustment. Don't forget JP II was pope for something like 27 years. I think that the idea is to give themselves a breathing space. No doubt the next pope will be a young radical. They just want a chance to get set before they have to face any serious changes. (IMHO)
Avatar: the next pope will not be a radical. the Church will not change to suit the worlds needs. doctrine will not change. priests will be single and celibate, oh and men. birth control will not be forthcoming. abortion, euthenesia, war will still be bad.
I think that the church will have to change at some point. Priests may remain single and celibate, (why shouldn't they, if that's what they want to do), but I wonder how long they will remain men?
While the stand on abortion may not change, I think that the ones on birth control and euthanasia eventually will. At least I hope that they do. The church may not be willing to change for the world, but the world is going to prove increasingly unwilling to stay the same for the church.
In the Chronicle editorial on Pope Benedict XVI, it notes the Catholic Church's decision to elect a leader with a track record of remaining faithful to church doctrine, rather than giving in to "progressive" trends. "It is for the Catholics to decide whether that is what the church needs at this time," we are told. It may come as a shock, but the church is not a democracy, it's a kingdom. Christ is the king and the pope is His ambassador on Earth. The church is not here to serve the will of the people, but rather the will of God. That is why society and its whimsical and immature determination of what is "moral" does not hold sway
over the teachings of Jesus, nor over the duty of the church to spread that good news. It is not for Catholics to decide. God sent His Spirit as a guide for the church, and He has decided. What is for all Christians to decide is whether to accept or reject that guidance.
dennisrwood wrote:It may come as a shock, but the church is not a democracy, it's a kingdom. Christ is the king and the pope is His ambassador on Earth. The church is not here to serve the will of the people, but rather the will of God...What is for all Christians to decide is whether to accept or reject that guidance.
Very true. And increasingly, the world (christians and non-christians alike) show themselves less and less enamoured of totalitarianism. Which, as your quote so efficiently points out, is what the church is. A totalitarian regime, with the ultimate carrot and stick.
The concept of god, or at least, of organised religion, demands obediance. And it seems that around the world, people are thinking more and more of self-determination. Hell, witness the Spanish (catholic) governments recent stance on the birth-control/preventing AIDS issue.
If the church doesn't change, people will leave it behind, whether in favour of "atheism" or "agnosticism", or simply a less demanding and controlling christianity, I can't guess. But despite the fact that there are around 1 billion catholics, aren't the numbers of the religious dropping in recent years?
yes the numbers are dropping. but why should the Church go against doctrine to keep them? you have two choices, be Catholic or leave. being Catholic means following the dogma and doctrine. the Church has made it easier to join, with the relaxing of the annulment process, but at the same time re-enforcing the doctrine of the Church. if you don't want to follow the rules, go to another church.
dennisrwood wrote:Avatar: the next pope will not be a radical. the Church will not change to suit the worlds needs. doctrine will not change...
I'm glad this thread is in the Close, because the ability to hold thoughts and make statements like this in the face of centuries of history that conflicts with it must be a requirement of religion.
It was moved from another forum.
