Balance

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Indeed, a very good post Myste. :)

Hmm, I'm a bit torn here. On the one hand, I agree that we are part of nature. On the other, I think we are more than capable of "throwing Nature out of whack" as it were.

And I agree with Cj. Hitler thought he was saving his nation, perhaps even the world. He killed (or caused to be killed) millions. And he eradicated unemployment in Germany. It's all a matter of personal definition really. As I said, I don't see any groups who are out to stop people from doing good, simply because they're doing good.

Ask anybody who has been categorised as "evil" whether they want children to starve? Whether they want people to suffer simply for the joy of seeing them suffer? I doubt that such would often be their motivation. It may be a side effect of their intentions, but I don't think such desires are their intentions.

I don't know.

And in regards to Loremasters original post about the universe seeking balance, perhaps that's why we see so much resistance to what we call "good".

We're trying to tip the balance in a very specific direction. And perhaps that attempt is what causes the universe to throw up "balancing" factors, like increases in the things we percieve as "evil"?

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nuk
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Post by nuk »

Avatar wrote: Hmm, I'm a bit torn here. On the one hand, I agree that we are part of nature. On the other, I think we are more than capable of "throwing Nature out of whack" as it were.
When people talk about things that are "natural," they are usually implying that humans are not natural, which is an odd conclusion (assumption?). But if you include us in the natural world, then everything is natural, and the term is useless. Is there a good term for non-human things/events?

How do you throw nature "out of whack"? Was it ever "in whack"? Things have always been changing. We're just changing things so horribly quickly that lots of species are dying out at once.
But we're just raping the living aspect of nature on the Earth. The core and the mantle couldn't care less what we do up here on the surface.
And no, I don't have a point.
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True, things have always been changing, and will always continue to do so. What I meant though, was that because of us, the natural balance in which systems tend to find equlibrium, for example, the number of predator species in relation to the available prey populations, is drastically upset. Sure, nature will find a new balance, the various species will die off, others will fill their niches But I feel that we're making the world less than it has been before.

We're ending some of that amazing wonder and diversity simply because we can. And perhaps, afterall, we're not part of nature? Not anymore at least.

We're an eyeblink in the geological timescale. The planet hasn't even noticed that we're here yet. Or is it slowly noticing?

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Post by Myste »

Avatar wrote:We're an eyeblink in the geological timescale. The planet hasn't even noticed that we're here yet. Or is it slowly noticing?
Well, there's nothing like a nuclear reactor leak to get Nature's attention. The result is deformity, really nasty cancers, gross mutations of genes and bacteria and viruses, and so on. But taken in context, even mutation is natural. The gene that allows adult humans to process lactose (one of the fundamental natural chemicals in dairy products) is actually the result of genetic mutation. Think about it--no other animal on earth still drinks milk after they're weaned. But now we take milk-drinking for granted. (This is also a good point because those of us who are lactose intolerant can point at the rest of you and scream "Mutant! Mutant!")

I mean, mutation is the natural reaction of genetic or cellular material to intense doses of radiation. If you shine a UV light into a fruit flies's eyes, those eyes will change color permanently--and their offspring's eyes will be that new color. The cause of the mutation (e.g., Chernobyl) might not be "natural," but the essential action-reaction of the body to radiation is. It's just not very nice. But then, neither is the coyote who eats your cat, or the cougar who attacks a lone jogger.
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Post by Plissken »

Sure, and if the greenhouse effect gets much worse, a combo of shifting tidal pressures from the melted polar caps and increasing temperatures might reset the whole board.

But, don't worry, it's all natural...
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Post by Nathan »

Myste wrote:If you shine a UV light into a fruit flies's eyes
Sounds like it's already some kind of mutant multifly.

I wonder if we'll manage to get off the planet permanently before the next world-emcompassing, unsurvivable (perhaps induced by us) ice-age. If not, I wonder if anything will be left of our achievements when (if) the next sentient species evolves on Earth.
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Post by Myste »

Plissken wrote:Sure, and if the greenhouse effect gets much worse, a combo of shifting tidal pressures from the melted polar caps and increasing temperatures might reset the whole board.

But, don't worry, it's all natural...
Exactly. Mother Nature's way of ridding herself of a dangerous infection. The increased emissions of greenhouse gases caused by human technology are still governed by the laws of Nature--and Physics, for that matter. Greenhouses gases increase, Earth's climate changes. Earth gets warmer, ice caps melt. Ice caps melt, we all drown.

The unnatural thing about increased emissions and the other ways humanity is affecting nature is that we're putting the environment that sustains our species at risk--hence endangering our own species survival. No other species on earth does this (not even lemmings, whose seeming suicidal tendencies are actually nothing of the sort). We can make the planet unlivable for ourselves, and we're doing it, too, at an alarming rate. But Nature will still be Nature--the laws that govern it will continue to govern it--long after we've greenhouse-gassed ourselves out of existence.

I think the problem is that humans can look ahead into the future further than any other animal we know of, and yet most of us can't see far enough ahead to understand the actual consequences of our actions. Most other animals live from meal to meal, on instinct: they don't want anything except to survive, except in an unconscious or instinctive way. Humans have fully developed senses of aquisitiveness; we create things to want, and then make plans for how to get what we want. Those plans often seem long-term to us: let's drill in ANWR, and in ten years we'll no longer be dependent on foreign oil. That makes sense; who wants to be dependent on foreign oil? Solving the political/economic problem might help us for fifty years or more--that's a long time in terms of the individual human life span. But if we want our species to survive in the truly long-term--the way other species, like alligators or ostriches, have--we need to consider the environmental ramifications of our actions.

Humans can't screw up Nature. It is what it is. But we can make our environment unlivable for our species. And IMHO, that's what we're doing.
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Post by Avatar »

Great Post Myste. :)

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